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SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

I wonder if the galley has time to sneak up and see about seafood? Will tile-count and report back ASAP.

Yes, we do have time. The next settler whips T124, so Ferry has time to go four tiles north of its present location and return to one tile west of its current location by T120, and then be back on station to get the settler for MC with no loss of time settling MC or BF. That will see most of the seafood possibilities for the silk tile. Meanwhile, we may as well unload the settler on the desert as planned.
 
Using the CTRL+"left arrow" and "right arrow" you can see that there is no more land to the north of the forests on Paired Clam island.
 

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Couldn't the worker just take a couple of turns to explore north?

There's currently a galley plan that sweeps back here after the worker has exactly time for mine and workshop. The galley is very busy, so compromising that is costly.

The current plan is to settle on the desert right?

No, desert was the original plan. bcool suggested SE of Phill and that got accepted.

This still leaves room for a future city up there if we do find seafood, the question is if there is so much seafood up there that we would settle there *before* 2 clams. Seems unlikely.

Agreed. Even if there is something tasty up there, the PC site as planned is fine to settle.

Perhaps Thorn could take a decent length break here for discussion?

I don't see a need to do that.
 
Using the CTRL+"left arrow" and "right arrow" you can see that there is no more land to the north of the forests on Paired Clam island.

Indeed, good thought. The galley does have time to move four tiles clockwise around the island (leaving an exploration gap to the NW), and then back towards the settler pickup-point SE of CC. This will find almost all possible seafood for the silk city.

By the way, using the resource display (Ctrl-R) is good for screenshots, so that people are sure to see the resources.

Also silk is not a priority before we get Calendar, and that's a good while away too!
 
I made it! Nothing unexpected happened the last two turns. :)

Here's the link to the final save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/Gypsy_Kings_SG013_BC1050_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

And here is the autolog:
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 108/750 (1300 BC) [30-Mar-2011 17:57:32]
Research begun: Aesthetics (23 Turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Fish Hills
Clam Chowder grows to size 5
Fish Hills grows to size 4
Fish Hills finishes: Work Boat

Turn 109/750 (1275 BC) [30-Mar-2011 18:02:24]
Fish Hills begins: The Pyramids (47 turns)
A Mine was built near Stone Mountain
Clam Chowder begins: Settler (9 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 43 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Fish Hills

Turn 110/750 (1250 BC) [30-Mar-2011 18:07:19]
Clam Chowder begins: Settler (9 turns)
Clam Chowder begins: Forge (35 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 64 in the bank

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder grows to size 6

Turn 111/750 (1225 BC) [30-Mar-2011 18:09:54]
Clam Chowder begins: Settler (8 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 85 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Clam Chowder

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Joao II of Portugal

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 112/750 (1200 BC) [30-Mar-2011 19:56:48]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 106 in the bank

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 113/750 (1175 BC) [30-Mar-2011 20:25:30]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 127 in the bank

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder finishes: Settler
Fish Hills's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Isabella of Spain

Turn 114/750 (1150 BC) [30-Mar-2011 20:25:30]
Clam Chowder begins: Forge (134 turns)

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 114/750 (1150 BC) [30-Mar-2011 21:23:34]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 148 in the bank

Turn 115/750 (1125 BC) [30-Mar-2011 21:23:34]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 169 in the bank

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder grows to size 4

Turn 116/750 (1100 BC) [30-Mar-2011 21:26:38]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 190 in the bank

After End Turn:
Stone Mountain finishes: Monument

Turn 117/750 (1075 BC) [30-Mar-2011 22:35:42]
Paris founded
Paired Clams begins: Lighthouse (45 turns)
Stone Mountain begins: Work Boat (9 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 20 per turn, 211 in the bank

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder grows to size 5


And here is the Turn Session log:
Spoiler :

Turn 113, 1175 BC: The borders of Fish Hills have expanded!

Turn 116, 1100 BC: Clam Chowder has grown to size 4.
Turn 116, 1100 BC: Clam Chowder can hurry Forge for 2? with 13? overflow and +1? for 40 turns.
Turn 116, 1100 BC: You have constructed a Monument in Stone Mountain. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 117, 1075 BC: Fish Hills will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 117, 1075 BC: Paired Clams has been founded.
Turn 117, 1075 BC: Clam Chowder will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 117, 1075 BC: Fish Hills will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 117, 1075 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 118, 1050 BC: Clam Chowder has grown to size 5.
 
Nice work :) Looking forward to getting a chance to open up the save.

I don't suppose you have time to take a smattering of screenshots of the interior of each of our cities and whatever else you might find interesting?
 
Well done Thorn.

One minor glitch - we aren't working the Phill in PC like the plan said, so we'll be about one turn slow in getting out our lighthouse.

Crabby now comes with fur, which (if we get Hunting somehow - 3 turns to tech ourselves) gives us +1:) in our hard-whipped wonder-building cities. To me, that suggests settling Crabby in the next two cities, rather than Bronzed Fish. The fur+crab is more useful faster than the fish+bronze. Then probably Bronzed Fish. Then probably the fur+fish+deer site NW of Crabby before Piggery.

I suggest:
  1. ferry back to CC to pick up settler T125
  2. ferry to north of main island to pick up FH settler T128
  3. plant crabby T129, ferry lurks nearby
  4. ferry transfers FH T134 worker to crabby
  5. that worker can mark time with a few 4-turn roads, by about T139 we want to have hunting for a camp
  6. ferry runs to fetch PC worker T138 (who's had 21 turns to do mine-6 road-3 workshop-9 road-3)
  7. ferry runs the PC worker back to MC (starts work T145)
  8. possibly we use our extra :) to whip another worker to get the marble out in better time, possibly we help the Crabby worker finish the camp and move both workers to MC
  9. meanwhile the Crabby worker is plowing through camps, roads, chopping, workshops, etc.

There is an island NW of PC, as we knew from the camera-flying.

The silk site doesn't have seafood so far.

The GLH city also has GW, so that's a more attractive target - double XP while they hurl themselves on it to try to take it back.

Judging from the espionage ratios - England 15/36, Portugal 28/8, Spain 2/4 (with our spending second) - Vicky knows at least one other person, Joao probably just met his second other person, and Izzy seems to know lots of people. We have enough EPs on Vicky to see her demographics and graphs, I suggest we shuffle around our EP allocation to see some others, too.

Cook has made great progress east. Vicky has lots of nice-looking land nearby.

Magellan has found a nice city site, but got trapped in a dead end :cry: oh well.

No more land sighted around Bronzed Fish

Each land tile is worth just under 0.11% for Domination.

Various screenshots attached.
 

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One minor glitch - we aren't working the Phill in PC like the plan said, so we'll be about one turn slow in getting out our lighthouse.

... but that shows a profit! We were going to get the lighthouse up one turn faster, but that turn is spent working the unimproved clam for 3:food:2:commerce:. Instead, we're working two turns of clam for 4:food:4:commerce: early, and one more turn of the Pmine (4:hammers:) instead of two turns on the Phill (4:hammers:). So we show a profit of 1:food: and 2:commerce: from Thorn's choice!

It's not worth extending this process, because T129 we get a WB from SM and we want to be done working the Pmine by then. There's no spare room any more.
 
Well done Thorn! I very good turnset given all that happened and the length of planning time that went into it. I'm sure every turnset you play going forward will be easier and more fun.

The Roster order is

mabraham = UP NOW
adrianj = on deck
Ronnie1 = in the hole
bcool = waiting
grifftavian = waiting
Thorn = just played!!! :goodjob:
da_Vinci = skipped by request....unless something changed over the length of the last set
 
Re: paired clams Happy accidents wonderful :) Good job Thorn :)

There is juicy land to the East... (That Clams, Fish, Wheat might make a nice Globe Theater if we can settle that far away in time...) (also nice to have it closer to the action if at all possible too)

Looks like the GLH is likely on the other side of the world from us since we haven't met the AI with it. The test game is very deceptive in that regard.
 
The Roster order is

mabraham = UP NOW
adrianj = on deck
Ronnie1 = in the hole
bcool = waiting
grifftavian = waiting
Thorn = just played!!! :goodjob:
da_Vinci = skipped by request....unless something changed over the length of the last set
The skip is still on ... the medical issues are resolving, but now I am in catch-up mode in several facets of real life.

Keep up the good work!

dV
 
Crabby now comes with fur, which (if we get Hunting somehow - 3 turns to tech ourselves) gives us +1 in our hard-whipped wonder-building cities. To me, that suggests settling Crabby in the next two cities, rather than Bronzed Fish. The fur+crab is more useful faster than the fish+bronze. Then probably Bronzed Fish. Then probably the fur+fish+deer site NW of Crabby before Piggery.

I suggest:
ferry back to CC to pick up settler T125
ferry to north of main island to pick up FH settler T128
plant crabby T129, ferry lurks nearby
ferry transfers FH T134 worker to crabby
that worker can mark time with a few 4-turn roads, by about T139 we want to have hunting for a camp
ferry runs to fetch PC worker T138 (who's had 21 turns to do mine-6 road-3 workshop-9 road-3)
ferry runs the PC worker back to MC (starts work T145)
possibly we use our extra to whip another worker to get the marble out in better time, possibly we help the Crabby worker finish the camp and move both workers to MC
meanwhile the Crabby worker is plowing through camps, roads, chopping, workshops, etc.

The real game just blew all our careful planning :) Yes we need to look again at the plan. I need to play test to really assess what is best. I can't look at the spreadsheets and see the game, yet.

Not sure if we will be able to research hunting ourselves to make the fur useful to us before T150... If we research it ourselves we delay the Great Library, but maybe this means near the T150 mark we whip a trireme and then a worker with max OF in the capital into the Great Library earlier... Researching hunting might make sense. Earliest fur would come online is...T147? How long does a tundra epic speed camp take?
 
Here is a screenshot from NW of PC looking SE. There is another island with at least 1 forest on it. Pretty sure there is galley access from 1W of the galley location now.

There is more land west of the single tile desert hill island in the west also, but I can't tell how close it is. Probably not accessible by galley unless it is from the northern island moving SW.

I agree that Crabby Furs is a better 2nd option than Bronzed Fish.

In general, I think we need to REX out cities ASAP, there seems to be a lot of decent sites available.
 
Not sure if we will be able to research hunting ourselves to make the fur useful to us before T150... If we research it ourselves we delay the Great Library, but maybe this means near the T150 mark we whip a trireme and then a worker with max OF in the capital into the Great Library earlier... Researching hunting might make sense. Earliest fur would come online is...T147? How long does a tundra epic speed camp take?

We might well trade for hunting in the relevant 20-turn interval.

From a worldbuilder test, tundra epic camp is 8 turns, road is 4 turns.
 
There is juicy land to the East... (That Clams, Fish, Wheat might make a nice Globe Theater if we can settle that far away in time...)

Wow, ambitious. (I've said that about bcool's ideas before!) We'd have to arrange two galleys carrying settler, worker and two defensive units, and trireme escort, and preferably a workboat or two. It'd have to build lighthouse, granary, courthouse, barracks, theatre, GT by about T230-250. It'd cost quite a bit to support, but we'd be generating our draft units close to what might prove to be the/a sphere of action. Much will depend on what we find out about Lizzy's continent and the one in question.

I think we should put an exploring trireme (or maybe workboat) to go north around Lizzy's continent on the drawing board.

Detailed thoughts about such a GT city
I'd settle 1N of fish. Note that the wheat has fresh water from an inland lake 1NE, so three of the grassland tiles around this site can be farmed, so at size 6 we work fish+clams+wheat+3farms for a :food: excess of 15, which is one larger than even CC can ever do. There's a Ghill in the fog, and I think another plains and grassland.

Assuming Maths+Caste+Guilds but not Music, infinite :health: and happy at size 9, sending trireme, 2 workboats and 2 galleys with settler, worker and two defensive units I can spreadsheet-build LH, granary, CH, barracks, theatre, GT in 70 turns. This doesn't build the wheat farm until late, and does spend time running citizens before workshops get built.

If I send two workers, then there's time for the wheat farm and faster growth to 9 and GT in 54 turns. The workers have had time to workshop both plains and all four grassland, and start replacing those with farms for the drafting phase. A third worker would only make this a few turns faster, I expect.

Both of those would be faster if I skipped the barracks and built it after the drafting starts. A forge at 180:hammers: would pay back its hammers in 36 turns (25% of 21:hammers: sustainable at size 8). That might work in the one-worker case, but is too slow in the two-worker case.

Travelling takes 14.5 galley turns from outside FH, so we found 16 turns after departure. We'd have to send a scout earlier - lone galley with archer and worker? (Dump the passengers off if we spot a barb galley.) So to make this plan work (sending two workers) by T230, the site needs to be free at T176 and we have to set off by T160 with at least galley+trireme+settler+worker, having already sent galley+worker+warrior, and something to scout Vicky's island from the north. Two workboats have to get there one way or another. We'd have to follow up with more defenders.

We should WorldBuilder how much that city will cost to maintain.

We can do all the above, but it will slow down the local settling. Is all this worth it, in order to keep CC teching and FH working as a :hammers:-pump efficiently during the drafting phase?

I think it might be worth it. If that land mass does not have an AI on it, then we probably only have to race Vicky, and she has a bunch of land on her own landmass to settle. (Will she settle off-island before her island is full?) If she does settle her island fast, we might be able to use her roads. She'll also be fogbusting, so we might get away with not sending a trireme escort, or having a north-scouting workboat hide in London until useful. We'd have to scout Vicky from the north ASAP to be able to make the relevant decisions in time.
 
I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves here maybe. I agree the site is quite attractive, however, we have bitten off a pretty big bite already.

I slept on some options and was thinking about something Duckweed wrote in a recent spoiler. I will paraphrase.....is any build "X" better than a "settler" next? I think maybe we need to get some settlers out of some other cities. I am leaning more towards bc's faster REX plan. We could put settlers in the que in PC once we have 2 nets and our lighthouse and just let them build out. At size 3 working 2*nets and the PHM, we build a settler every 14 turns. IMO, that is pretty consistent growth, planting a new city every 14 turns just from 1 city. This allows our other cities to provide the necessary resources for new cities to be productive right away also.

I also think I completely missed my guess as to map layout. If Isabella is separated and to our west with a few other civs as was suggested, then that means we are effectively surrounded by AI at this point. We need to expand in ALL directions! My early guess was that we would be able to expand in 1 direction towards the bulk of the AI's, I now feel this is NOT the case.

In the short run, I think we need to focus on getting our close by resource cities up and running.

EDIT: I just noticed we are NOT getting any foreign trade routes, this is going to slow down our tech rate as compared to the test game because we get those routes there. I am not totally sure WHY we aren't getting those routes. I think it is because both Vicky and Izzy must have better options available, meaning there are larger cities already connected to their respective networks. Does keeping our cites small affect us in a negative way here?
 
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