SGOTM 14 - klarius

We should take the final two cities on the Celtic island easily enough next turn. Our problem there is to get our units off the island without wasted time, given that our Carracks in the area have less than half the transport capacity required. So, we should change Faro, Oporto, and Yaroslavl to Carrack builds right now, despite the waste of shields, and rush Carracks in Novgorod and Alesia. (Rushing a harbour in Alesia is a good idea, BTW, but it can wait a little.) This (counting the depleted elite off Novgorod) will give us a force of eleven Carracks in the area to begin next turn, with which we can land the army and thirty other units next to Cumae on the fourth turn of the next round. Overseer, if you aren't clear on how this schedule is possible with differential naval movement, just ask.

The force from the Celtic island, with which we hope to accomplish a lot, should not be diverted to Japan. Our Japanese campaign may go slowly for a while due to lack of units, but the efficient way to reinforce that front is with new units shipped from Nineveh. We should immediately rush three more cav within a turn's move of Nineveh (Nineveh, Rostov, Cacela), so that the reinforcement available in Japan in two turns will be six cav rather than three. After this we should leave a ship chain in place between Nineveh and Kyoto (or Edo), rather than keeping all our ships in the theatre in one lump.

I'll repeat Elephantium's warning that we have to stop our war with the Japanese at some point to gift them a refuge, and the same applies to the Romans.

We'll need to gift the Iroquois a refuge next turn before returning to war with them and taking Grand River, and since letting them have Future Retirement Home would be too risky (see below), we'll have to rush a settler before hitting Enter where it can found a retirement city next turn. I'd rush the settler in Zimbabwe and found the refuge two tiles NW of Zim, since enemy towns sandwiched between our own like this cost us the fewest tiles; perhaps we should have recognized this earlier. Or if the next player finds this alarming, we can just rush a settler in Philadelphia and found the Iroquois refuge in the American tundra. A site on the Inca island would not be as good, since it would be too close (for flip purposes) to the Iroquois cities we'll be keeping.

In the case of the Mongols we can just follow the usual course of gifting them a refuge before we declare war. I'd land on the hill S-SW-SW from Grand River, and probably take the fogged-out northwestern Mongol city before lunging for Karakorum; this should give us a chance to assess how much they have to throw at us. It's important that while we conduct this campaign, our nine Carracks in the region should move to the positions from which they'll ferry our units from Mongolia to Germany and Greece. If they just loiter around the Iroquois island until we finish with the Mongols we'll lose a lot of time.

We shouldn't retire any more civs to the tundra on our home continent, except perhaps when we're just about to win; that region is too crowded and we'd be courting disaster. So we shouldn't gift away Future Retirement Home (it would be better to re-name it), or Castelo Branco. There are acceptable sites for two tundra refuges each on the American and Inca islands. But in fact, there's nothing sacred about the principle of putting retirement cities in infertile terrain at this point. The sites two NW of Hlobane, two NW of Zimbabwe, and two NW of St Petersburg all look good to me; they may only cost us three tiles apiece towards domination, whereas the coastal refuges we've been founding typically cost us nine.

It looks as though researching to Magnetism for shippable three-unit armies would cost us about four thousand gold--the price of thirteen cav or twenty-five Carracks rushed from scratch. It's not an obvious choice, but I'd still rather have the cash for rushing. We can't have Magnetism for another eight turns; and not too long after that, if we play correctly, our armies will be on the last islands they'll need to reach, and will be able to receive their third units even if we then can't ship them. What we should do instead is use our next Leader to rush the Military Academy, which--since the math works out very favourably--will raise the attack value of our two-unit cav armies from seven to nine. We don't need units any stronger than that to finish this one off.

Of course, we would rush the Academy in any town near the Leader where a cultural expansion would be helpful. Having it in a core town where we could actually build armies means nothing at this point.
 
Well, it's more than twenty-four hours since Elephantium posted with no word from Overseer. So, Rat, go ahead and play if you feel inclined, and we can fit Overseer in when he shows up.
 
ok, will play tonight then...
 
lol, that's why I passed off the save when I did. It took me over four hours to play those five turns, and I didn't want the other five to be spaced out across another three or four days.
 
I am available, but I am happy to let Rat take it, if he wants.
 
Glad to hear from you, Overseer, but I suggest that we let Rat keep it since he generally plays quickly, with you next:

Klarius - Skipped
Elephantium
Northern Pike
Overseer - On deck
Rat - Playing
Great Beyond - In the hole
Vind
 
Pre-Turn
massive game, it takes a while to adjust what's going on

rush things since we got the cash:
temple in NY, settler in Machu picchu, Zimbabwe and Philadelphia
Cav in Damascus, faro, 3 cavs aound Nineveh
harbor in Tours so it can grow and get a retirement settler there
Faro Oporto, Novgorod Alesia and Yaro get a carrack, rush other stuff such as temples, settles etc
all for strategic reasons
leave us with 3k for the next round of rushing stuff

1. 410AD
starts great, lose a cav against a Indian sword that landed
can only defeat the pike and we would lose a city...might need to make peace

ok, first over to Celtic land
take Camulodunum and Entremont

make peace with Iro's, gift them city between Philadelphia and Boston
declare war again and take Grand River, smash 7 potential pillagers there

at Kyoto smash 2 units, flip risk is high but our troops are all wounded and within each of the enemy
found Future Mongol Retire on Celtic land

massive fleet loading and movement in preparation for the Roman campaign

decide to make peace with India, we need to gift them a home anyway before invading
since thy demand republic as well, sell it to them for 47gold, maybe thy revolt now :)

rush stuff to prepare for a Roman retirement, more temples, settlers and units
leaves us with 1.2k

IT Japan loses 2 swords and 1 horse at Kyoto
we're also lucky hat the city doesn't flip

2. 420AD
our income dropped to 869gpt
the fleet sails on to Roman land, carracks arrive in 2/3 turns

make peace with Celts, defeat the 3 remaining units in iro land, load 5 armies into caracks to attack Mongols
next turn, found 2 cities there
found Roman Retirement and 2 more cities

Trying to establish ship chains from our land to iro land so we can get units there faster
Decide to attack Edo, take out 4 spears and the city is ours :dance:
Osaka is within reach, attack, lose 1 Cav but take the city as well
remove 5 more units that could attack or pillage, lose another Cav though

rush some stuff

3. 430AD
take out 2 units and Satsuma is ours, we can now make peace with Japan
take out 3 more units

all carracks arrive at Roman land for next turn drop

gift Mongols their new home far away from their land
declare war and land our armies

rush more stuff

IT what? all the Mongols do is run around with 1 musket?

4. 440AD
make peace with Japan and Rome and gift thm each a city
declare on both again, take Tokyo and that Island is ours

have an idea that we can land on Persian land and found a city before the attack
can't land directly next to Cumae, but on the mountain next to it

fighting Mongols will be tight
take out 3 muskets, but almost lose an army that retreats with 1 hp
use the 5th army for some strategic pillage so we can land additional units

IT we lose a musket to Rome

5. 450AD
stop here for discussion (I will continue from there tomorrow)

I want the team to give me input on the following:

1. Rome
I think we can try and take Cumae taking out hat mini stack of 6 legions next to us. If things don't go too well, we can always evacuate the whole force and land elsewhere

2. Mongols
We face potentially 3 attacks next tun which doesn't sound too bad. Flip risk is around 3%. Maybe we keep the city to let the armies heal and then go out attack and abandon Kazan town rushing settlers to ship over?

3. Persia
I am planning to send a settler over and settle right at the edge of the empire to prepare for the next assault. I would take the Persian city on our continent as it take too many tiles and gift them a squeeze city as I did with others.

We currently have 35/40, still some way to go


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Klarius_SG014_AD0450_01.SAV
 
I'll take a look at the save tonight. In general, be aggressive. I think I was overly timid when I was playing my half-turnset. We can easily afford to take some risks to keep up the momentum - we have good production rates and enough gold to rebuild an entire invasion force anytime we need it. The only thing to worry about is keeping the armies alive.
 
For the persains, you right, their current city on our continent takes up too many domination tiles, I think cusco could make a nice retirement home for them.

For the mongol, maybe we could rush a settler if we get rid of the 3 resistors fast. There once we take their capital there is going to be alot of open space.
 
1. Cumae seems takeable. 2. Healing the armies sounds good, but losing them to a flip would be disastrous. Let them heal 1 turn and get them out. If we burn all their cities, won't most of their units "evaporate" with lack of unit support? Then we can settle using our own spacing. 3. Persias retirement home needs to be like the Mongols, inland, food and resource poor, and squeezed on all sides. Looks good.
 
1. The situation around Cumae is indeed awkward without the army as a stack anchor--was a mis-click involved? Anyway, I agree that we should overrun the stack of six Legionaries and take Cumae. Then you can assess how best to protect the cav units left with no movement outside Cumae. We may have enough unmoved cav left then to destroy most enemy units (though probably not the ones on the mountain) that could attack them.


2. A 3% chance of a mass loss of armies which would stall our eastern offensive is far too high just for the sake of some healing. We should abandon Kazan this turn.

As you say, the Mongols are going to be a tough opponent with their musketmen and longbowmen. Don't do this lightly, but if you feel that putting a third unit in one army would speed things up in Mongolia, I'd say that that would be acceptable. I'll repeat, though, that the best way of making our armies stronger would be by building the Military Academy with our next Leader, if the opportunity arises.


3. Your ideas for the Persian campaign sound fine. Bear in mind that squeeze cities work best when our squeezing towns have temples, or they lose the culture war to the enemy palace. For this reason we might want to rush temples in Philadelphia (necessary soon anyway) and Ourique.


The Americans and the Iroquois will make peace, and we aren't getting any happiness from those wars.

We'll want quite a few Carracks available at the south end of the Roman island when our cav units get there, so the Carracks off Cumae shouldn't all move backward.

If we burn all their cities, won't most of their units "evaporate" with lack of unit support?

Even if a civ has, say, a hundred units and support for four, only one unit a turn can disappear; so this is a hopelessly slow method. You may be remembering how things worked in Civ II.
 
Thanks guys for the valuable feedback.

Decided to do the following (will play tonight only in around 12 hours):

1. Persia
Settle a city and ship over units. Rush a temple and walls there. Take the Persian city and gift them some squeezed junk before war declaration.

2. Rome
Attack the 6 legion stack and evacuate (all ships are in open water for maximum movement) and come back with the army. The army was left behind as it had to heal and I didn't want to delay the landing. I didn't expect the mountain next to Cumae to be occupied. It would have made taking Cumae easier.
The alternative to this is taking out 6 legions and stay on the mountain while shipping over the army. Once the army is within reach (a turn later), we can take Cumae and bring in the army to protect any exposed stack.
Cavalry on a moutain versus legions should be doing fine? Anyone has a combat calculator to tell us the odds?

3. Mongols
Will abandon the city for the 3% flip risk and bring over more settlers. Mongol land is big and will give us many more cities and land. We will have to outsmart the AI here and take out their cities while leaving the stacks alone.

Generally I rushed quite a few temples already to fill every corner of the world (coastal tiles also need to get within our culture zone). I tried to get some shipping lanes going from mainland -> France -> Iro land as well as mainland -> Persia in future.

I will make peace with America and Iro of course. I have also been monitoring the AI so they don't attack each other. The best strategy is to gift them junk cities within our borders (not coastal) far away from their original land. This has been done with Iro, Rome, Japan, Mongols so far.
Egypt and China do have offshore refuges already. If we play smart and agressive, we should be able to finish the campaign rather quickly.

Have you guys checked out the territory graph? We are far ahead of ivan now. Their low tech gambit hasn't paid well I assume. :D
 
I don't mind waiting one turn to seize Cumae, but two is too many. So I'd rather take out the stack of six and fortify our cav on the mountain--which offers odds actually better, if the remaining Legionaries attack us, than if we were attacking them--than accept a three-turn process of embarking, landing again, and taking Cumae.

I agree with your other ideas.

The Spooks seem to be executing the low-tech gambit more efficiently than Team Ivan, and look like our main competition at the moment.
 
Agreed with NP - attack the mountain next to Cumae this turn.

We should settle some AI retirement homes near Najran - we should be able to fit three retirement homes in that desert.
 
5. 450AD
make peace with America and Iro
shop units over to Persia including a settler

almost lose an army taking out a musket in Mongol land
land more units there including a settler, that should give good access to Karakorum

clear all 6 legions without losses and fortify th stack, the army is available next turn

rush stuff as usual

IT what an interturn
Mongols are distracted by our new settler and do not attack Kazan (I did not abandon it as the flip was only 2.3% max)
the Zulu declare war on Arabs and almost defeats the spear in their last town, this arrangement is bad!!! :eek::eek::eek:
Rome doesn't bother about our stack at all and empties Cumae for us :)

6. 460AD
some deals have expired and income drops to 692gpt
shield Arabia from Zulu
clear Japanese landing in Japan

start to attack Cumae and finally get a MGL
take out 4 units and the city is ours, the issue now is, if we form another army we can
shield units to attack next city, so i decide to go for that
attack next city and lose 1 cav but defeat around 8 units
If we take the city, we need to raze it, thus I leave it alone so we can take it next tun when there are fewer units around
defeat a few more units in the open losing a cav to a spear

ship more cavs to Persia, we now have 13 there, will wait a bit longer
in fact Persia is rich and can pay 140gpt of a tech, too bad

over to Mongolia
take out 3 muskets and move towards Karakorum, this won't be easy
take out 2 muskets and get more units in position
cover the settler pair with an army, abandon Kazan

IT Mongols retreat but can't reach anything as we pillaged key roads :evil:
Rome behaves as expected and climbs the mountain next to Cumae

7. 470AD
take out 5 units and Veii is ours
move one of the armies towards Rome, the est moves to Veii and abandon Cumae

attack Karakoum and we lose an army :wallbash: but take the city with ease
found another city on a hill to cause more confusion , ship over more units and 2 more settler

gift Persia Orleans, declare war and attack Ellipi, take out 2 units but town stands
take out 3 units and capture Arbela. move units forward to counter

IT Persia attacks Arbela with a knight but loses
Mongols advance many unis towards Karakorum
Rome moves towards Veii

8. 480AD
make peace with Japan finally
abandon Karakorum and move towards Tabriz and Almarikh

take Ellipi on our land
lose 1 cav but take Antioch after taking out only 2 units

Veii flips risk is zero, I want to keep the city and take out all those legions there so we can keep the rest of the cities
ship over 6 more units from Japan and take out 10 Roman legions + spear/archer combo

IT Rome loses 3 units attacking Veii
GA is over and I scroll forward just in case

9. 490AD
our income is still 538 gpt

Mongols: take Tabriz and Almarikh without losses, only 1 city left to finish that campaign
get units in position to attack Tatu next turn

Rome: take out 6 units and Rome is ours, position us that we can ake the rest next turn
carracks move south as well

Persia: we barely take Persepolis, lose 1 cav only but the city had 7 pikes
worse, behind are Aztec sword/mace, barely take them out, no more unis left here for now

MM properly for the new situation, rush more settlers, cavs and temples

IT Mongols attack New Lisbon and lose 2 LB. they also land 2 units elsewhere
The slaves bait worked and thy exit 2 muskets from Tatu tying to grab them

10. 500AD
Mongols:
take out 3 muskets and Tatu is ours
take out 2 landed units as I don't like them near other AI and then go for peace netting 30g + 9gpt
we now need to quickly claim all that land, send out a few settler already

Rome:
take Antium and Neapolis, get peace with them as well

we have carracks around but I will leave it to the next player to move them as wished
the units can be nicely used to attack Aztec that we are at war with

At Persia attack and take Pasargadea
we need to rest our units before attacking the last town

we need to decide whether we want to attack Greece or Germany next
we should not split our units though

I suggest
Rome -> Aztecs
Mongols -> Greece/Germany
Persia -> Aztecs

I also leave the rushing of units to the next player as its better that way
we need always more settlers to fill all the land and temples and cavs

our stats are now 42/52

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Klarius_SG014_AD0500_01.SAV
 
A look at our southern routes. I have places carracks so we can chain ship units. We of course have to adapt the changing enemies. However I don't think carracks are an issue for now. We got plenty of them

kla500aex3.jpg


The eastern route, that can be changed in future as we can bypass Iro land. Remember the differential movement for carracks.
kla500byc7.jpg
 
Klarius
Elephantium
Northern Pike
Overseer - Up
Rat - Played
Great Beyond - On Deck
Vind- In the Hole

Good to see the team's pace is back :)

I think we should ROP with all the exiled civs that are at war with other civs. and place some troops there as buffers to avoid any potential loss of AI life.

Also, I would rather go for Germany first, as that opens up the road to the very nice looking Mayan and Korean lands.
 
Fine work, especially against the Mongols. :goodjob:

I'll have more detailed comments later. But I'll mention now that I don't think our force in Persia should just join the Roman force's assault on the Aztec island, as suggested by Rat. This would leave us with redundant strength there and no third axis of advance. The Persian force, along with the army in Antium shipped over to it as a stack anchor, should attack Korea and then India.

BTW, could someone with an appropriate authorized utility post the exact number of tiles we need for domination, and the number we have at the moment? We all need this information now, and CivAssist II has never worked for me. (If you're there, Alan, CAII claims it can't find the NET framework even though I've installed it--why?)
 
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