SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

The reason is we have a ton of worker techs we want, to develop our capital properly, and Alpha is the fastest way to get them all.
Not really. If we only really needed Mng+BW+W+Myst, Alpha itself is only 40b less. That 40b comes at the expense of having to wait to use those techs and 4 WFYABTA hits against random-personality AIs. Alpha and the two potential big gets from this gambit (Monarchy and IW) are the 3 easiest techs to trade for about 20t after your timeline, and not particularly useful in themselves (except IW on a situational basis - with a pile of jungle and gems).

We have 13t of exploring to do before we decide on anything. My compromise proposal this morning was to gain another 8t of delaying the decision, while researching Mining, at the cost of 3-4t off the potential Alpha date, without a delay in gpp.
 
I don't think he speaks English much at all. He's Serbian (same as yours truly). Yamps is Croatian. Maybe he'll be helping him with language? :dunno:

Makes his team much stronger indeed.
 
I think the save's available tmr night. Is it settler 1W first?
Moving the warrior east or southeast might reveal something interesting. It's a long shot, though.
@ZPV or anyone else,
What information do we need to note down as we play to start establishing AI personalities?

How much time do we have? :p
The very first things to note are whether they will declare war on someone, and on whom, at what attitudes.
AI attitudes towards each other could also be relevant.
Also look at their espionage spending towards us. It's probably not going to be useful, but it could tell us they're an espionage nut or they don't know anyone else.
 
I think the save's available tmr night. Is it settler 1W first?
I think that it was agreed that we would do Fog-gazing first. EDIT: What's not clear is how many people would be doing the fog-gazing and to what level.

Assuming nothing else was revealed, we'd move the Settler 1W, post a pic, and do some more fog-gazing. EDIT: Again, it's not yet clear who is going to do the fog-gazing and to what degree before we decide that we are ready to move to the next step.

From there, we'd decide as a group where to send the Warrior based on the info available on hand at that time.
 
The very first things to note are whether they will declare war on someone, and on whom, at what attitudes.
Similarly, we should be noting an AI's Attitude towards us along with:
- Their willingness to trade a Healthiness Resource
- Their willingness to trade a Happiness Resource
- Their willingness to trade a Strategic Resource
- Their willingness to stop trading with other players and also note what their attitudes are towards those other players
- Their willingness to switch Civics upon request (when that situation becomes applicable)
- Their willingness to switch Religions upon request (when that situation becomes applicable)

There are a lot of little details that we can look for if we only slow down a bit and take the time to record them.


Whenever one AI's Attitude changes towards another AI, we should be taking careful notes, as new info may be revealed. In fact, a good jumping point can often come from around Turn 50 (although that turn number scales with game speed, so we should confirm which turn it is in a test game) when players get a +1 Diplo modifier for having stayed at peace with the other players until that time, since there is a chance to see many Attitude changes occurring at that exact stage of the game.
 
I thought we were going to consider moving the warrior first depending on our fog gazing. Moving the warrior could expose hills, which could have gold, silver or gems.
 
Ok, we could do that. The only move that could expose something like that is SE, I think. Right? The only others that expose tiles is 1E or 1NE, but that could probably only show us more seafood. Let's wait for the fog-gaze then.

I got the impression that neil made some effort to prevent a surprise gold/silver, btw.

Random personalities:
Could we just axe rush someone, and see who has a -1 for "DOW my friend"? :D
Edit: that sounds good guys. We should make a list of things to look for and keep track of it. We similar things to good effect in SG12.
 
I thought we were going to consider moving the warrior first depending on our fog gazing. Moving the warrior could expose hills, which could have gold, silver or gems.
Here's the starting screenshot again:


Warrior 1SE reveals 1 hidden square that would be used if we settled by the Dry Corn and Crab.

Warrior 1NE reveals a bit of the water, to tell us if there is additional Seafood there.

Neither move is particularly compelling if we really don't think that we'll head to the east and settle on the Coast with our capital.

Therefore, Warrior going 1SW + 1SW or 1NW + 1NW could be more useful to us... that is... if we don't settle on Turn 0.

So, depending upon what we do, the Warrior's info could be a bit helpful, but is most likely going to be meaningless.


Could we just axe rush someone, and see who has a -1 for "DOW my friend"? :D
Nothing stops us from Axe-rushing an AI. We will not learn much about which AI has a Random Personality based on "DOW my friend" negative Diplo modifiers, unless we intentionally declare war on an AI with whom other AIs are Pleased and Friendly, and only then, we will only really narrow things down in a useful manner if it is one of those few AIs that really care about war declarations enough to give -2 instead of -1 as the penalty. That's a very costly way to learn, though, since it's a permanent Diplo hit.

There is the whole "X number of turns before being willing to talk" modifier, but since other factors (like war success) play a role in that determination, I'm not sure that we can conclusively say anything from the XML's value for willingness to talk after a war declaration. Some code-digging might tell us for certain if we can learn anything in this manner, but it is certainly not the most straight-forward manner to determine an AI's Personality.
 
Here is a picture after moving the warrior 1SE with bbp's test game.



Notice how this move exposed a hill S+SW and another E+SE. If there are hills in the distance, this warrior move could possible expose something interesting. It also exposes a few water tiles. I agree that neilmeister probably wouldn't put a luxury mining resource just out of view based on the complaining in games past, but you never know.
 

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Okay... but if you put on your fog-gazing hat, can you determine that each of those squares is or is not a Hills-based square BEFORE moving the Warrior?

If you're not sure, can you post a screenshot that encompasses the same area before the Warrior moves? I.e. Are we able to see all of these Hills with just simple fog-gazing?

Note for example that the initial screenshot of the real game is "cut off" a bit on the eastern edge, which could prevent a bit of fog-gazing.
 
I'd prefer to wait for the save before making any guesses about what lies in the fog and spending too much time fog gazing the test save makes no sense. It may not be possible to tell if there are any hills or not in the real game. What we're trying to do is get as much info as possible before settling, right? If we're leaning toward settling 1W on T0, then we need to find out as much as possible with the warrior and the settler's first half step before pulling the trigger.
 
I think that it would be a useful exercise for you to at least try to fog-gaze the test game to see if you can spot the terrain differences before moving the Warrior. I can do the same once I get to a Civ-capable computer. I mean, if fog-gazing is going to be our next step, it doesn't hurt to practice the technique, while it would be nice to know whether we can feel confident about the location of Hills squares with just fog-gazing; then we'd be better able to determine the risk of gaining info from fog-gazed Hills squares.

Of course, there is always the possibility of there being a flatland Gem Resource (i.e. a Commerce square that is not co-related with a Hills square), but yeah, if these is going to be a Gold/Silver/Hills Gem just out of visibility (which would be in poor taste given when neilmeister said on the subject), then being confident about being able to or not being able to fog-gaze for the presense of Hills would be of use.
 
I just fog-gazed the test game and I could tell that the two squares in question were hills quite easily. Already knowing that a hill is there makes it easier to spot the hill too... :mischief:
 
Sorry been busy lately.

How about we all fog gaze tomorrow and post our thoughts on where to move the warrior. On Thursday night (EST), I'll move the warrior in the direction as suggested and re-post the save (through this thread, as the SGOTM server doesn't handle same turn save posting) for further fog-gazing. Then I'll move the settler 1W on Friday night unless we find a compelling reason to not move the settler in that direction.
 
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