LC:
So, I'm not sure what you want me to do now. Should I try and further optimize my version of the PPP with some of these minor points that I have brought up?
Should I instead look at a copy of your current version of your PPP and then see where the Science Slider values will equally apply to your approach, then correct the ones that do not apply? I could also possibly simultaneously look for minor potential improvements, such as whipping a turn sooner or later for some build items.
Most of the efficiencies that I added to my version of the PPP were proven to be the best approaches of the options that I compared against. However, I did not try to perform such an effort for the Gold City approach, since it's really hard to measure... will an earlier amount of Commerce help a lot? Will an earlier Library help more? The scope of the timeline involved in the comparison is large, which is one of the main reasons why I have yet to try and compare the approaches--a lack of time.
Now, you mentioned earlier the following text, and I assumed that you were talking about one of mdy's test runs, but I will discuss some of the same comments relative to my latest uploaded "updated PPP" spreadsheet (which, you, as the Active player, are free to completely ignore, especially if you think that you have a better approach):
LowtherCastle said:
I tested your Gold build order and it puts the GS around T146 or something like that, which to me is uncomfortably late. I just don't see anything good about that build order, because I'm regaining the lost food with the early granary, the whip happiness is also almost gone because the whip is so early, and the research is much better. A warrior in Paris might turbo-charge Gold even more, at the expense of getting the Pyramids a turn or two later.
The singular advantage that I see to your approach is getting writing 1t sooner, which doesn't seem to do us any good (I still got CoL 3t sooner than Dhoom). Your solution hangs up when trying to puts hammers into the library pre-poprush. That's why I whip the lh--so we can immediately 2pop the lib at pop4. Your solution also gains fewer coins than one might think, because I'm working the clams at pop3 much sooner. And the hammers from working the gold have to catch up with the granary whip hammers.
I say "somewhat" like mine, because there are differences. For example, my Gold City, as of the Turn 122, 950 BC saved game, is content to keep working 2 Scientist Specialists while growing while working the Gold square. The Great Scientist is due in 17 turns, which would put it at Turn 122 + 17 = Turn 139, 525 BC, the same date that is highlighted in the latest version of the PPP that you gave to us. Perhaps you have improved upon that date but I have yet to see the updated spreadsheet, if one exists.
As for the Granary, I'm not even sure anymore what you're doing. The PPP seems to say that you will work both Seafood on Turn 89, 1775 BC. In so doing, you will grow to Size 3 but then will pop-whip the Granary 2 turns later at a very inefficient time.
Previously, I thought that you'd continued to work the Fish + the Gold while staying at Size 2, then whipped the Granary down to Size 1 and only worked the Gold for one turn... in that the PPP says "wk gold" on Turn 91, 1725 BC. Doing so would be the correct approach, so that you'd get more overflow Food when working the Fish again the next turn. However, now I am guessing that you meant "work the Fish and the Gold." If the latter is true, and you are actually whipping shortly after arriving at City Size 3, then I really question the timing of the whipping action.
But, then I see on Turn 92, 1700 BC, that you are saying "fish," as though you HAD whipped down to Size 1 and now want to grow, which is supported by what it says on Turn 93, 1675 BC.
So, I am confused why the PPP mentions that you would "wk 2seafd" on Turn 89, 1775 BC, since doing so doesn't seem to match up with what happens on the next few turns.
Really, it sounds like a combination of two approaches and maybe some extra text got left in there?
I would tend to think that if the Turn 89, 1775 BC line were changed from "wk 2seafd" to "wk fish + gold," then the rest of your PPP's items would work together with each other a lot better.
Whipping before growing to Size 3 without growing on 2 Seafood at Size 2 would give more whipping overflow. If we instead wanted to whip at Size 3, we should wait a bit longer, even if it means incurring a bit longer period of Whipping Unhappiness.
But, until I understand what you're doing for certain, I can't even consider doing some sort of a comparison.
I see The Pyramids' date as being quite flexible, so delaying it by a few turns doesn't sound like a terrible thing to me. Delaying it many turns, though, makes me question whether we should build it at all, but I don't see why we can't fit in a Warrior 2 build item in Paris.
That bit about Writing 1 turn sooner is consistent with my game, which can provide a minor benefit if you can find a path to Vicky between now and then.
In my approach, we also whip the Lighthouse into the Library, but I had been using the Forest Chop plus Hammers that were manually-obtained from the Gold Mine in order to complete the Granary. In so doing, my Whipping Unhappiness would wear off sooner, but it does mean a later Library. The later Library DOES NOT affect the Great Scientist's arrival date, which was the part that I was trying to optimize. I was not really paying attention to optimizing Code of Laws' date, but if I were to do so, I'd probably focus on areas of the game other than Gold City's Library.
THAT SAID, I could easily make Gold City's Library a 3-pop-whip and get a "free" Work Boat out of the deal--which would delay the Great Scientist but could mean getting more Commerce out of Marble City by allowing it to grow faster in order to work the second Clam faster.
So, it depends upon what area of the turnset that we want to focus on... if the Great Scientist can come out a bit later, then I can aim to focus on getting Code of Laws out faster. If the Great Scientist's date is not flexible, then other possibilities exist, such as delaying Warrior 2 in Paris even further while growing faster by working Coast squares over GH Mines like you did.
I'm not exactly sure about your whipping approach for Gold City anymore, but if you're growing to Size 3 by working 2 Seafood and then whippiing the Granary, you're getting virtually no free Food in the Granary for quite some time. If, instead, you're whipping while at Size 2 down to Size 1, then you do get a bit of free Food in the Granary, but not much. My approach has us gaining none from growing to Size 2 to Size 3 but we gain nearly the maximum amount of free Food when we grow the first time after owning the Granary, making any of those approaches come close to balancing each other out (i.e. if I grow without a Granary and you grow with only a small amount free Food in the Granary but have to stagnate for 1 turn in order to get it [or start with an empty Foodbox from whipping from Size 3 to Size 2], then, you too, have roughly the equivalent of a nearly-empty amount of Food stored in the Granary).
If I understood what your Granary whipping timing was, I think that we could optimize it... I seem to remember doing so and I believe that if your PPP had its Turn 89, 1775 BC changed from "wk 2seafd" to "wk fish + gold," then, given the earliest whip possible in order to have the shorted amount of Whipping Unhappiness from whipping 3 build items, I'd say that we'd have the most efficient approach possible. My "updated PPP" simply changes the rules so that we only have to whip 2 build items, but in so doing means that the Library will be whipped later.
Even better than both of our approaches in terms of Food gained would be to grow manually like in my approach but to whip the Granary instead of manually-completing it; the downside is that we'd have a larger amount of Whipping Unhappiness then either of our two approaches.
As for working the Clam sooner, I think that our approaches are roughly similar, regardless of which approach you are using of the two that I am guessing at you having used. The biggest differences are that my "updated PPP" version works the Gold for raw Hammers while you get your Hammers from whipping a 3rd build item, and that I get more raw Commerce overall but you get a sooner Library for multiplying some of that City's Commerce for 3 additional turns.
I'm very tempted to run the "raw numbers" (i.e. base Commerce ignoring potential bonus Flasks, plus giving you credit for an additional floor[Commerce * .25] for 3 turns, as well as looking at the Food and Hammers obtained, then also considering any Whipping Unhappiness. Then, I think that we'd even give you a Warrior 2 to sit in the City, since you seem amenable to building Warrior 2 in Paris. Then, we should be able to compare the two approaches by filtering out a lot of the random noise (i.e. you potentially getting bonus Flasks on Masonry, me emphasizing Hammers over Commerce in Paris, etc). It's just that first I have to be certain what your approach is before I can compare against it.
I'm going to be busy much of this evening, though, so I won't be able to get to a comparison until after several hours from now, and only after you clarify your approach for Gold City's early micro will I make such an attempt.
If you don't count the turns as being relative to when the Cities were founded but by game turn, then the Workers are ahead of the PPP, even without counting this extra partial-Workshopping.
xppost
Obviously, an "earlier Library" will have 0 impact for the turns that we're at 0% Science, particularly since we must have run the same amount of Scientists over time in order to get the Great Scientist on the same turn.
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+1 tech@0power (mysticism?)
