LowtherCastle
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ZPV, how are you getting the GLH in 1240BC? I've tried a few times, but don't have time to reinvent the wheel.
SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I'm chopping that forest 2W of Gems City for 20h. It's not elegant in terms of worker turns, but I'm reworking it to waste many fewer.
edit: from that save I posted on t56, the 2W forest needs to be chopped before finishing the second plains hill mine. Otherwise, 1200 is possible without sending a worker down from pigs to help with the chopping.
edit2: you can chop the tile Canal City will be on instead, saving the 2W one for once the borders have expanded.
LowtherCastle
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Does that mean you have three workers at the end for the 1240BC date?
Three near Gems city - one out in the west and two on the silk. I do seem to have screwed up somewhere, though - I'm short either a worker turn or some hammers. Rather, I guess it means I can't afford the plains hill mine up by Pigs after all. Maybe it's possible if I do it before the pig pasture, but if that's right then I don't want to be right.
There is also a worker over by washington, with two more coming t69 and t70 or 71.
LowtherCastle
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Some estimated tech-path comparisons:
How much of an advantage is 35t on this map? Galleons are twice faster* than galleys, 50% more capacity, but only 60% more expensive (80h vs. 50h).
*Ignoring ocean-going advantages
Code:
Mil units beaker/GS cost ETA
--------- -------------- ---
WEs+cats = 936 beakers T080
WEs+cats+HE = 1872 beakers T095
WEs+cats+HE+galleons = 4524 beakers + 4 GSes T115How much of an advantage is 35t on this map? Galleons are twice faster* than galleys, 50% more capacity, but only 60% more expensive (80h vs. 50h).
*Ignoring ocean-going advantages
LowtherCastle
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I estimate we can have Astro on T115, 1 AD, at the latest.
Here's the Astro line:
Here are the 4 GSes we need:
All born in Washington. We don't bulb, settle or academize our first GS in this case.
Here's the Astro line:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
LowtherCastle
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I estimate bulbing mathematics will save us 10t, bulbing optics will save us 5t.
Bulbing math not only helps with our chops and REX, but also gets us to Literature that much sooner, to build the GLib.
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Bulbing math not only helps with our chops and REX, but also gets us to Literature that much sooner, to build the GLib.
.
LowtherCastle
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Note that our GP production is completely different than last SG. All we really need is Rep (1 revolt) and 4 GSes (or fewer if our research kicks ass).
- We don't need CoL.
- We don't need Philosophy.
- We don't need Monotheism.
- We don't need 6 missionaries.
- We don't need Taoism.
- We don't need Pacifism.
- We don't need Caste System.
- We don't need Organized Religion.
- We don't need 4 or more revolts.
Mitchum
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@LC
Don't our gpp points from from 12 pre-GLib to 24 after we have the GLib. It looks like you're using 28...
In any event, one of the reasons we lost the last SGOTM because we waited for Astronomy before we started warring. Our war was much more efficient and took far fewer turns, but the fact that we started later hurt us. In this game, I think that we need to hit the AI ASAP since their tech rate is much faster than a standard game. Once they have Longbows, things are going to get much harder.
I'm okay with teching up to Astro as I agree that it will speed things up greatly on this type of map (and I really like your plan
). I just want to be sure that we don't let happen to us this game what happend last game. Would it be possible to do this AND take out an early AI, taking their metals/horses away from them? Plus, we need to see about the Wizard before we commit to how far into the tech tree we need to go.
Don't our gpp points from from 12 pre-GLib to 24 after we have the GLib. It looks like you're using 28...
In any event, one of the reasons we lost the last SGOTM because we waited for Astronomy before we started warring. Our war was much more efficient and took far fewer turns, but the fact that we started later hurt us. In this game, I think that we need to hit the AI ASAP since their tech rate is much faster than a standard game. Once they have Longbows, things are going to get much harder.
I'm okay with teching up to Astro as I agree that it will speed things up greatly on this type of map (and I really like your plan
). I just want to be sure that we don't let happen to us this game what happend last game. Would it be possible to do this AND take out an early AI, taking their metals/horses away from them? Plus, we need to see about the Wizard before we commit to how far into the tech tree we need to go.LowtherCastle
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@Mitchum
1. The GLib gives 2
. 
2. We lost the last SG because we took forever on our Astro path, not because we took it. Duckweed's analysis looks right, especially since they won, but it's wrong, imo. This time we're philosophical. That's a huge change already because if we wanted to go CoL+Philo we could bulb Philo and start our first GA to get all those revolts for free. But instead, we skip all that crap, as I mentioned above. Don't need it.
3. That SG thread someone linked which was similar to this said that the AIs started fast, but their teching slowed down, iirc. SHyuhe can tell us more. Anyway, WEs+cats beats the crap out of lbms. Just need more suiciders.
4. This map is far less suited to galley warfare because the Ais are dispersed to all corners of the world. Furthermore, there's no circumnavigation bonus. That's catastrophic for galley warfare, especially at normal speed.
5. We haven't seen any metals yet and neither have the two AIs we've met.
6. We don't know where the Wizard is. Maybe he's accessible only across the ocean. Maybe there are mountains in the middle of the hub, acting as a DECOY, and the real Wizard is off in the farthest corner of the map. As soon as we get Optics we should send scout/explorer+caravels in both directions to defog all the water tiles on the map, unless we've already found Oz.
7. In any case, I don't believe we can go wrong having Astro. Oh yeah, speaking of the AIs teching fast, what about MC and triremes? They love to build them....
Anyway, obviously I don't know for sure. I just thing al indicators point toward Astro. It came close last time. This time we have all sorts of factors in our favor to make it even moree powerful.
1. The GLib gives 2
. 2. We lost the last SG because we took forever on our Astro path, not because we took it. Duckweed's analysis looks right, especially since they won, but it's wrong, imo. This time we're philosophical. That's a huge change already because if we wanted to go CoL+Philo we could bulb Philo and start our first GA to get all those revolts for free. But instead, we skip all that crap, as I mentioned above. Don't need it.
3. That SG thread someone linked which was similar to this said that the AIs started fast, but their teching slowed down, iirc. SHyuhe can tell us more. Anyway, WEs+cats beats the crap out of lbms. Just need more suiciders.
4. This map is far less suited to galley warfare because the Ais are dispersed to all corners of the world. Furthermore, there's no circumnavigation bonus. That's catastrophic for galley warfare, especially at normal speed.
5. We haven't seen any metals yet and neither have the two AIs we've met.
6. We don't know where the Wizard is. Maybe he's accessible only across the ocean. Maybe there are mountains in the middle of the hub, acting as a DECOY, and the real Wizard is off in the farthest corner of the map. As soon as we get Optics we should send scout/explorer+caravels in both directions to defog all the water tiles on the map, unless we've already found Oz.
7. In any case, I don't believe we can go wrong having Astro. Oh yeah, speaking of the AIs teching fast, what about MC and triremes? They love to build them....
Anyway, obviously I don't know for sure. I just thing al indicators point toward Astro. It came close last time. This time we have all sorts of factors in our favor to make it even moree powerful.
GLib gives 2 (doubled to 4) GPP as well, Mitchum. edit: xpost with LC. Damn, he's fast.
There's a galley-navigable route to the NW - we could ferry units across here with 1 or 2 galleys or else try and sail right up to one of Liz/Khan's capitals. Not as a final war, but it would cripple/eliminate an AI and give us an extra capital.
I suspect we'll want CoL for courthouses and FP if we add another area to our empire, so best avoid meditation.
Will we get any GP from other cities? It's not hard to imagine running scientists in one of them to maybe give our 4th or 5th GS.
There's a galley-navigable route to the NW - we could ferry units across here with 1 or 2 galleys or else try and sail right up to one of Liz/Khan's capitals. Not as a final war, but it would cripple/eliminate an AI and give us an extra capital.
I suspect we'll want CoL for courthouses and FP if we add another area to our empire, so best avoid meditation.
Will we get any GP from other cities? It's not hard to imagine running scientists in one of them to maybe give our 4th or 5th GS.
Mitchum
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Forgot about the +2 (+4) from the GLib itself. 
I imagine that we'll be running scientists in several cities, especially if we're running Representation. Whether they catch up to the capital with 2 GS and the GLib is another question.
Speaking of which, if we want all of those GSs, does that mean that we will continue to hire 2 in Washington after we pop our first GS? I assume yes although I've heard talk about speeding up REX by not doing so.
I'm in favor of the Astro beeline, BTW.
I imagine that we'll be running scientists in several cities, especially if we're running Representation. Whether they catch up to the capital with 2 GS and the GLib is another question.
Speaking of which, if we want all of those GSs, does that mean that we will continue to hire 2 in Washington after we pop our first GS? I assume yes although I've heard talk about speeding up REX by not doing so.
I'm in favor of the Astro beeline, BTW.
LowtherCastle
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Sure. I assume that will happen. I just simplified the analysis as a proof of concept. It's 9t/17t/25t/34t/42t, iirc. So we could easily get the second and third elsewhere, especially if one city starts soon enough and Washington slows down for a while. FOr that matter, we could easily get all four without the GLib with Washington getting #1 and #4.
Btw, I assume will run 2 sci in almost every city. We need the beakers. 4000 beakers is a lot.
Mitchum
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I think the GLib is too good to pass up in this game. +16 GS gpp/turn, +12 base 
/turn (+15 with library bonus) under Representation, and half cost with marble. We'll need it even more if we have to research deeper into the tech tree.
If we're settled on founding Pigs 1S of the pigs resource as our next city, I can try to put together a PPP through Sailing today or tomorrow. We don't HAVE to decide on bulbing Math just yet (altough I think it's a good idea).
Or do we need more testing done?
/turn (+15 with library bonus) under Representation, and half cost with marble. We'll need it even more if we have to research deeper into the tech tree.If we're settled on founding Pigs 1S of the pigs resource as our next city, I can try to put together a PPP through Sailing today or tomorrow. We don't HAVE to decide on bulbing Math just yet (altough I think it's a good idea).
Or do we need more testing done?
I've found a way to do the t69-70 GLH without building the warrior in Pigs - there is just enough time to build a road on the gems if we skip/delay the pigs-plainshill mine. This way also allows us to get the road connecting our cities built on t69, which means we get the trade routes immediately.
Mitchum - it's up to you to decide whether to work the lake for a turn in Gems, to delay the WB and overflow into the Lighthouse. I don't think it matters much either way, so it's just a matter of preference.
I think I now prefer an immediate revolt to slavery - yes, it'll cost 7 instead of 6 gpt for a few turns when we have 3 cities, but it works better in Washington.
P.S. LC and I could go on like this for a month. Please don't let us. It'll frustrate the rest of the team and bore the crap out of the lurkers.
Mitchum - it's up to you to decide whether to work the lake for a turn in Gems, to delay the WB and overflow into the Lighthouse. I don't think it matters much either way, so it's just a matter of preference.
I think I now prefer an immediate revolt to slavery - yes, it'll cost 7 instead of 6 gpt for a few turns when we have 3 cities, but it works better in Washington.
P.S. LC and I could go on like this for a month. Please don't let us. It'll frustrate the rest of the team and bore the crap out of the lurkers.
LowtherCastle
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ZPV, can I see what our empire looks like when we get the GLH built?
LowtherCastle
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I would like to have 5 cities running 2 sci at 800BC and 8 at 500BC. Is that going to happen if we put all our resources into the GLH?
Just a sec. I'll give you a version with both WBs.
8 at 500BC shouldn't be a problem.
5 at 800BC? I'm not sure. It might mean prioritizing e.g. Libraries over Granaries
Here you are. Some of the things in Washington like the settler timing, etc. can still be fiddled with.
I'll try expanding to 6 cities and 5 libraries by 800BC from here.
edit: here's a preliminary play-through to 800BC. I'm not quite satisfied.
I'll try expanding to 6 cities and 5 libraries by 800BC from here.
edit: here's a preliminary play-through to 800BC. I'm not quite satisfied.
LowtherCastle
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Okay, I guess it's not looking too bad. Obviously we'll want to build granaries first. All cities will have to grow, so that's just how it is. That will help with poprushing and growth. Cities with 1 or 2 chops available and needing culture for food, like Ivory and Bridge, should probably chop a monument, then the granary. Then we'll poprush the library. Gems should build the granary, then probably focus on wbs for Marble, Canal (2), Pigs, and PigsNE. We don't want to work scientists there till we're sure it won't pop a GP because we don't want a GM in the first 4. FOr the sixth it would be okay because we could bulb guilds with it. Or do a trade mission.
If Washington has the GLib by 500BC it will build the 2nd and 4th GSes in 40t, so it needs to start working 2 sci by 1000BC for a 1AD completion. With a granary, though, it should still be able to poprush a settler or a worker.
Pigs desperately needs a granary, since it's working useless tiles with two citizens. We should probably research pottery before mysticism, so we can just 2pop it there asap. It can build wbs while growing or its library. Washington should also 2pop one asap, imo, and start poprushing regularly, although I'm not sure what it needs to build. We definitely need to get an archer pair out eventually to get one up to 8XP. Washington could also work on barracks.
This is all down the line a bit, but it's good to think about it so we can be prepared and not omit important details.
We should put as much energy into Canal as possible, because it can be a decent pump. Maybe even settle it before PigsNE, especially if there's already a worker down there.
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I'm still wondering if you can slow down GLH by a turn or two and free one of the workers, and otherwise improve our overall development. Pigs could definitely use that mine at pop3. We could use a few more roads. Stone needs its quarry, etc.
If Washington has the GLib by 500BC it will build the 2nd and 4th GSes in 40t, so it needs to start working 2 sci by 1000BC for a 1AD completion. With a granary, though, it should still be able to poprush a settler or a worker.
Pigs desperately needs a granary, since it's working useless tiles with two citizens. We should probably research pottery before mysticism, so we can just 2pop it there asap. It can build wbs while growing or its library. Washington should also 2pop one asap, imo, and start poprushing regularly, although I'm not sure what it needs to build. We definitely need to get an archer pair out eventually to get one up to 8XP. Washington could also work on barracks.
This is all down the line a bit, but it's good to think about it so we can be prepared and not omit important details.
We should put as much energy into Canal as possible, because it can be a decent pump. Maybe even settle it before PigsNE, especially if there's already a worker down there.
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I'm still wondering if you can slow down GLH by a turn or two and free one of the workers, and otherwise improve our overall development. Pigs could definitely use that mine at pop3. We could use a few more roads. Stone needs its quarry, etc.
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