SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

Right. Don't forget Gold also needs the clam nets...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Yes, we can overflow Settler 3's Hammers into Worker 2 and still be able to complete the Work Boat for Gold City's Clam.

Yes, overflowing the Hammers from both Settlers 3 and 4 into Worker 2 does seem to get us going a bit faster on getting Stone City going. No, I have not run the numbers to compare the scenarios yet. However, it looks like we've got Stone City up a bit faster than in the PPP, which means that we're also starting on Quarrying the Stone a bit faster, since the only 2 turns that I spent building a Worker were the 2 turns of "catching overflow" from Settlers 3 and 4.

As we saw with Marble City, getting the City set up helped us out, so the same is probably true for focusing on getting Stone City (Setlter 4) and its Worker (Worker 2) completed, even if there is a minor cost for "stagnating" the City for 2 turns when catching Hammer overflow from each of Settlers 3 and 4 into Worker 2. But, that's just a guess... we should probably check out the numbers.



Gold City does appear to get unhappy for a bit, but not for too long, so we can probably skip building a Warrior in Paris--but maybe building one would be worth it (which probably only delays Worker 2 by 1 turn, but I'm not certain).

I feel that for Gold City, when we hire Scientist 1 on Turn 111 (I think that maybe I did it on Turn 112 because I was randomly letting the Science Slider go and got Writing 1 turn later as a result), we should be able to grow to Size 4 very quickly, within a turn or two. At Size 4, since we're at our Happiness cap, I think that we should be working Fish + Gold + 2 Scientists.

Only if we found Confucianism do I see us possibly wanting to "let up" on having 2 Scientist Specialists hired, so as to get our Great Scientist ASAP in case we will need to take Philosophy just for our State Religion. If an AI takes Confucianism and gets one of Alpha or Math in trade for the other one of those two, it can and WILL (well, if the AI is Sitting Bull or other Philosophical AIs, perhaps other AIs too) Lightbulb Philosophy.


The Monument looks like it can be delayed until after Settler 4 + Worker 2. However, I think that in order to be able to 4-pop-whip a Forge, we will need to manually-build the Monument next. What's the point of a 4-pop-whip again? Is it to maximize Hammer overflow into The Pyramids?

The PPP shows us working on a Library in Paris on Turn 104 for one turn... I don't understand why... The Oracle should have been completed so a Forge could have been started... maybe it's because we don't want to turn the Forge into a 3-pop-whip and we'd risk doing so if we didn't insert another build item temporarily like the Library? Anyway, the Hammers values will be off from what was in the PPP, but it would be nice to understand the reasoning behind the apparent 1 turn worth of building a Library in Paris, so that the same mentality can be followed.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The PPP shows us working on a Library in Paris on Turn 104 for one turn... I don't understand why... The Oracle should have been completed so a Forge could have been started... maybe it's because we don't want to turn the Forge into a 3-pop-whip and we'd risk doing so if we didn't insert another build item temporarily like the Library? Anyway, the Hammers values will be off from what was in the PPP, but it would be nice to understand the reasoning behind the apparent 1 turn worth of building a Library in Paris, so that the same mentality can be followed.

Lots of good stuff, Dhoom. Thanks.

In my first test, we had MC and were able to OF into the forge. For some reason in the second test, the OF came a turn earlier, so I had to put it into the library. I was planning to correct that if possible, because that also has the negative consequence of complicating max OF from the library poprush into the Pyramids, since the forge whips are worth 56h. Much easier is 2t of 10h into the library pre-build.

I 4popped the forge to get it done asap, I suppose. I don't remember the details of my rationale and I don't remember if I 3popped or 4popped in the first test, in which I didn't put the previous OF into the library for 1t. Maybe it was to maximize the OF and get Paris regrowing asap.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I tested teh changes Dhoom suggested and tried no mounument on both Paris and Gold. It is workable, to a degree. Somehow the GS woundup being a turn later, rather than sooner. I guess because I took 5t with only 1sci to grow to pop5 just in time for the happiness shift. In Paris I whipped the Pigs worker before the forge, which meant that Pigs was doing well by 400BC, but the Pyramids ended up completing a couple turns later with lower population, because I had to whip another settler (2Clams). I haven't tried 4popping the forge before the Pigs settler, but I assume that would get the Pyramids much sooner, because the whip OF works better and sooner.

I am sooooooooooooo burnt out on all this testing. Anyone want to play this turnset for me?

 

[Mitchum]

I am sooooooooooooo burnt out on all this testing. Anyone want to play this turnset for me?

You've done such a good job so far. With Dhoomstriker's help , it looks like you are honing in on an optimized turnset. Are you at the point where you feel you can play through the completion of the Oracle (T103), especially since you're now talking about things that happen after then?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Not really. The Paris monument throws everything for a loop. In my test, research seems to be signifcantly farther behind, but I'm not really sure and it requires more testing to know for sure...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I tested teh changes Dhoom suggested and tried no mounument on both Paris and Gold.

I have also been toying with the following idea:
Rather than working the Fish + Clam in Gold City after whipping, we work the Fish + the Gold.

The thing is that we want our stored-up Hammers to go into a Library, so that's why we can't complete the Lighthouse, as we need to whip the Lighthouse's Hammers into a Library.

However, it sucks to work the Clam pre-Lighthouse.

Also, the longer that it takes to get Writing, the longer it will be before we can whip the Lighthouse (we can whip the Lighthouse as early as 1 turn prior to the Library).

So, working the Fish + Gold could save us a turn on Writing, allowing us to get that Lighthouse a tiny bit earlier. That's one idea.


BUT, what if we changed the rules of the game? What if we COULD get that early Lighthouse? That's the second idea: whip the Lighthouse before we're close to Writing, anyway.

The trick is to get the Hammers to go into the Library, right? Well, let's say that we're smart about the timing of when we whip, such that we don't whip when the Lighthouse is almost completed (otherwise we might start losing overflow Hammers) but when it is partially-completed.

Then, we "catch" the overflow Hammers into a Monument. When Writing is about to come in, that's when we can whip the Monument. Essentially, we can benefit from a Lighthouse's earlier Food while still banking its stored-up Hammers.

Now, it may not help us if we'd planned to skip building a Monument, but there are Happiness issues, so it's probably not a bad idea to get the Monument.

This way, we can probably work the Fish + Clam after whipping the Granary and growing to Size 2, then whip the Lighthouse when we're about to grow to Size 3. Then, we'll "catch" the overflow Hammers into a Monument that we won't complete. When the Monument is close to being completed (but not so close that we'd lose overflow Hammers when whipping it and investing 1 turn's worth of production into it--which is probably only 1 Hammer worth of production but might be as much as 4 Hammers' worth with the Gold), we'll switch over to building a Warrior while we wait for Writing to be within 1 turn of completion.


So, two ideas there, but I'm liking the second one because it's painful to watch us working 2 Coastal squares (the Fish + the Clam) while:
a) Temporarily ignoring the Gold
AND
b) Delaying the Lighthouse for a while

In Paris I whipped the Pigs worker before the forge, which meant that Pigs was doing well by 400BC, but the Pyramids ended up completing a couple turns later with lower population, because I had to whip another settler (2Clams).

Hmmm, I thought that Worker 2 was for the Stone City and that you were bringing Worker 1 over (after Chopping Forests into The Oracle) in order to improve Pig City. Are you now talking about a 3rd Worker? I'm not sure that we need a 3rd Worker so early, if you are... but, maybe you're just talking about Worker 2.

I haven't tried 4popping the forge before the Pigs settler, but I assume that would get the Pyramids much sooner, because the whip OF works better and sooner.

One of the things that I liked about your test run was getting the early Forge, so I'd like to try and get it early on, regardless of how many population points (probably 4 or 3) get whipped into it.


Of course, so many factors all culminate together, and we're tight on Research timings, thus even some "quickly done testing" can throw off a lot of the timing--being late on Writing or on The Oracle messes up build orders, for example.

So, in addition to all of this production optimization, I'll still have to go back and figure out some good Science Slider values to use.

A good point here is that whenever we have a Commerce multiple of 10, which we do for several turns at 20 Commerce and again for several turns at 30 Commerce, then ANY Science Slider value will work without losing us a fractional Flask plus a fractional Gold. This fact does give us flexibility but I'm putting off this optimization until we're closer to figuring out whipping and citizen assignments, since either of those factors would alter the Science Slider values. We need a relatively stable test run before it makes sense to optimize the Science Slider.

One other good thing is that we'll be learning Mysticism at the start, which doesn't give us any bonus Flasks. So, if we decide that we'll want to run Science Sliders of 70% or 50% or something later, we'll focus more on "spending Gold" while Researching Mysticism. On the contrary, if it looks like 80% or 100% Science Slider values are better for later techs, then we can focus on a 0% Science Slider for a few turns while researching Mysticism. It's a delicate balance.

I am sooooooooooooo burnt out on all this testing. Anyone want to play this turnset for me?

Well, it's an important and a long turnset, so there's no rush. You're the most familiar with it, so I'd be fine waiting another few days before you play. If someone else steps in, it will probably take them at least that long to:
a) Figure out what we're trying to do here
AND
b) Ensure that they 100% understand everything in your PPP
AND
c) Adapt your PPP to one that works better for them

So, if you think that you might be willing to play after several days, then I'd say that you could still do it. Of course, if someone wants to volunteer, then they can equally spend that time getting prepared. I don't really care either way.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Dhoom, that was a typo on the "Pigs worker." Should be Pigs settler.

You Gold ideas sound interesting. Another idea I had was to maximize set3 and set4 overflow, both into wkr2, then into the monument. I think the lower beakers is not about a coin here and there but about working more citizens overall.

The Paris forge still comes quite early, becuase I'm whipping like Stalin. It's just that the PIgs settler OF goes into the forge instead of the Pyramids PLUS the OF is not 1.25Xed. That's what slows down the Pyramids.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay. The monument in Paris seems to slow the Pyramids down by about 2t, with negligible difference in food in the end.

Whipping set3 on T82 delays the Oracle 1t.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What's our current target date for our first Great Scientist again? I mean, in trying to run different Gold City build orders, what date am I trying to at least meet, if not beat? I tried searching our thread for the answer but I'm not sure which date is our currently best date.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Whipping set3 on T82 delays the Oracle 1t.

That would agree with what I was seeing: we'd be at least 1, if not 2 turns behind, due to missing 2 turns' worth of 3 Hammers relative to whipping Settler 3 on Turn 80.

It does not seem worth it to delay Settler 3 for additional Hammer overflow.

However, for Settler 4, it doesn't hurt to delay it, since we're building Worker 2 next, instead of growing.

When I ran the numbers, we could build Worker 2 completely from Settler 3's overflow + the Hammers obtained on the turn that we "capture" the overflow Hammers from Settler 3 PLUS Settler 4's overflow + the Hammers obtained on teh turn that we "capture" the overflow Hammers from Settler 4. That was with putting the Monument afterwards, which seems to be an okay thing to do, as we can simply delay growth to City Size 6 by starting on Settler 4 when we're at City Size 5, to avoid growing into 1 additional Gold worth of Maintenance while having an Unhappy person.

I'd thought that we might possibly need to delay Worker 2 by a turn or two in order to get us a Warrior for Gold City, but my current rough testing of Gold City seems to have found a way to completely avoid Unhappiness there... I just need to make sure that the date of getting the Great Scientist is still a decent one.

Okay. The monument in Paris seems to slow the Pyramids down by about 2t, with negligible difference in food in the end.

When are you building the Monument relative to other build items? If we can manually build it (optionally using whipping overflow or else just slow-building it) then we can come ahead +1 Happiness. If we would need to whip it, then we probably won't realise the gain in Happiness in time to help with a 4-pop-whip of the Forge.

I still haven't really played it out to see if it's absolutely necessary to avoid Unhappiness at City Size 7 (such that upon growing to City Size 8 we could just whip immediately anyway), but I think that it probably would help for City Size 7, so if we can sneak it in, it is probably good to do.

I'm guessing, though, that what you are saying is that having that 1 extra Happiness only translates into about an equal amount of Food... which is not necessarily a bad thing if it means having a permanent +1 Happiness factor, but if it does look like we can delay the Monument until after we build the Forge, then the Monument's Happiness comes a bit cheaper (it'll cost a few less Hammers... you can't quite divide build items by 25% in order to get the savings, since we only see that +25% to Hammers for increments of 4 base Hammers obtained at a time, but you can generalize a Forge as saving 15% or more Hammers on most build items in a City with some Mines).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

You Gold ideas sound interesting. Another idea I had was to maximize set3 and set4 overflow, both into wkr2, then into the monument. I think the lower beakers is not about a coin here and there but about working more citizens overall.

I tried out the second approach, where we whip the early Library, and I think that I like it.

I'm whipping like Stalin

We need 25 turns of hiring 2 Scientist Specialists. By whipping the Granary, the Ligththouse, the Monument, and finally the Library (by whipping them in that order--heh, yeah, that's also pretty Stalin-like), we can still get the Warrior completed in time to be able to quickly get to City Size 4. I.e. we grow to Size 4 on Turn 112, 1200 BC.

Further, I don't end up seeing any turns of Unhappiness (so Paris can safely ignore building a Warrior for Gold City).

Now, what's neat is that we will have 39 Whipping Unhappiness, meaning that at City Size 4 while having just enough Happiness to have 4 citizens, we can hire 2 Scientists and "forget about Gold City" until the Great Scientist pops. We will thus work the Fish, the Gold, and 2 Scientists while stagnating growth.

Yes, it might be ideal Food-wise to temporarily fire a Scientist and work the Clam once we get down to 30 Whipping Unhappiness... but, the beauty of having 39 Whipping Unhappiness and 25 turns to grow the Great Scientist is that we do not HAVE to follow this "ideal Food and grow to City Size 5" case but can just stay stagnant at City Size 4, since we will STILL HAVE Whipping Unhappiness when the Great Scientist arrives (39 turns is greater than 25 turns). So, yes, we could be also working a Clam for a bit of time in there, which would mean +2 Commerce per turn and -3 Flasks and -3 GPP per turn while growing from Size 4 to Size 5 for 4 turns, then at Size 5 we'd rehire the Scientist and we'd still be up +3 Food and +2 Commerce from the Clam... in this way, the Great Scientist comes out 2 turns later (4 turns of hiring 1 Scientist = the same GPP as 2 turns' worth of hiring 2 Scientists), which isn't too bad of a situation, either.

We can certainly grow to Size 5 in this manner if we found Confucianism but we can also just aim to get the Great Scientist 2 turns faster if we miss out on Confucianism.

The advantage is that if we lose Confucianism, we have the option of continuing to push hard for this Great Scientist, getting it on Turn 137, 575 BC, while having worked the Gold square the whole time while growing the Great Scientist (meaning that we've just spent 25 turns working the Gold square).


I don't know if that date is good or not... the PPP gets us a Great Scientist on Turn 139, 525 BC, which could just mean that I got identical results (since I'd have the same date if we grew to Size 5 when Whipping Unhappiness subsides), but I forget whether the date in the PPP was our best date or if LC had improved upon that date.

Also, I'm not sure if we come out ahead, behind, or equal in terms of Commerce gained. I guess that the easiest approach is going to be to run through both approaches, track which squres are worked by citizens on which turns, then count up the total Food, Hammers, and Commerce. Complicating things slightly is that Commerce before Writing is learned may be more valuable. Anyway, I'll look into it, since it at least seems to be roughly as good as the PPP--close enough for a head-to-head comparison to be worthwhile.

 

[LowtherCastle]

As I originally suspected, if we build the monument in Paris but build the Pigs wb elsewhere (Stone or Marble), we get the Pyramids much sooner: T139/525BC(log: 550BC). The monument not only gives more food with less unhappiness, but Paris also regrows faster. That adds up a bit.

I'm getting the Gold GS around 550BC.

 

[LowtherCastle]

My GOld CIty stats on T139, 525BC are :

pop8
29/54f +8fpt
78/180h forge
0 whip

granary, lh, warrior, monument, +library

Edit: This is per my latest test.

 

[Mitchum]

Do we care exactly when the first GS is born? From LC's save, it looked like we had him several turns before needing him, so it appears that we have a bit of slack if we need to optimize Gold City's growth, hammers, food, coins, etc. over GPP production.

Or is the thinking that we may be able to trade for Alphabet sooner in the real game, thus opening up the Philosophy bulb that much sooner?

granary, lh, warrior, monument

+ Library

 

[Dhoomstriker]

My GOld CIty stats on T139, 525BC are :

pop8
29/54f +8fpt
78/180h forge
0 whip

granary, lh, warrior, monument

That's according to the current PPP or by some other approach? Also, I imagine that you also have a Library in there, right?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Or is the thinking that we may be able to trade for Alphabet sooner in the real game, thus opening up the Philosophy bulb that much sooner?

That was the thinking... I was trying to cater to the idea that if we miss Confucianism, we'll want to beeline Philosophy as soon as possible, since we're be "behind the eight ball" in terms of risking not getting a State Religion. No State Religion = no bonus GPP from running Pacisifm.

If an AI gets Confucianism through manual research, then there is a good chance that other AIs will have Alphabet and/or Math. Now, we can generally rely on the fact that (unless Mansa is in the game) that the AI who researches Code of Laws will not trade it away for those other techs. However, we wouldn't have finished Code of Laws while they would have, do all they'd need to do is research one of Monarchy, Alphabet, Math, Aesthetics or whatever and then pick up Alphabet + Math via either having researched one and traded for the other or gotten both in trade for a differen tech.

Then, of course, the AI would need a Great Scientist, which is where we might win if we beeline getting one, even if we come to the pre-requisite techs later than the AI does.

It doesn't sound like I saved much, though... 1 turn? Hmmm... I'll have to look a lot closer at what he's doing in the PPP... it's really hard (in the PPP's current format) to tell how large a City is at various points in time, so I did not realise that we'd be growing to 8 population in Gold City... that sounds much better than stagnating at City Size 4.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That's my latest save.

Btw, I got CoL 900BC this time around, without paying attention to it. That's pretty good I think. Note that I've founded CONfucianism all over the map. Odds are GOld City, but it's anything but guaranteed, which corresponds to the formula.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The Ducklets finally played 9 more turns. They built a monument on T100 and as of T109 no other culture. They're clearly REXing because their score is quite a bit higher than our test games, but that score also would then come partly from having research hunting+AH instead of writing. I would also assume they're going for a Machinery slingshot, although Philo is possible, but I'm not sure how they're going to get them very fast without a library or two.

If they succeed, then that means the AIs are somewhat backwards, hopefully slowing down barb galleys, which we need (got them around 750BC in my latest test), and giving us a good chance at CoL. If they fail, well, then they're screwed, but they haven't screwed up yet, so I doubt that too, though they were lucky little duckies last time.

If they're going for the Big Slingshot, then their civ won't be significantly more developed, I don't think, because they'll have to watch their costs. I also doubt they can get the Pyramids very fast in that case either.

I think we should be in good shape, but they always manage to surprise me, so do't pay any attention to me...

Btw, I'm more and more convinced that Astro+Pyramids is the way to go. The Colossus is a Trojan Horse here. Look how far we've already explored without having met any AI culture....

 

[Dhoomstriker]

That's my latest save.

Okay, well it is sounding pretty good but of course, I'm not sure what you're doing anymore now that the PPP isn't quite in use.

Do you have any suggestions of further things that you'd like me to look at trying to improve?