SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[zamint3]

You lose beakers/gold to rounding in BTS too. The difference is that the entire empire is counted before it rounds down, whereas it used to be per city.

OK -Thanks, actually I think I read that somewhere..

This means, unless total commerce is divisible by 10, you should always run 0% or 100% research or you will lose 1 commerce per turn.
I was quite lucky then, having total commerce of 30 for 4 turns.

- after first library it gets more complicated.

 

[leif erikson]

Just checked and we are currently losing 0.35 beakers per turn to rounding at 90%. Where is the Library in the build order, should we go to 0% until it is built?

I do not think we have answered z3's question on The Oracle build. Should we risk it or not? If not, what tech priority should we use?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Do we stand to gain anything from aborting the attemp at CS sling? Whether we sling or not CS should have high priority.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We would gain the hammers put into the Oracle for use toward other builds, and we would avoid researching religious techs that should be possible to trade for later while researching something perhaps more useful immediately. Don't think this is an easy call at all.

Looked at save. Some thoughts:

If we go for Oracle, should consider settling marble city next, but build wonder in St. Pete.

If we are isolated on the continent with France, then we should plan to take Paris early. City site 2S of marble would make both those objectives possibilities.

We seem to be located high in the northern hemisphere, so chariot should probably spend turns making sure that there is no land off the coast of the peninsula.

Think working cows would be better than clams in Moscow.

Overflow from settler into chariot (or wkbt) to explore land to our north?

 

[zamint3]

Just checked and we are currently losing 0.35 beakers per turn to rounding at 90%. Where is the Library in the build order, should we go to 0% until it is built?

Library is built.
If we work the cow in stead of the clams we will loose 0.5 beakers per turn at 100% and 0 gold, at 90 % we will loose 0 beakers but 0.9 gold per turn.

If we go for Oracle, should consider settling marble city next, but build wonder in St. Pete.

If we are isolated on the continent with France, then we should plan to take Paris early. City site 2S of marble would make both those objectives possibilities.

If my math is correct it will take two workers 17 turns to get the marble on line and quite a few more to get that city productive and we'll need masonry.

We could have Priesthood in 8 turns and with 2 chops and maybe a whip we could have Oracle in 13-15 turns?

It is no easy call.

 

[The-Hawk]

I suppose gold will go to the team that makes the most bold risks. Then again, last place for the team that takes risks that turn out bad .

I'm not sure CoL or one of the others is enough of a prize for the risk. Our tech rate is high with 2 golds, how many turns do we gain versus teching CoL directly? If we can't see a way to CS, I think I'd put my hammers into REX.

Tough call.

 

[Frederiksberg]

My point is that CS is required to leverage the choice of capital. If we decide to abandon the Oracle then perhaps we should research CS via Currency-CoL.

 

[leif erikson]

My point is that CS is required to leverage the choice of capital. If we decide to abandon the Oracle then perhaps we should research CS via Currency-CoL.

This is a very good point. We need to get to CS anyway, quickly.

Perhaps we should consider pursuing the Oracle, chopping it, (Is this why you recommend building in St.Pete CP?) and if we make it, taking the best tech available. If we are working on CoL's, then perhaps that tech is Currency, which would reduce the cost of CS when CoL's is done, should we need to self-research it?

I suppose gold will go to the team that makes the most bold risks. Then again, last place for the team that takes risks that turn out bad .

We hemmed and hawed last game over taking ZY's capital and played it safe. What Hawk says is true, so we may as well soar with the Hawk or go down with style...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Z's calculations do suggest that utilizing the marble is questionable; however, we likely will want a coastal city quickly accessing France, so it still may make sense to settle south of the marble. Moreover, marble in 17 turns may not be a killer if we have the forests pre-chopped.

This is a very good point. We need to get to CS anyway, quickly. Concur, question is whether we want to research religious techs and chop Oracle for another tech. Perhaps we should consider pursuing the Oracle, chopping it, (Is this why you recommend building in St.Pete CP? -- No, that site seemed the only viable alternative for several reasons.) and if we make it, taking the best tech available. If we are working on CoL's, then perhaps that tech is Currency (or Construction to take Paris with cats and WEs), which would reduce the cost of CS when CoL's is done, should we need to self-research it?

We hemmed and hawed last game over taking ZY's capital and played it safe. What Hawk says is true, so we may as well soar with the Hawk or go down with style...

Rexing and war with France deserves serious consideration. That might best be accomplished by using chops in St. Pete for workers and settling near cows first as planned and using worker turns to utilize ivory quickly.

 

[leif erikson]

Concur, question is whether we want to research religious techs and chop Oracle for another tech.

Unless we can trade for the religious tech, not sure I see how else we get to Priesthood?

No, that site seemed the only viable alternative for several reasons.

I thought we had figured out that St. Pete was best at Workers and units until we could improve its tiles?

or Construction to take Paris with cats and WEs

We also would need Masonry to get Construction and we would need HBR to use War Elephants.

Rexing and war with France deserves serious consideration. That might best be accomplished by using chops in St. Pete for workers and settling near cows first as planned and using worker turns to utilize ivory quickly.

Seems that continuing to Oracle is fairly consistent with this?

I agree with you that most of our successful games involved early war to eliminate a nearby opponent, although in this game we do need to allow them to survive. The major difference here seems to be what chops are used for, Oracle or units? Should we continue towards Oracle and decide when we have Priesthood what the best options are or do REX and early war require that we change tech path now to Masonry and HBR with an both eyes towards Construction?

 

[zamint3]

@ leif: Maybe you should post the roster, I didn't expect to keep playing.

 

[leif erikson]

@ leif: Maybe you should post the roster, I didn't expect to keep playing.

Sorry about that, I thought you were pausing for a question.

Moving us along.

Updated Roster: as of post 294
Active:
Conquistador63 - UP
Ronnie1 - On Deck
Cactus Pete
leif
Mad Professor
Grifftavian
zamint3 Nice work.

Lurker:
da_Vinci
Frederiksberg
Rusten
The-Hawk

 

[Conquistador 63]

Technically, I got the save and am available to play at anytime over the next few days, but couldn't figure out if a consensus already emerged from the recent discussion.

To be honest, I am clueless about what am I supposed to do now. I'll wait for further instructions.

 

[leif erikson]

To be honest, I am clueless about what am I supposed to do now. I'll wait for further instructions.

Please have a look at the save and the discussion. Weigh the different ideas and consider what you think the best course would be. If you have questions about what the different ideas are or need clarification of the pro's or con's of an idea, please post and we will try to help to sort things out. If you need help testing a certain course, please let us know.

Once you are satisfied with the info you have (if that ever happens, fog of war and all), then let's put together a plan of what to do.
Simple?

It has been my experience that during discussion all kinds of crazy ideas may appear. Working through them, we often find ways to move ahead that may not have been considered before. Maybe we will find such a gem? Let's hope so...

 

[Cactus Pete]

No need to rush back into action, 63. Think we need to explore further the praticality of utilizing the marble to get the Oracle. If that's not a good option, then my instinct would be to rex, explore the continent further, and prepare to attack France.

(Leaving tomorrow afternoon and will be out of touch for two days. Will try to contribute meaningfully when I return, but will be leaving again on Wednesday for about ten days, so probably need to move me down on the roster.)

 

[leif erikson]

Roster updated.

Please have a fun and safe trip. Look forward to your return.

 

[Mad Professor]

Sorry for the silence and no testing when I said I would. Life happened. Hope to be more visible again soon.

 

[zamint3]

I like the idea of gambling for CS - so I played around with CP's suggestion of a marble city

I redid the math and yes 17 turns it'll take to bring marble on line and then 2-3 turns to chop/build Oracle with prechopped forests in Moscow, but we can't research CoL in 19 turns with Masonry. With no trading it will probably take 22-24 turns.

Marble city as city4
If we build city3 as planned and after that Marble city on the ruins N of the rice we can have marble on line in 19-20 turns and Oracle 2 turns later with prechops.
This means getting the next settler out of Moscow in 10 turns and then 5 turns of traveling and 4 turns to build the quarry with two workers.

Pros: The two cities will be productive from the start. City3 can produce a worker in 13-15 turns with some help from the worker out of St. Pete.
The two workers will have time to scrub the rice (or the deer) before scrubbing the marble and they don't need to wait for the border to pop before they can build the quarry, so city4 will grow from the start, it'll be connected by river to city3 and our capital. Long term N of rice might be better than 2S of marble.

Cons: City4 will not be on the coast.

If we go for CS-sling with marble it will be delayed 3 turns (masonry) no matter what!!
There are other nice wonders that need marble, and both city sites should be able to whip some workers.
Of course we could rex faster if we don't go for marble now.

 

[zamint3]

Simple?

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm away from the game at the moment, but I took the time to read as thoroughly as possible the last 5 pages of this thread. Let's see if I got an accurate feel of the prevailing opinions.

. A run for CS from Oracle seems to have wide approval, although The Hawk thinks it is a lost cause. Since we're @t68, Gandhi already has PH and built Oracle t96 in a test save, it's hard for me to disagree with him, but OTOH we still need Med/PH for CoL then CS even if we do this the slow way, so not much to lose beaker-wise.

. Last test save I saw posted was Leif's in post #239. Is there another one available, maybe replayed up to current point? Zamint?

Most times I built the Oracle without Marble. Have we tested or otherwise came to the conclusion that connecting Marble will delay it (because of the need to tech Masonry)? If so, I would not risk it given the tight schedule.