SGOTM 14 - Unusual Suspects

[Xcalibrator]

ToA was BIAFAL on T76. Clever about trading marble but I would not gift the stone because we need it for the Hanging Gardens. Speaking of which, if we think we have a shot at it--and it would be very nice for the extra population, not to mention the health and GPPs--then NY should go straight to an aqueduct and the HG after finishing its settler next turn, not stopping for a library or worker. I'd even chop a forest or two for the aqueduct because that requires more base hammers (200) than the HG (175 with stone) and we'll only need 4 or 5 forests for the HG--NY currently has 6 in its BFC.

So, do we want to go for the HG? We only get the population benefit--7, or perhaps 8--if we build it ourselves, so capturing it will be of much less use. Alternative or additional Wonders would be the Great Lighthouse and Colossus, both quite valuable. Obviously they have to be built in coastal cities and if we defoliate NY now we probably can't use it later. Boston and Atlanta might do. Metal Casting is quite a ways off so ignore the Colossus for now. GLH? 60 hammers for a lighthouse and then 200 (without any resource bonus) for GLH. That's a smaller hammer investment than the HG, but if we fail the gold:hammer ratio is poor, we don't have Sailing yet, and at least some AI do. In contrast, we have Math but there's no evidence the AI do yet.

Extra population helps in many ways, particularly for whipping an army. We don't get the population benefit from capturing the HG. We probably have a decent head start on it compared to the AI, while we're probably running behind the AI on the GLH. HG has a good failure gold ratio compared to GLH. If we're going to go for any Wonder in the near term, HG is probably the one. My vote is to go for it ASAP. Do you think it's worth it?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I need to test, but my thought was that the New York settler will be built next turn, and the Boston one will be chopped in just a few turns, so they might both be moving at the same time. On reflection, that seems unlikely.

My current thought is that we should only revolt to representation, and not slavery, since once we have representation we'll want to run as many specialists as possible. Why pay 2-4 gpt for slavery if we're only going to whip a few things?

 

[Yamps]

I'd advise making some tests with and without slavery. Without slavery you'll have to build more workers and chop more forests for the same effect. Workers are also spent resources, especially when they run out of useful things to do. Also, it will take more time to build infrastructure, no 2 hammer for 1 food mechanism. We are going to whip an army to invade, so it's just a matter of timing. Hah, I'm really surprised with so much scepticism against , it's arguably the best civic of them all.

Marble gifting won't be fast enough to get us to Pleased. To get that, we should settle some crappy city. It is an interesting idea though to get the selected AI to build us a wonder.

----

xpost

Let's get HG more or less asap, it's basically a free wonder when you whip all the extra pop.

Attacking with slavery is much faster and speed is everything.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

ToA was BIAFAL on T76. Clever about trading marble but I would not gift the stone because we need it for the Hanging Gardens. Speaking of which, if we think we have a shot at it--and it would be very nice for the extra population, not to mention the health and GPPs--then NY should go straight to an aqueduct and the HG after finishing its settler next turn, not stopping for a library or worker. I'd even chop a forest or two for the aqueduct because that requires more base hammers (200) than the HG (175 with stone) and we'll only need 4 or 5 forests for the HG--NY currently has 6 in its BFC.

There are only four workers, and they're already overworked. Where am I going to get the workers to chop 6 forests for New York?

 

[Yamps]

There are only four workers, and they're already overworked. Where am I going to get the workers to chop 6 forests for New York?

Yup, we do need more workers. But less with slavery. Also consider the mines you'd have to build to get production started. They'd be used only for a brief period, we'd hire scientists instead. With slavery, you can build those mines somewhat later.

 

[Xcalibrator]

There are only four workers, and they're already overworked. Where am I going to get the workers to chop 6 forests for New York?

"T' engines are givin' all they can! I canna' break the laws of physics!" One worker would be a good start and will have time to chop ~2 forests before the aqueduct is done. Chop another for the HG and by then you can probably spare another worker to help speed up a 4th and possibly 5th chop. Just do what's possible.

Tests with and without slavery would be nice, but they take time and effort and I won't be able to help until Oct 13--tons of deadlines at work until then. My vote goes with Chris and kcd--too early for slavery. Too many good tiles still to work; whipping now will hurt our research rate. I think the PPP is pretty near done.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I've updated the test game save file. It's much closer to reality. Known differences are:

1. AI not in correct locations. New AI not correctly assigned.
2. Research -1 beaker.
3. Washington -1 hammer.
4. Atlanta -2 food.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

The civic switch decision happens after my turnset. Here's what I propose. Here is the 525 BC test game save file showing what it will look like at the end of my turn set. This represents the 12 turns it will take to build a granary and library in Washington. We can defer the civic decision to Jovan's turnset.

Highlights of this plan:

• Hanging Gardens 50% complete. We should have the 8th city settled before we complete the HG.
• Washington population 9, all cottages worked.
• Chicago (silver) and Seattle (crab/clam) settled, settler for copper built.
• Seattle monument complete.
• 259 gold in bank.
• 6 workers (still not enough for 7-8 cities!).
• 3 more libraries under construction.

The plan:

Sign open borders with Witches of the North

Research: 0% until Washington library completed (i.e. entire turn set) unless trade routes possible

Research: Sailing

Washington: granary (chop) -> library (chop)

New York: finish settler -> aqueduct -> Hanging Gardens

Boston: finish settler (chop) -> worker (chop) -> settler (chop) -> library

Philadelphia finish archer -> worker -> library

Atlanta finish workboat -> library (chop)

New cities: Chicago (1S silver), Seattle (clam/crab), 1SW copper

Chicago: monument (chop)

Seattle: monument (chop) -> workboat

Worker 1: pasture Atlanta pigs -> chop -> chop

Worker 2: chops for Boston

Worker 3: finish irrigating rice -> chops for New York

Worker 4: chops for Washington -> chop for Seattle

Worker 5 (Philadelphia): chop for Chicago

Worker 6 (Boston): chops for New York

Archers 1 and 2: explore

Archer 3 (Philadelphia): move south to defend Boston/copper

Warrior 1: move to Washington for happiness garrison after Chicago founded (gets there on the exact turn needed)

Warrior 4: move south to fog bust spoke (Boston border pop will fog bust Boston/Atlanta ocean)

Stop on turn 94, 525 BC when Washington completes library

 

[Xcalibrator]

Sounds good to me.

I'm too lazy to check your trial save (and can't at work, anyway), but will the new cities have roads/trade route connections? Atlanta does not, currently, right? If we reach a point where 2 cities are without, that might be an additional reason to finish off Sailing. Hmm, how would one quantify that? Say a library in Wash will give us around 5 extra bpt @100% research. So if we spend 2 turns finishing off Sailing before finishing the library we'll be wasting 10 potential beakers. Compare that against the number of commerce lost by not having Sailing. If we have on average at least 1 city not connected throughout your 12-turn turnset that'll cost us about as much or more than turning research to 100% before completing the library. (Washington may develop enough to be worth 2 cpt, so that would make Sailing more valuable.) You know when/if each city will be hooked up, Chris, so use your judgment on whether/when to finish Sailing.

 

[Yamps]

Well, I've opened the save, what to say...

'this would go against everything we stand for!'

So, the city of Washington has been busy working unimproved plains hill and grass forest. Atlanta grass forest and unimproved silk. Chicago has no tiles improved at size 2.

To play without slavery, we'd need about ~2 workers per city, not less then 1. (I'd use the 2 worker per city play in early Oracle -> CoL -> Caste game, not here.)

It doesn't matter much if you use slavery or not when you build workers or settlers because food goes to hammers. However, to build infrastructure without many workers slavery is a must have civic. Take a look at the surplus food. That's times 2 in hammers we are not utilizing! It's simply wrong to waste that food to grow onto unimproved tiles. Not to sound rude or anything, but this is the first advice that Noble players get: don't work unimproved tiles.

Libraries in most cities are too slow to matter for HR->Construction. What matters is capital cottaging. Btw, if you whip elsewhere you'll have more workers to cottage the capital. That's where practically all of our research should come from.

Chris, it seems that you're the only player active with tests right now so a lot comes down to your judgment. The September deadlines are killing me so I can't contribute much more; I urge you to make some whipping tests to compare with your current plan. And I have to say great work so far in your efforts, I think your test maps will prove very important for our final placing!

 

[ChrisShaffer]

So, the city of Washington has been busy working unimproved plains hill and grass forest.

Actually, those are the scientists. If we whip in Washington, how will we have both scientists and cottages? I'll admit I played this test a bit sloppy - it was to show what is possible.

I'll try another test with an immediate revolt to slavery and see what I can come up with.

Jovan is the one who suggested we don't need slavery... and he's not a Noble player.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Xpost with Chris:

I trust Chris's judgment on this, and shouldn't really comment without looking at the trial save myself, but... Washington at T82 (current) has 2 more cottages it can work, and if it grows beyond those it can work the lake tile(s) until the library is done, at which point we need to have "excess" population to run as scientists. NY will take awhile to grow into the rice, and those unimproved tiles (forests) are necessary for hammers to get the aqueduct and HG. True, whipping might be faster for this city. Boston is working 2 unimproved (3point) tiles, but it's concentrating on settlers and workers so it won't grow any more, and it'll be able to work its seafood next turn (er, we do have a workboat ready, don't we?). Chicago can work its lake tile(s) until the silver is mined and seafood netted. Atlanta will have its seafood and pigs. There isn't really much waste, especially once the libraries come in--we'll need warm bodies for specialists. Once they're up and running we'll have a much smaller food excess so growth will be slower--that's the time to build granaries, in preparation for whipping. (I think.)

 

[Yamps]

Actually, those are the scientists. If we whip in Washington, how will we have both scientists and cottages? I'll admit I played this test a bit sloppy - it was to show what is possible.

Everything's better than working unimproved tiles. The plan was to chop more in Washington to save pop, but it's okay to whip there as well if workers can't keep up.

Jovan is the one who suggested we don't need slavery... and he's not a Noble player.

Sure, but the devil is, as always, in details. This play would require much more workers. We'd need a test with about ~2 workers per city to compare with the whipping option. And I don't see us in a better spot in that case, not to repeat all the arguments again.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Actually, a brief test has shown that Yamps is right. If we're going to revolt, we might as well do it now, and use some targeted whipping. I was able to get the Granary and Library in Washington 7 turns faster, and Seattle (clam/crab) going 6 turns faster, with a monument 2 turns faster (net 8 turns faster). Chicago and Atlanta will both be able to use the whip for crucial infrastructure too. I'm convinced. The research gains from a faster library in Washington alone justify it. Now to make a better plan.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Hmm, nothing like actually doing it and seeing what happens. But keep in mind the longer goal--building an army of cats and elephants ASAP. Faster granaries, libraries, etc. may help in some cases, but not all. Don't whip away bonus tiles unless you get them right back. I assume whipping in NY will help with the aqueduct, too--keep in mind the Wonder-whipping penalty for the Hanging Gardens, and try to maximize the aqueduct overflow if convenient. As usual, try to whip during settler/worker builds to shorten the no-growth periods, blah, blah... And don't overdo on workers. Remember, Duckweed says they're overrated--he thinks even 1.5 per city is usually overkill.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Go easy on Washington. At some point--I don't know when--its trade routes will become worth 2 cpt to our other cities instead of 1, which is another ~7cpt. Whipping away citizens/cottages will delay that and I don't think the 25% library bonus--which only applies to beakers, not commerce, so it's only ~2/3 of the time--will make up for that. Hopefully, some other team members will comment before you play. I'm really not sure whipping is a good idea yet. Use sparingly.

Edit: Of course, if we get foreign trade routes going, Washington's trade route becomes less important.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

The plan is for one 2 pop whip in each of Washington, Boston, Atlanta and Chicago. No need to whip in New York, plenty of great tiles to work there. Also still formulating a plan. Definitely don't have a kcd_swede green light yet. Won't be playing today for sure.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Here's a test to 525BC (same as other test) with slavery.

Highlights

Lots of granaries and two barracks, ready to whip an army. Washington library up quickly. Culture bridge in 6 turns. Hanging Gardens in 3 turns with chops. Sailing faster gives better trade routes.

Problem

Economy crashed. Bottleneck will be construction + horseback riding.

Questions

Maybe less granaries? Seems if you're going to whip an army, they're awfully useful. In this scenario, seems to me it's better to whip granaries then army or libraries after. But maybe some libraries would let us run scientists. The problem is, I whipped away anyone who was remotely non-productive, so there aren't a lot of citizens to turn into scientists.

Any other comments?

The Plan

Sign open borders with Witches of the North

Revolt to representation + slavery on second turn, after New York settler built.

Research: Sailing binary, then 0%, then 100% construction

Washington: granary (2 pop whip) -> library (chop) -> barracks

New York: finish settler -> aqueduct (chops) -> Hanging Gardens (chops)

Boston: finish settler (2pop whip) -> granary -> settler (2pop whip soon)

Philadelphia finish archer -> worker -> granary (2pop whip)

Atlanta finish workboat -> granary (chop & 1pop whip) -> barracks (chop)

New cities: Chicago (1S silver), Seattle (clam/crab)

Chicago: monument (chop)

Seattle: monument (chop) -> workboat

Worker 1: pasture Atlanta pigs -> chops

Worker 2: chop for Washington -> chop for Seattle

Worker 3: finish irrigating rice -> chop for New York

Worker 4: chop for Washington -> chop for New York

Worker 5 (Philadelphia): pasture Chicago pigs

Worker 6 (Boston): chops for New York

Archers 1 and 2: explore

Archer 3 (Philadelphia): move south to defend Boston/copper

Warrior 1: move to Washington for happiness garrison after Chicago founded (gets there on the exact turn needed)

Warrior 3: move south to fog bust after workboat arrives

Warrior 4: move south to fog bust spoke after Boston border pop

 

[Xcalibrator]

Good job on testing various options. But a crashing economy with not enough citizens to become scientists and take up the slack is bad. I like your original plan better.

 

[Yamps]

Okay, we need to rework everything. Some comments and ideas:

• Maintenance is a big problem with many cities. Note btw that slavery helps to reduce it.
  
• Silver city isn't really helping us to prepare the attack, let's skip it.
  
• We don't need copper. Phants and archers will defend okay in cities and in the field the AI isn't likely to attack our cataphant stacks with spears.
  
• HG is a luxury, it doesn't help with research.
  
• Let's try granary -> library in Boston and NY as well.
  
• It's only 2 turns for a great person in the proposed test, let's keep the slider at 0% till then. (maybe Sailing only)
  
• No need to build barracks too soon, lighthouses would be better if we are late with research.

@xcal

Libraries are not built in the first plan either, we have to do better.

EDIT:

Note that we don't need axes on attack either, they'd have to fight archers and not spears.