I can't peek for, conservatively, another 90 minutes, but I think that's a reasonable idea. I'd very much like to stash as many AI as possible on an island where we don't need to worrk about them walking over. (The risk is them eliminating each other of course.)
SGOTM 14 - Ivan
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
If you like, I can take a look tomorrow at lunch time. (Now it's too late, need to get up tomorrow...)
Good night, Lanzelot
I. Larkin
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Thanks, I will manage somehow. But brain really overload. + Mongol galley come...
But in long term we have to invent some "Nanny control", if kids start to fight.
I. Larkin
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I do. At current situation (no stable ship chain, lot of "local fronts", infra under construction, Arabs in the middel and dont want to talk...) I can afford 2 turns per day.
Played 2 more turns, start war with Celts, that was a mistake. I think to evacuate and gift City to Maya(?) : have no better idea. Looks that better not to tuogch Celts at all...
May re-take Dhely that I gifted to them. Will it autorazed?
Finished France.
Lost 3 knights vs 1 (!) Impy in Zimbabwe. Flips are a real pain.
Landed at rome land near Neapolis. (Mounians on their North). Starnge, the did not try to Countra - attack.
AIs behave very strange, if there is no "easy route to City" Say, knights block access, they ignore it.
Probably also mistake... But may land more this turn.
Really want "general discussion".
I took a look at yesterday's save, but as you played another two turns, my suggestions may already be out-dated!? Anyway, I was going to suggest Satsuma to France, Delhi to the Russians (that's as far as possible from Yaroslavl) and Calcutta to the Celts. But that's now "yesterday's snow".
Yes, an attack on Celtia would require a very thorough preparation, now is much too premature! Better back out again. I would have waited until 40 units (The Japan stack plus 20 from the core) had been assembled on their island, and only start the attack then (I had seen, how many GS they had running around there). If you think that's too slow, then how about trying America instead? (But I feel in the long run we'll have to crack Celtia, because it's so close and has quite a few tiles.)
But what are the alternatives? Inca, Iroquois and Korea don't look too difficult, so these may be good targets as well. But we can't "scatter" our forces too much. I think it's better to concentrate two large armies (40 on Celtia, but that is going to be difficult now with our RoP lost...) and the rest on the big continent (via France - (Inca) - Iroquois - Mongolia and India - Maya - Mongolia). On that continent attack on at a time, starting with Mongolia, who should be beaten up by now. Then when one opponent is finished, move the entire stack over to the next one. But attacking too many opponents at once with small forces only leads to disaster. Losses will be high and gains small.
Lanzelot
Yes, an attack on Celtia would require a very thorough preparation, now is much too premature! Better back out again. I would have waited until 40 units (The Japan stack plus 20 from the core) had been assembled on their island, and only start the attack then (I had seen, how many GS they had running around there). If you think that's too slow, then how about trying America instead? (But I feel in the long run we'll have to crack Celtia, because it's so close and has quite a few tiles.)
But what are the alternatives? Inca, Iroquois and Korea don't look too difficult, so these may be good targets as well. But we can't "scatter" our forces too much. I think it's better to concentrate two large armies (40 on Celtia, but that is going to be difficult now with our RoP lost...) and the rest on the big continent (via France - (Inca) - Iroquois - Mongolia and India - Maya - Mongolia). On that continent attack on at a time, starting with Mongolia, who should be beaten up by now. Then when one opponent is finished, move the entire stack over to the next one. But attacking too many opponents at once with small forces only leads to disaster. Losses will be high and gains small.
Lanzelot
I. Larkin
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Here it is...
Attachments
I am taking a look at the save now; this may be a bit stream-of-consciousness.
I think Rome is a good target, Legions notwithstanding. Note the tiny town of Pisae in the ocean to the west of the Hittites (southeast quadrant of the map). That means we can comfortably raze all Roman cities and replace them ourselves.
I'd also like to see us take Persia, for two reasons: first, they already have a city off their island (Bactra), so we can clear it with impunity. Second, with all the coastal tiles around it, it will bring in some useful domination numbers for us. Unfortunately, Immortals will be a royal pain in the butt.
Really, though, I think we need to focus on the big prize, which is the island that has Germany, Greece, and the Mongols. That is a sizable island, with a number of useful jumping-off points to neighboring islands should we need them. We should be prepared to run roughshod over that island. The Iroquois should provide a useful gathering point for forces, if we want to go that way.
My general plan at this point would be:
1. Continue war vs. Rome, since we're there and may as well finish it.
2. A short war with Korea. Korea makes for an IDEAL jail site, and I have an idea as to how to pack a number of cities in there for civilizations that we are otherwise "done" with (see dotmap).
I believe that we can use cheap units (scouts) to fill in the spaces between the cities on this peninsula. This should totally prevent any AI vs. AI combat unless they are also at war with us. And, assuming we can browbeat them into a right of passage (or at least staying away from war with us), we may be able to fill those spaces more or less indefinitely.
The basic plan would be:
-Raze Nampo
-Settle red dots ASAP
-Gift red dot 1 to a civ (e.g. Ottomans, Germany, Mongols, Greece, maybe America?).
-Remove all other cities they have
-Make peace with them, finally and for all time
-Move on to the next civ
We would require a few defensive units (not many) and a few scouts to prevent any further expansion or movement.
I think Rome is a good target, Legions notwithstanding. Note the tiny town of Pisae in the ocean to the west of the Hittites (southeast quadrant of the map). That means we can comfortably raze all Roman cities and replace them ourselves.
I'd also like to see us take Persia, for two reasons: first, they already have a city off their island (Bactra), so we can clear it with impunity. Second, with all the coastal tiles around it, it will bring in some useful domination numbers for us. Unfortunately, Immortals will be a royal pain in the butt.
Really, though, I think we need to focus on the big prize, which is the island that has Germany, Greece, and the Mongols. That is a sizable island, with a number of useful jumping-off points to neighboring islands should we need them. We should be prepared to run roughshod over that island. The Iroquois should provide a useful gathering point for forces, if we want to go that way.
My general plan at this point would be:
1. Continue war vs. Rome, since we're there and may as well finish it.
2. A short war with Korea. Korea makes for an IDEAL jail site, and I have an idea as to how to pack a number of cities in there for civilizations that we are otherwise "done" with (see dotmap).
I believe that we can use cheap units (scouts) to fill in the spaces between the cities on this peninsula. This should totally prevent any AI vs. AI combat unless they are also at war with us. And, assuming we can browbeat them into a right of passage (or at least staying away from war with us), we may be able to fill those spaces more or less indefinitely.
The basic plan would be:
-Raze Nampo
-Settle red dots ASAP
-Gift red dot 1 to a civ (e.g. Ottomans, Germany, Mongols, Greece, maybe America?).
-Remove all other cities they have
-Make peace with them, finally and for all time
-Move on to the next civ
We would require a few defensive units (not many) and a few scouts to prevent any further expansion or movement.
Spoiler :
Attachments
eldar
ChiefTank
I like that plan.
What I don't like is trying to fight a war piecemeal. Look at how successful the AI are at bringing 1-2 units at a time to the fight. I don't know if we can afford it, but maybe we need just 4-5 turns to catch breath, consolidate forces, heal up, then head out again.
Bug out of the Celt island ASAP, for sure, until we can land 40 units at a go to absorb their counter. But - how quickly can we muster say 10-15 pikes (mixed with archers/trebs?) to just land there to absorb as many GS's as possible?
What I don't like is trying to fight a war piecemeal. Look at how successful the AI are at bringing 1-2 units at a time to the fight. I don't know if we can afford it, but maybe we need just 4-5 turns to catch breath, consolidate forces, heal up, then head out again.
Bug out of the Celt island ASAP, for sure, until we can land 40 units at a go to absorb their counter. But - how quickly can we muster say 10-15 pikes (mixed with archers/trebs?) to just land there to absorb as many GS's as possible?
Oh, and here's an interesting (if depressing) thought that really shows how much we're going to have to compress some civs is:
The domination limit is 1536 tiles (give or take).
2/3 of that limit is 1024 tiles, leaving 512 for the AI.
At 24 opposing civs, if each one had just 21 tiles (one city, a single fat cross), that's 504 tiles. It will be hard to compress much below that by our own means, because that last city will of course be their capital and result in a quick expansion. The only way to combat this is to get it squeezed in between other cities with more culture, either ours or those of other AI.
In other words, we either have to really really really shrink some civs in via some serious ICSing and gifting, or accept that killing a couple may be the way to go (and yes, I agree in advance that that is a last resort).
The domination limit is 1536 tiles (give or take).
2/3 of that limit is 1024 tiles, leaving 512 for the AI.
At 24 opposing civs, if each one had just 21 tiles (one city, a single fat cross), that's 504 tiles. It will be hard to compress much below that by our own means, because that last city will of course be their capital and result in a quick expansion. The only way to combat this is to get it squeezed in between other cities with more culture, either ours or those of other AI.
In other words, we either have to really really really shrink some civs in via some serious ICSing and gifting, or accept that killing a couple may be the way to go (and yes, I agree in advance that that is a last resort).
I. Larkin
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Thanks for input, D_Wetzel.
Thats appear that Rome too tough. So I decided to make Peace Just have Neapolis.
Persia starts Leonardo in Persipolis. May be "let them"? Maya "declare" IBT and killed next turn all I load there using RoP.
Just give up and decided to move to Korea. Well study yor plan now. Accually looks that Ais don't attack Knights on Mountains.
Thats appear that Rome too tough. So I decided to make Peace Just have Neapolis.
Persia starts Leonardo in Persipolis. May be "let them"? Maya "declare" IBT and killed next turn all I load there using RoP.
Just give up and decided to move to Korea. Well study yor plan now. Accually looks that Ais don't attack Knights on Mountains.
I. Larkin
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I made Peace with Celts and they gave 1 City. Another one is Maya's. With Walls in a Cities and fortified Picks + some Trbukhets I think we can manage.
I. Larkin
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0 250*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights arrive to India. Move something to Zimbabwe. Push Kioto’s Pickmans forward. Change Lisbon to Knight, Lagos to Harbor, Gui to settler; and lot of Micromamagenent. Arabia does not want to talk. Sell useless improuvments in Japan.
IBT Some) contra-attack from Japan.
1 260*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights will arrive to India. For effective Chain they may load at Mpondo, not from swamp.
Declare India, Capture Madras and Deheli. Capture Osaka.
Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Massive horse contra-attack from India; Lost 1 Knights and MI. Zimbabwe flipped. Mongol arrived. Egypt asked for Peace, I agreed, they pay “nothing!”, but I was not sure because Mongols have the same color.
2 270*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights arrive to Madras and strike and capture Calcutta. No losses, but no way to hold dhely as 12-15 swords near. Gift Dhely to Celts. Make Peace with Babylons for 26 +9 gpt (they pay of course). Capture Satsuma. Gift Osaka to France. Declare and Capture Lyon and Orlean. Bring more troops to Celtia. Basically 4 Fronts in operation is too much for my brain. Lost 3 vet Knight vs 1 Impy in Zimbabwe, both Trebuchets failed!
Arabia does not want to talk. (That’s good as Internal front (5) could be too much).
IBT Some contra-attack from France (no or 1 losses) . Others quiet, even India(?).
3 280*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights arrive to India and some go around Japan to Rome. Declare Celtia capture “Comberlunm”, (easy, even kill some GS around, but loss 1 Knight). Bring more troops there, 3 pickman, 2 Mi, 2 Crusaders, 4 Knights. Capture Tokyo, unload at Rome. Japanise Capital jump far North. If hold WLKD looks that Kyoto needs 3-4 Units in. Capture Reims, but France not ready to talk yet.
Trade Lux to Hitties for 18 gpt.
Arabia also don't want to talk.
IBT massive (countless) contra-attack from Celts. 6 units Lost, but it is so many GS that no way to hold it. Fortunately 3 Galleys may evacuate it. Sing RoP with Maya, Gift them Former Celt City
4 290*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean. More Knights arrive to near Neapolis. Sing RoP with Maya, Gift them former Celtic City. Capture Bangalore, Dhely (no losses). Plan to capture Lahore and make peace next turn.
Arabia does not want to talk. Send Archer, Knight redlined, but Reg warrior killed it.
IBT massive contra-attack from India. They killed 2 Knights in open ground.
5 300*AD Capture Neapolis. More Knights arrive to Rome and went to Veli. It is so many Legionnaires that need to fight forward. Unload 3 Trebuchets 2 Knights and Crusader in Maya. Make Peace with Zulu 24 + 9gpt.
Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Maya declare! Massive (countless) contra-attack killed all and destroye trebuchets.
6 310*AD fail to take Veli and make peace with Rome.
IBT It was peacefull
7 320*AD Make peace with Celts. Got R+ City +9 g. Set Walls. Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Nothing..
Will continue, may be finish today.
IBT Some) contra-attack from Japan.
1 260*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights will arrive to India. For effective Chain they may load at Mpondo, not from swamp.
Declare India, Capture Madras and Deheli. Capture Osaka.
Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Massive horse contra-attack from India; Lost 1 Knights and MI. Zimbabwe flipped. Mongol arrived. Egypt asked for Peace, I agreed, they pay “nothing!”, but I was not sure because Mongols have the same color.
2 270*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights arrive to Madras and strike and capture Calcutta. No losses, but no way to hold dhely as 12-15 swords near. Gift Dhely to Celts. Make Peace with Babylons for 26 +9 gpt (they pay of course). Capture Satsuma. Gift Osaka to France. Declare and Capture Lyon and Orlean. Bring more troops to Celtia. Basically 4 Fronts in operation is too much for my brain. Lost 3 vet Knight vs 1 Impy in Zimbabwe, both Trebuchets failed!
Arabia does not want to talk. (That’s good as Internal front (5) could be too much).
IBT Some contra-attack from France (no or 1 losses) . Others quiet, even India(?).
3 280*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean More Knights arrive to India and some go around Japan to Rome. Declare Celtia capture “Comberlunm”, (easy, even kill some GS around, but loss 1 Knight). Bring more troops there, 3 pickman, 2 Mi, 2 Crusaders, 4 Knights. Capture Tokyo, unload at Rome. Japanise Capital jump far North. If hold WLKD looks that Kyoto needs 3-4 Units in. Capture Reims, but France not ready to talk yet.
Trade Lux to Hitties for 18 gpt.
Arabia also don't want to talk.
IBT massive (countless) contra-attack from Celts. 6 units Lost, but it is so many GS that no way to hold it. Fortunately 3 Galleys may evacuate it. Sing RoP with Maya, Gift them Former Celt City
4 290*AD Intesive Ship chain via Ocean. More Knights arrive to near Neapolis. Sing RoP with Maya, Gift them former Celtic City. Capture Bangalore, Dhely (no losses). Plan to capture Lahore and make peace next turn.
Arabia does not want to talk. Send Archer, Knight redlined, but Reg warrior killed it.
IBT massive contra-attack from India. They killed 2 Knights in open ground.
5 300*AD Capture Neapolis. More Knights arrive to Rome and went to Veli. It is so many Legionnaires that need to fight forward. Unload 3 Trebuchets 2 Knights and Crusader in Maya. Make Peace with Zulu 24 + 9gpt.
Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Maya declare! Massive (countless) contra-attack killed all and destroye trebuchets.
6 310*AD fail to take Veli and make peace with Rome.
IBT It was peacefull
7 320*AD Make peace with Celts. Got R+ City +9 g. Set Walls. Arabia does not want to talk.
IBT Nothing..
Will continue, may be finish today.
I. Larkin
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Very good observation. So we have to make "close pack" like morden jail.
"Single comfortobal Island like Zulu and Japan have ATM is "Luxery". We need to find 11x7 or rectangular 9x9 square with "close-pack" where all AI will sit at the end of Game.
Another thing to discuss: Now Babedy, Vispezi and Novgorod in Forbiden zone and icrease corruption of FP area.
Corthose in Novgorod may make at least Novgorod productive But Babedy Icpezy is absolute rubish.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Wow, things sound really fragmented. I'll take a look at the save as soon as I can.
Sounds good on DWetzel's resettling plan. Definitely keep a few military units in the jail and get ROPs from everyone. They should agree to ROPs after we bludgeon them some more. Bummer that there are so few "free" domination tiles. I was wondering about that.
Piecemeal wars is a little inevitable on 'pelago maps, but we need to minimize this. We are seeing the power of isolated civs having tons of units just sitting around. I can't remember all the landmasses right now, but where possible we need to concentrate on landmasses that have multiple civs, such as the aforementioned Greece/German/Mongol bloc. Signed those civs in on MAs against each other was a savvy move, Lancelot.
. We need to do more schemes like that. Get the AI to kill each others stacks off. Makes it soooo much easier.
I'll add that having so many civs plus the relatively inability to kill off the loose threads makes this game have a very hectic feel. We will do well if we keep from being distracted by all this. Getting some more settlers and making a jail asap will really help. Speaking of which, how are we doing on the settler production?
Sounds good on DWetzel's resettling plan. Definitely keep a few military units in the jail and get ROPs from everyone. They should agree to ROPs after we bludgeon them some more. Bummer that there are so few "free" domination tiles. I was wondering about that.
Piecemeal wars is a little inevitable on 'pelago maps, but we need to minimize this. We are seeing the power of isolated civs having tons of units just sitting around. I can't remember all the landmasses right now, but where possible we need to concentrate on landmasses that have multiple civs, such as the aforementioned Greece/German/Mongol bloc. Signed those civs in on MAs against each other was a savvy move, Lancelot.
. We need to do more schemes like that. Get the AI to kill each others stacks off. Makes it soooo much easier.I'll add that having so many civs plus the relatively inability to kill off the loose threads makes this game have a very hectic feel. We will do well if we keep from being distracted by all this. Getting some more settlers and making a jail asap will really help. Speaking of which, how are we doing on the settler production?
Two comments on that topic:
- I like the "packing idea" you described for Korea. Here is a similar possibility, not quite as good, but still packing 5 civs into an area of 42 domination-relevant tiles (see red line in the picture), which means 8.4 tiles per civ.
- Now a question: I didn't understand, why you took 2/3 of the domination limit?! The domination limit is already 2/3 of the total, so shouldn't the calculation be like this:
Currently CivAssistII estimates the domination limit as 1560 tiles. There's still quite an amount of "black area", which we know must be land, but CivAssist doesn't know yet. So the limit will be a bit higher, perhaps somewhere around 1700 tiles. So we have:
1700 is 2/3 ==> 850 is 1/3
We need 2/3 and can leave 1/3 to the AI. A certain amount of these 850 tiles will be coast tiles, but still this makes it a bit easier for us: we'll probably have a bit over 600 tiles to pack the 24 AIs into.
Lanzelot
Very good, so the war with Celtia was actually quite successful! Loosing two cities should weaken them a bit, and we have a foothold that can absorb their initial attack. But we need to be fast with our "second attempt", before that town flips back to them...
India has been "run over" quite quickly, despite their big stack of swordsmen... amazing!
I noticed there is quite a number of cities with a high flip risk: Zimbabwe, some of the French, Japanese and Indian cities. As the example of Zimbabwe has shown, these flips can be really painful (loosing 3 Kts for retaking!). So we should do something against this. Gift away these cities? (We can't gift all of them away...) Or settler-abandon and re-settle?
Question: why is the flip risk in Calcutta 0, and in Delhi 2.5 - 5.2%?
The 6 garrison in Calcutta can't make that much of a difference! (Delhi would requite 24 garrison.) If we understand, what's going on here, we may be able to take advantage of that.Othniel: unfortunately it looks like all other civs are isolated. Don't know if it would be effective to "sign them up" against each other, because usually AIs are pretty bad at naval invasions!? They will probably send a single archer over to their enemy, and the monster stacks will stay at home...
Lanzelot
