SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

BTW, who's up? ZPV until Writing? bbp? me?

I'm out 'till after my trip. I guess you're up then, unless ZPV wants more turns.

 

[ZPV]

BTW, who's up? ZPV until Writing? bbp? me?

I'm out 'till after my trip. I guess you're up then, unless ZPV wants more turns.

I see the game up to the wonders having the following phases:
> Founding one or two more cities that are needed for our wonders and development, with a bare-bones warrior corps.
> Turning our bare-bones spawnbusting into a comprehensive bare-bones spawnbusting force, starting to tech with a library and specialists, starting to plan the chops.
> Final preparations in our workers and cities to get the wonders out.
> Watch the wonder movies.

We're moving from a stage where the focus was uncovering spots for our settlers, to the first of these. The change of focus I think represents a good time to hand over the reins.

So Mitchum, you're going to be up next.

 

[Mitchum]

Got it. It appears that we're using ZPV's tactic of mass chopping the GLH and 'Mids. I'll take a quick look at the last saves by ZPV and LC to figure out what you guys were doing. I'll likely have to switch up the build order a bit in Gems to get out another spawn buster or two. Feel free to give me anything you think will be useful in preparing the PPP. I don't expect to do much more than just glance at the saves tonight.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We don't need to worry about barbs entering our cities until 27 player cities, right?***

According to ZPV's test, we're in slavery around 1800BC iirc. From that point on, our fringe cities--Pigs, Stone, and Gems--need to have >=p2 and a 2t warning to put a hammer into an archer build and 1poprush an archer. So the simple question is, can we get those cities founded and up to p2 before there are 27 cities?*** If so, we don't need more units before then.

How many AI cities are there now? (Barb units begin at total player cities = 13, right?)

I'd like to test making a run for it, because I think the AIs might be expanding a bit slowly.



***ZPV or someone needs to check this for us. Barbs will enter sooner to pillage improvement which can lead them to capturing a city, iirc, so we need to watch for this too.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We'll know if it's the same landmass as our starting one, by whether our culture expands into the "1f1c ocean" that you've highlighted or not. If it does, same landmass; else an island.

Thanks, ZPV! I'd seen that variation before, but hadn't figured it out.

 

[ZPV]

We don't need to worry about barbs entering our cities until 27 player cities, right?***

According to ZPV's test, we're in slavery around 1800BC iirc. From that point on, our fringe cities--Pigs, Stone, and Gems--need to have >=p2 and a 2t warning to put a hammer into an archer build and 1poprush an archer. So the simple question is, can we get those cities founded and up to p2 before there are 27 cities?*** If so, we don't need more units before then.

How many AI cities are there now? (Barb units begin at total player cities = 13, right?)

I'd like to test making a run for it, because I think the AIs might be expanding a bit slowly.



***ZPV or someone needs to check this for us. Barbs will enter sooner to pillage improvement which can lead them to capturing a city, iirc, so we need to watch for this too.

Here are the barb unit priorities:

Guard a city
Guard a goody hut
50% chance of pillage an adjacent tile.
Attack a unit (range 1)
>27 cities:
  city attack, range 1
  pillage, range 3
  city attack, range 2
  target city (lemming attack the target city)
>18 cities
  pillage, range 2
  city attack, range 1
Heal
Guard a city
Patrol --- avoids being in or adjacent to owned territory
Retreat

Barbs start to spawn when there are 14 player cities.

Before there are 19 cities we have absolutely nothing to worry about - barbs won't move adjacent to our borders naturally, and from further away they won't consider to pillage a tile just inside our borders.

 

[LowtherCastle]

So they don't follow our units intentionally (range = 2)? Rather only accidentally by patrolling in the direction of our unit?

 

[ZPV]

So they don't follow our units intentionally (range = 2)? Rather only accidentally by patrolling in the direction of our unit?

Exactly.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I've held onto my intermediate and auto saves, and will upload them if anyone wants them.

Unless you've already figured out the AI city count, I'll try to figure out when their cultures expanded, if you upload the saves for me.

 

[shyuhe]

Unless you've already figured out the AI city count, I'll try to figure out when their cultures expanded, if you upload the saves for me.

There are no creative civs in the game from what I remember.

 

[ZPV]

Unless you've already figured out the AI city count, I'll try to figure out when their cultures expanded, if you upload the saves for me.

Here they are. I'll have a go at working out AI cities, etc.

 

[ZPV]

Here they are. I'll have a go at working out AI cities, etc.

   us total us  2nd  av.pop, land  city sizes
t33 4 32  12.12 24% 43875 
t34 4 32  12.12 24% 43875 18500
t35 4 32  12.12 24% 43875 18500
t36 4 34  11.43 25% 54750 18500 (6 6 4 3 3 3 3 2)
t37 4 34  11.43 25% 54750 18500
t38 4 38  10.26 25% 63500 19375 (6 6 4 4 4 3 3 3, +1)
t39 4 40  09.76 26% 63750 21000 (6 6 4 4 4 3 3 3, +1 +1 +1)

1000
6000
21000
48000
90000
150000

The barbs have size 1 throughout.
At the end of t39 there are 13 player cities. Most likely, an AI will found IBT and real barbs will start to spawn this turn.

 

[Mitchum]

Do barb cities count in the number of cities calculations? In LC's last test game, there were 29 cities controlled by either us or the AI at 1000 BC. I think we should plan on barbs being able to enter our culture around 1200 BC or so to be on the safe side. We can monitor it as we go, but this will give us something to plan for.

Regarding our current warriors, I plan to move the wounded warrior in NY immediately to the forested tile 1S of the corn, stepping on forests the whole way there to keep Dhoomstriker happy. When stepping on that forested tile and leaving our cultural border, it's possible that he'll step right next to a barb lurking at corn-S+SE. Since he's wounded, this is a risk. I can heal him within our cultural borders first, but that will leave some tiles un-spawn busted... If he heals on the corn, only one single tile (the GHill) will be spawnable. This warrior will stay in this area until the Washington's borders pop, which will de-fog the entire SE. He can then move N to spawn bust around the stone.

The other wounded warrior will stay where he is since he's spawn busting the pigs area. Or, should he heal, explore the pigs area a bit better, and then return to his spawn busting location?

Should I try to squeeze in another warrior/archer or two so that we can fully spawn bust our area and/or send a scouting unit toward the hub?

ZPV, are there any known animals out there or have we killed all those that have been spotted?

I'll work on the rest of my plan but wanted to get feedback on our warrior plan as I work on the rest.

 

[Mitchum]

How about Fifth Element! They settled on T1. I'd say they settled 1W of the marble and built the Oracle. Not a bad gambit if they can do something with it, but that sureluy would put their capital way out of the center of things.

I was thinking that they build Stonehenge. +1 and +1 in each city...

 

[ZPV]

Mitchum - there's a lion somewhere a little north of Stone. That's the only animal I know of.

There is only just time to get to the corn-S forest on the same turn as our settler, so no stopping to heal - on t44 it can move onto the forest to reveal the tiles and make sure there isn't a barb there, and the settler moves later on the same turn. He can move north after that - probably stopping to heal since we know there's a lion there now.

I'm not quite sure about the pig-warrior. I guess I'd move over to reveal the rest of the pig-coast area, then camp on a forest hill hoping to kill whichever animal or barb moves our way.

Scouting the hub: no, that's a suicide mission at the moment. An AI scout might get through to us, but they swarm in a way we can't.
Squeezing in extra units: maybe in NY.

 

[mdy]

I also think we should build an extra warrior, the cost is small compared to the costs of an inconvenient barb getting through. I also think that exploring the hub (If it is a hub map, which I am beginning to doubt) is best left till we get better units/galleys.

 

[LowtherCastle]

ZPV, where do you get the 2nd pop % (24/25/26) again?

Interesting data here. From the religion screen on the T36/2560BC save, we know that 3 different AIs founded the three religions. That also means that the p6 AI with Judaism expanded his capital's borders T38 or T39 depending on whether he's religious or not. So that border expansion is part of the 7 tiles or 13 tiles the AIs grew on T38 and T39, respectively. That means the 3 cities just settled plus capital border expansion accounted for only 20 new tiles. Probably all coastal cities.

Comparing the real game with our test save for T39, the real AIs are expanding marginally slower and have somewhat less GNP, but their GNP is still kicking our asses. I assume that means they're researching quite a bit faster than we are.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Based on ZPV's data, as soon as we build City 3 and all AIs have built their second city, barbs will pillage from 2 tiles. That means our sheep and wheat will be vulnerable. Worse yet, once the barb moves to pillage the sheep, he can then target Gems City, being only 1 tile away. Since we're planning to build City 3 as soon as T45, that means Gems wheat is vulnerable as early as ~T46, and Gems a turn later...

So Gems City realistically has no choice but to build a unit asap. As it is, if a barb archer comes, Gems City could be undefendable.

EDIT: Better yet, just leave that warrior there, heal him, and put him on the forest hill on the SW spoke. Then Washington builds a warrior or archer for the NE stone area, either before or after the next settler. The settler can simply move to the corn, then move east to see if the coast is clear. If it is, he settles 1t later than planned, but safely. If it's not, then he backs off and life sux and then you die.

 

[shyuhe]

Do we want to build an archer instead of a warrior in gems? I imagine that city is going to have to fend off quite a few barbs.

 

[Mitchum]

OK

Here is my general plan for comment. I'll work out the details as I get feedback on the high-level plan.

Move the wounded warrior in NY immediately to the forested tile 1S of the corn, stepping on forests the whole way there . He steps on the final forest before the Marble settler to make sure that the coast is clear. Settler can step to corn-1SE to check the last fogged tile. If clear, he moves 1SW to settle at marble-1W on the next turn. Since the settler is now spawn busting, the warrior can begin marching north and will pause inside of our culture at oasis-1S to heal before continuing to spawn bust the stone area.

For the pigs warrior: take promotion now and heal 1T or heal 2 turns and save promotion? I would take the Woody I promotion now in case a panther jumps out of the fog and attacks us. Scout to grass hill 1N of northern silk and then go back to pig-NE+NE to spawn bust.

Research Writing -> Sailing -> Wheel "Look at wheel me make. Only have 5 sides!" -Og

Washington: worker -> settler (for marble) -> worker -> library (chopped)
Gems: WB -> warrior -> wkr or library?
Marble: what have you been building first ZPV? Do you steal the corn right away? -> LH -> GLH

Worker 1: finishes chop at Washington-1N -> chop Washington-1NW -> mine gems -> farm wheat
Worker 2: chop Washington-1NW-> mine gems -> mine PH at Washington-1NW

EDIT: X-post with LC and shyuhe