Ah, I did not have in mind that you were member of that famous crew... I just read team Wacken those days
SGOTM 13 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ah, I did not have in mind that you were member of that famous crew... I just read team Wacken those days
Andronicus
Emperor
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Srry for lack of input - I felt uncertain of how this gifting and retake works so need to check the thread in KCs link (had a brief look). Will be bust the next 2 days - hope to get to this Sun, if ppl happy to wait till then I'll play Sun, otherwise Paul can go first if you want to speed things up
killercane
Deity
Sorry guys, I havent been able to find the time to play. If the above mentioned stuff sounds good, I will try to get to it before Andro. This game feels like a job but I very much would like to see it to completion.
And I played (and submitted) to 90 AD.
I did not gift and retake yet because an american pike showed up in Baltimore. It will be on top of the spear that had originally guarded the town.
I'd want at least 4 cats to shell those units (3 hits) before we attack with our warriors...
Here's the turn log:
I did not gift and retake yet because an american pike showed up in Baltimore. It will be on top of the spear that had originally guarded the town.
I'd want at least 4 cats to shell those units (3 hits) before we attack with our warriors...
Here's the turn log:
Spoiler :
Looking at CA2 I now think Kagoshima should sacrifice its useless citizen.
Either to finish the harbor - or even better to finish the cat and rush another a turn later...
It won't be happy at size 2 unless we put a MP there...
To drive this one I'll continue to play this evening if nobody else speaks up.
I plan to delay the attack for 5-10 turns to get some more cats going.
Then I'll probably crack one town after the other, not both at once.
Either to finish the harbor - or even better to finish the cat and rush another a turn later...
It won't be happy at size 2 unless we put a MP there...
To drive this one I'll continue to play this evening if nobody else speaks up.
I plan to delay the attack for 5-10 turns to get some more cats going.
Then I'll probably crack one town after the other, not both at once.
killercane
Deity
Mighty mighty warriors! Sounds fantastic. Where the heck is New Orleans? Very nice play.
Looking at the save, the Celts have 2019 gold! Verulamium is odd too, size 12 with only mined plains, must have some food bonuses as well. Any bright ideas on obtaining all that gold before they spend it?
Can we trade gpt to someone for Bronze and try to get IW from Abe along with New Orleans? I cant see how we dont make peace with America now.
Looking at the save, the Celts have 2019 gold! Verulamium is odd too, size 12 with only mined plains, must have some food bonuses as well. Any bright ideas on obtaining all that gold before they spend it?
Can we trade gpt to someone for Bronze and try to get IW from Abe along with New Orleans? I cant see how we dont make peace with America now.
Andronicus
Emperor
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Great work Paul 
I was confused - I thought we were waiting for KC to complete his turnset, anyway this needed to get moving
Looking at the save I have several thoughts
CA2 reveals tech costs as
BW = 148
Myst = 200
IW = 342
curr = 811
rep 1451 (less 73 already gathered)
setting all citizens (exc resistor
) to taxmen we make 41gpt
We have options in peace treaty to go for
a) New Orleans (where ever it is?) + HBR +7g
(wont give BW + myst = 348, so unlikely to give IW = 342, if we first trade for BW, but maybe worth trying?)
b) Rep for 41gpt + 10g (and soon find ourselves bankrupt, but Iroquois dont know rep so could get techs out of them)
Do we shift capital to New Orleans? I know we cant answer that until we see what the site is like, but in principle I gather this is the plan.
Do we repeat the gift and retake trick for multiple civs? This would leave our original lands a mess in terms of no infrastructure, but then we only have a couple of raxes, a couple of harbours and a temple. We would be at risk to New Orleans from land based attacks, but until astronomy (which might not be far away) our islands would be safe. Does any one know how many turns we need to wait before AI likely to make peace? (edit I note it took America 4 turns in Pauls notes - might it be possible for less turns if we recapture more towns?) In theory we could gift and retake to a different civ each turn, but I could imagine we might find that stretching New Orleans defences.
RE trades - Iroquois offers best gpt trade - 1-2gpt cheaper for techs than others
eg -
BW 10gpt+13, Spain, Portugal 11gpt+4, Rome, Celts 11gpt+13;
HBR 15gpt+12, Spain, Portugal 16gpt+7, Rome, Celts 17gpt+2;
Currency 41gpt+69, Spain , Portugal 41gpt+106, Celts, Rome 41gpt+142.
As mentioned above Iroquois dont know rep, so we are not far from a 2 for 1 oportunity, just that rep is too expensive at present. We need to know more civs. Is it worth sending a galley on suicide mission across to Portugal to attempt anti-clockwise circuit? Going from Izumo would require survival 2 turns at sea
We could maximise the gift and retake strategy by building more settlers - 2 to replace the razed American towns, but also could cram in up to 5 other temp towns on the larger island. This would give 14 towns to gift retake (all bar Kagoshimo and capital in New Orleans) in extreme example.
Any thoughts?
btw, this is my "got it", but I'll wait a while to play as we discuss the above.
I was confused - I thought we were waiting for KC to complete his turnset, anyway this needed to get moving
Looking at the save I have several thoughts
CA2 reveals tech costs as
BW = 148
Myst = 200
IW = 342
curr = 811
rep 1451 (less 73 already gathered)
setting all citizens (exc resistor
) to taxmen we make 41gptWe have options in peace treaty to go for
a) New Orleans (where ever it is?) + HBR +7g
(wont give BW + myst = 348, so unlikely to give IW = 342, if we first trade for BW, but maybe worth trying?)
b) Rep for 41gpt + 10g (and soon find ourselves bankrupt, but Iroquois dont know rep so could get techs out of them)
Do we shift capital to New Orleans? I know we cant answer that until we see what the site is like, but in principle I gather this is the plan.
Do we repeat the gift and retake trick for multiple civs? This would leave our original lands a mess in terms of no infrastructure, but then we only have a couple of raxes, a couple of harbours and a temple. We would be at risk to New Orleans from land based attacks, but until astronomy (which might not be far away) our islands would be safe. Does any one know how many turns we need to wait before AI likely to make peace? (edit I note it took America 4 turns in Pauls notes - might it be possible for less turns if we recapture more towns?) In theory we could gift and retake to a different civ each turn, but I could imagine we might find that stretching New Orleans defences.
RE trades - Iroquois offers best gpt trade - 1-2gpt cheaper for techs than others
eg -
BW 10gpt+13, Spain, Portugal 11gpt+4, Rome, Celts 11gpt+13;
HBR 15gpt+12, Spain, Portugal 16gpt+7, Rome, Celts 17gpt+2;
Currency 41gpt+69, Spain , Portugal 41gpt+106, Celts, Rome 41gpt+142.
As mentioned above Iroquois dont know rep, so we are not far from a 2 for 1 oportunity, just that rep is too expensive at present. We need to know more civs. Is it worth sending a galley on suicide mission across to Portugal to attempt anti-clockwise circuit? Going from Izumo would require survival 2 turns at sea
We could maximise the gift and retake strategy by building more settlers - 2 to replace the razed American towns, but also could cram in up to 5 other temp towns on the larger island. This would give 14 towns to gift retake (all bar Kagoshimo and capital in New Orleans) in extreme example.
Any thoughts?
btw, this is my "got it", but I'll wait a while to play as we discuss the above.
Andronicus
Emperor
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Is it size 12 or 2?
It does have 2 fish with harbour so that's a fair food surplus there.
killercane
Deity
Dont know, thought it was 12. If we take Republic we will be broke in anarchy but come out ahead of break even, But it sounds like we wont get New Orleans in such a deal.
Republic now rather than 30 turns is what, 600 gold? 900 gold?
Minimum time to wait after declaration of war is 4 turns yes.
Republic now rather than 30 turns is what, 600 gold? 900 gold?
Minimum time to wait after declaration of war is 4 turns yes.
Whereever this New Orleans is - it will have an incredible high flip risk.
Our culture is - zero
Even our towns in our old world are still at high flip risk
I doubt we will be able to send the forces there to jump the capital. Too bad our 3 elite battles did not create a MGL...
Good exploration re trades. I'll comment on this later.
Republic we won't get in the peace deal IIRC, America won't accept anythin on top of peace. So that's still an option, trade for Republic, New Orleans and a lot of other tech from Iroquois...
Our culture is - zero
Even our towns in our old world are still at high flip risk
I doubt we will be able to send the forces there to jump the capital. Too bad our 3 elite battles did not create a MGL...
Good exploration re trades. I'll comment on this later.
Republic we won't get in the peace deal IIRC, America won't accept anythin on top of peace. So that's still an option, trade for Republic, New Orleans and a lot of other tech from Iroquois...
Andronicus
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Whereever this New Orleans is - it will have an incredible high flip risk.
Our culture is - zero
Even our towns in our old world are still at high flip risk
I doubt we will be able to send the forces there to jump the capital. Too bad our 3 elite battles did not create a MGL...
Good exploration re trades. I'll comment on this later.
Republic we won't get in the peace deal IIRC, America won't accept anythin on top of peace. So that's still an option, trade for Republic, New Orleans and a lot of other tech from Iroquois...
Jumping capital to New Orleans is simple ..... we just gift all other towns to our next victim, capital by default jumps to New Orleans, we then walk back into our former towns with warriors ... oh dang, I forgot about our 1 tile island - obviously we would need New Orleans at greater pop ... back to the drawing board
re getting rep - we can get rep from America in peace treaty but not with New Orleans (whenever get town from AI in peace deal there must be nothing other than peace treaty on player's side of the ledger). It would take all our (artificially created) gpt - 41gpt, plus 10g. . Going bankrupt during anarchy owing large gpt is an exploit IIRC, but I think should be avoidable.
edit
I can play in about 12 hours time, but not sure we will be decided on our course by then; otherwise I'll be away until Tues, so would need a skip / swap (unless it takes till then for us to decide on what we do next)
2nd edit - flip risk would depend on amount of overlap - if gifted to us in peace treaty citizens become Japanese, flip risk then dependent upon number of tiles in big fat cross which are occupied by foreign culture. We would be exceedingly lucky if this were not a sig risk.
Not really a problem, we could disband it for a settler and settle right back after the jump.Jumping capital to New Orleans is simple ..... we just gift all other towns to our next victim, capital by default jumps to New Orleans, we then walk back into our former towns with warriors ... oh dang, I forgot about our 1 tile island - obviously we would need New Orleans at greater pop ... back to the drawing board
Maybe there's even no need to disband it:
Palace jump is independent off the distance to the former palace, it only depends on the number and size of towns in the 9x9-square around the possible site. If both New Orleans and Kagoshima have no other town around
the decision will be solely based on size and garisson. So a reg warrior or a second pop in New Orleans would already make the palace jump there. 
I'd love to submit a save before the retake then. That would be quite an eye-catcher on those territory stats graphs...
Another problem would be that we won't have an FP ready to make our old world at least remotely productive.
But that's also no reason not to spend some time dreaming and planning...
Could we get Rep from anybody else?
We need to get another galley over to meet the others.
Lowers the price and maybe opens more opportunities to trade republic further...
Being away till Tuesday is not a reason to be skipped in this game
Well, most of the time the cheapest town is away from the core... But we should not rely on this.
Maybe it's a one-tile-island
Andronicus
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I'd love to submit a save before the retake then. That would be quite an eye-catcher on those territory stats graphs...
Other than fp city, not a lot of affect on nearby cities when a long way from palaceAnother problem would be that we won't have an FP ready to make our old world at least remotely productive.
No, not for all our gold + gpt
Agree strongly - I'm prepared to risk losing a galley or 2
Ok then, I still got it, but we have time to work out a plan. Although seriously I feel embarrassed at how slow we are going, hopefully we get rolling soonBeing away till Tuesday is not a reason to be skipped in this game
At least the three of us can make decisions easy. Actually it's enough if we both agree because we would just overrule KC
Republic would mean we'd have to disband our military for markets.
We'd have some decent growth, some towns would make +5fpt finally...
Whatever we decide, our two galleys should head for new shores (counterclockwise surround the other world). Our productive towns should build galleys.
What's the way to catch up?
Not sure what happens to gpt-payments in anarchy. Ah, we're religious Japan
For one turn we should be able to pay our debts, right?
That breaks the tie for me, we should go for Republic from America, get the most out of the Iroquois and make money to buy the other techs and disband our brave units for ships and markets
I'm not too keen on playing with a distant capital in a probably unattractive site anyway (without any resources, no doubt).
So say good bye to New Orleans (whereever it is).
If a town flips after we sealed a 20-turn-deal, our goose is cooked...
Maybe we should hurry to quel resistance and add some native workers to reduce flip risk.
Republic would mean we'd have to disband our military for markets.
We'd have some decent growth, some towns would make +5fpt finally...
Whatever we decide, our two galleys should head for new shores (counterclockwise surround the other world). Our productive towns should build galleys.
What's the way to catch up?
- 1. Buy techs for gpt and trade to tech par.
Problem: High gpt-payments hinder self research after catching up. - 2. gift and retake with other nations to get techs.
Problem: They might go mad and dog-pile on us unless we make sure to chose the weakest. Our towns should be size 2 and we'll have to deal with resistors.
Smart tactics nevertheless.
Not sure what happens to gpt-payments in anarchy.
Ah, we're religious Japan For one turn we should be able to pay our debts, right?
That breaks the tie for me, we should go for Republic from America, get the most out of the Iroquois and make money to buy the other techs and disband our brave units for ships and markets
I'm not too keen on playing with a distant capital in a probably unattractive site anyway (without any resources, no doubt).
So say good bye to New Orleans (whereever it is).
If a town flips after we sealed a 20-turn-deal, our goose is cooked...
Maybe we should hurry to quel resistance and add some native workers to reduce flip risk.
killercane
Deity
Well Republic is only going to be useful if we can trade for construction to grow above size 6 and generate some serious gold in the old world. I am inclined to vote for the taking of new orleans 
. Then gift and retake against someone far away from America, like Portugal, at which point we try to get Republic from them.
We probably should not have killed the spear they dropped off. We could then give America gpt and demand they move it at an opportune time, say in a few turns when our cities are ready for gift and retake again.
. Then gift and retake against someone far away from America, like Portugal, at which point we try to get Republic from them.We probably should not have killed the spear they dropped off. We could then give America gpt and demand they move it at an opportune time, say in a few turns when our cities are ready for gift and retake again.
Are you sure?
If our units support does not kill us, we get double the commerce and quicker growth. We won't reach size 6 in despotism, we don't have enough space to get more than a couple of towns to sizes > 6 anyway.
I'm not sure how much that New Orleans would be worth for us. We'd only be able to keep it if we jumped our palace there. I think that would kill us.I am inclined to vote for the taking of new orleans
Now that's banned for this game
And the spear landed at a time where we had no spare units to block it, did not know when we would defeat Baltimore and I did not want him to pillage our nice mined land...
Maybe we should sign rop to let it expire? However I'd feel safer without foreigners on our soil...
killercane
Deity
But we have several warriors and catapults and workers AND we cant grow above size 7. I cant get CA2 to work on this comp but I am sure we dont lose much taking Republic in 30 turns as opposed to now. We certainly cant research and if we pay all our gpt to America we wont have any to buy IW and trade Construction with Iroquois, which who knows if they would even do such a deal. Losing 830 gold to America isnt something we can do when we get Republic essentially free in what is for this game, a short time frame.Are you sure?
If our units support does not kill us, we get double the commerce and quicker growth. We won't reach size 6 in despotism, we don't have enough space to get more than a couple of towns to sizes > 6 anyway.
I'm not sure how much that New Orleans would be worth for us. We'd only be able to keep it if we jumped our palace there. I think that would kill us.
Now that's banned for this game
And the spear landed at a time where we had no spare units to block it, did not know when we would defeat Baltimore and I did not want him to pillage our nice mined land...
Maybe we should sign rop to let it expire? However I'd feel safer without foreigners on our soil...
If someone can look at Republic right now in CA2 and compare it for 30 turns vs. accruing more gold to rush units on American soil that would be great.
killercane
Deity
You mean the Emsworth Agreement thing? Thats completely different. Asking AIs to move has always been ok. We are paying them as part of our peace deal, and they are ruining their rep (well, if they had one).
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