SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[Dhoomstriker]

Here is another 2 pop save for t 69. Settled in place.

Uhhhh, the screenshot shows you having settled on the PHFor square. I'm not sure which one to believe.

which is the lastest test save? post 76's save?

What is this "76's" thing of which you speak?


I'm sorry but I have been dreadfully sick these last couple of days. I have some ideas of opening trials that I would like to run but may not get to them for a couple of more days, once I've recovered somewhat.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

both mistakes, editing them out... I meant post number 76

edit: hope u get better soon!

 

[mdy]

When exactly did you have the settler and the galley completed? Is it just at 2025 BC? What about the exploring work boats, did they recently get completed or did you just complete them and put them to sleep?

The reason I ask is that in bbp's save, his exploring workboats were out much sooner (or appeared to have been finished sooner) due to how far they are from the capital. It would be nice to have scouted the nearby islands to know where to send the settler. Also, his settler/galley were ready several turns earlier.

As this was just a test I did not do any serious exploring with the workboats, so there relative positions are a bit deceptive. They were built on T 53 and T 58 respectively. The settler/galley pair was finished on T 70, though we could bring this forwards substantially with an additional whip (T62), or by delaying the exploring workboats(Not yet tested). I let the settler sleep rather than found a city in a "guessed" location, so in reality we would be a bit further ahead in tech than my save suggest.

 

[Mitchum]

As this was just a test I did not do any serious exploring with the workboats, so there relative positions are a bit deceptive. They were built on T 53 and T 58 respectively. The settler/galley pair was finished on T 70, though we could bring this forwards substantially with an additional whip (T62), or by delaying the exploring workboats(Not yet tested). I let the settler sleep rather than found a city in a "guessed" location, so in reality we would be a bit further ahead in tech than my save suggest.

OK, thanks for the info. I think it would be better to settle that second city on a nearby island (maybe the one Ras settled on so it can share a clam with the capital). Otherwise, SIP/3E has an unfair advantage due to the extra hammers/commerce from having already settled the second city.

EDIT: This really is a complex start. I'm a bit confused over which way to go... Are people other than Dhoom, Ras or me still planning to run more tests?

 

[shyuhe]

I'm a bit tied up with RL stuff and don't really have the time to test right now. Do we really plan on testing every single possible permutation for the opening before starting though?

 

[Mitchum]

I'm a bit tied up with RL stuff and don't really have the time to test right now. Do we really plan on testing every single possible permutation for the opening before starting though?

No, that would obviously take too long. However, based on the testing you've seen so far, do you think we have enough information to make an informed decision? If so, what would you choose and why? If not, what other permutations would you like to see tested?

 

[Mitchum]

I just ran another test. I think it was similar to LC's.

SIP, Rax (partial) -> WB (net) -> WB (net) -> worker -> wb (net) -> settler -> granary -> galley -> Settler 2. Orleans went WB (explore) -> LH. I chopped/mined the PHFor, farmed the corn, mined the GLHill and roaded everything. The worker could be shipped to the island to the west this turn if we wanted or he could accompany the settler.

First exploring WB -> T75 (quite late)
Second exploring WB -> N/A, but galley is available for at least 4 turns (2 turns out/2 turns back).
Fishing (T10) -> Mining (T21) -> BW (T40) -> Pottery (T51) -> Sailing (T65) -> Mysticism (T72) -> Polytheism (T85)
Capital (T82): 4 pop, +7F, 5H, 14C, Granary, Settler 67/149 (can be whipped this turn), +2 from whip
Orleans (T82): 2 pop, +3F, 4H, 4C, LH 42/90, +1 from whip
Settler #3 can board galley on T83
Total naval exploration turns is 8 + 2 = 10 on T83.

The biggest drawback is that there will have been very little time to explore the surrounding islands, so we may not find the best settling location for city #3 unless we get lucky and head the correct direction with our 10 measly turns of exploration.

The advantages of this test are a granary in the capital, which means that it re-grows very quickly, decent tech rate, well developed island (unlike my first test, which built a settler before the worker).

 

[shyuhe]

I'll try to make a table to put the information into a more comparative format. I'm getting the impression that the interest in T0 testing is starting to dwindle so I thought it's worth moving the ball forward a bit here.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another factor, Mitchum, to include in your list is the whip unhappiness at the endpoint.

 

[Mitchum]

Another factor, Mitchum, to include in your list is the whip unhappiness at the endpoint.

I was thinking about that too when I saw two in my last save.

 

[Mitchum]

I just played a PH start. Settle PH, Worker -> WB x4 -> Settler (whipped for 3) -> Galley. I chopped the only forest into the settler prior to the whip. Settled Orleans on the island to the west, hill on island already mined.


First exploring WB -> T45 (WB #2)
Second exploring WB -> T58 (WB #4)
Fishing (T11) -> Mining (T22) -> BW (T44) -> Sailing (T59) -> Pottery (T70) -> Mysticism (T77) - This is about 5 turns slower than my last SIP test.
Capital (T82): 3 pop (29/39 food), +9F, 2H, 15C, Granary 22/90 , +1 from whip.
Orleans (T82): 1 pop (28/33 food), +4F, 1H, 5C, Granary 10/90 , no whip
Settler #3 and worker are on Galley on T82 (1 turn sooner than SIP).
Total naval exploration turns is 38 + 25 = 63 on T83 (53 more than SIP!!)

This option ran into unhealthiness at pop 5 and didn't seem to have many good options to use the whip (total 3 pops whipped vs. 7 for my SIP test). SIP never lost any food to unhealthiness. No infrastructure built anywhere (SIP already had a granary in the capital which made for very efficient food to hammer conversion). Slower science than SIP. WAY more exploration.

Both options have a third settler on a galley at almost the exact same time T62 vs. T63, so from a REX perspective, both of my tests were about on par.

So, as we've been discussing, the main thing we have to decide is which is more important in this game: Early exploration vs. faster science and a slightly more developed capital. Also, even though many of us are discounting the health issue (PH had +4 vs. +6 for SIP (+1 from forest and +1 from granary)), SIP has an extra +2 to play with (although current whip has us staying at 4, soon to be 5, pops) which means more efficient conversion of food to hammers if we whip 6 -> 3 or 5 -> 3.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

By working the clams when building worker (after first wb), you can get BW t39, gaing 5 turns on the rest of your techs. Exploration time is valid bonus for this variant imo. (huge)

 

[Mitchum]

By working the clams when building worker (after first wb), you can get BW t39, gaing 5 turns on the rest of your techs. Exploration time is valid bonus for this variant imo. (huge)

Was this your PH variant? Did you build barracks (partial while growing) -> WB -> worker? Can you provide the details that I did for my two test runs for comparison reasons all the way until you have settler #3 on a galley ready to go?

 

[Mitchum]

By working the clams when building worker (after first wb), you can get BW t39, gaing 5 turns on the rest of your techs. Exploration time is valid bonus for this variant imo. (huge)

I think if we can answer the question of exploration vs. science/more developed capital/health, then we can work to optimize the chosen path (i.e. SIP or PH). Right now there are just too many variants to consider...

Also, if we do move to the PH on T0, we have the option of exploring one more turn with the warrior and possibly settling even further north if the situation dictates such.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

worker (partial build) -> wb (on 2f2c tile) -> worker (4f2c+2f2c) -> whip at BW.

Yes it's basically what I did yesterday. I haven't the commerce and prod values on the same turns, but I noted all completion dates (so can deduce exploration time), techs, and whips (so can compute unhappiness). Played till t79 but the date of the third settler can be deduced as well. Tell me if I there is anything that I can add.

Imo both our saves are behind mdy's one. Had he settled his city 2 he would be ahead in science and prod iirc. When do u settle your city 2 btw?

edit: yes, this looses some hammers in the worker while building first wb. I think it's good for the sake of early galley (need beakers)
edit2: did you see my editing of the post #120 (it's the last of the page with my display settings)? I ran the test to t79 there.

 

[Mitchum]

worker (partial build, on 2f2c tile) -> wb (on 2f2c tile) -> worker (4f2c+2f2c) -> whip at BW.

I assume you worked the corn, not the clam for the first 10 turns since we didn't know Fishing yet. It sounds like from Fishing on, you worked clams (improved and non-improved) rather than the +3F corn to increase beakers.

Imo both our saves are behind mdy's one. Had he settled his city 2 he would be ahead in science and prod iirc. When do u settle your city 2 btw?

I settled City 2 on T72 IIRC. For some reason it's not in my notes but would be very easy to re-create or determined from the in-game log if needed.

Regarding exploration, SIP could use one of the earlier WBs to explore rather than fishing nets. Settler #3 would surely be delayed by some turns at the expense of more exploration. I'm not sure if this is a viable alternative, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

@shyuhe

Do you have enough information to compare my latest two tests (posts 127 and 131), Ras' test, LC's test and mdy's test? Are there any other test runs that we should add? Is anyone else still running tests?

Or, does everyone think we have enough information to make a decision?

 

[Mitchum]

@ Ras

I just took a closer look at your save. It looks like you could have settler #3 on a galley on T88, which is a bit later than my other two tests. The biggest issue is that the capital is only 3 pops so it will take a lot of hammers before you can whip it for 1.

 

[Mitchum]

No word from Shyuhe, so I'm working on a comparison right now. Stand by.

 

[Rusten]

@post 131

Is it not better to settle Orleans on the hill?
-save a wb for exploring.
-have a forest that can be chopped to enable 1-pop granary whip.

Capital won't be able to utilise all its food early game anyway so sharing is fine. It also sets the city up for a worker/settler pump with 2 seafood.

 

[Rusten]

I value exploration very highly. It makes it much easier to make the right decisions in the coming turns. Furthermore the sooner we find an AI the better (3 commerce trade routes).

I like the look of mdy's PH save.