SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[Htadus]

Airship, to overfly the various redoubts and see if we can find Oz. They can be stationed in ai cities with which we have Open Borders, so we should be able to recon much of what we cannot see now, including troop dispositions.

That would be my guess.

Right on Captain. with

BTW there are several spots along the hub where oncity and 2 forts will get a navy from north to south. We may need to build one of them.

Off to take care of dad duties and likely be back.....if I don't fall a sleep too... that is.

 

[Htadus]

Sorry for the disappearance. RL stuff.

OK have the file open and will write a plan and update soon.

 

[leif erikson]

Don't feel too badly. I have relatives visiting from Holland and haven't been here enough lately. Looking forward to your plan.

 

[Htadus]

SIT-REP

War is stable. We can go take the Barb City.
Trade Music and gold to Monti and Gandhi for Compass now.
CS in 8 in the worst case at 20% or trade after a turn or so to Musa and shaka for best possible trade.
During GA adopt Tao and Civic switch to Buro, casts and pasi and hopefully go into PS and slavary at the end of GA or eventually. This will be discussed since it may be completed by someone else.

Some cities are ready for a GA. When to start GA? After CS if it is within few turns or now? After CS regardless of when? Please comment.

Cities:
NK: Will go on production right now. So with 21HPT, and after the spy, will build Phant, cat, cat and sword (10T). No whips; then it will try to sqeeze out a GM/GE. No whips.

Washington: Has more hammer potential than Philly and will be able to gt two more food from Phill later. HE here. Then Units. No whips.

Philly: No GP polution. Use all the food and needed hammers to grow complete the LH next then grow/fill food bin until GA. Then run 7-11 scientists. First GS without any deaths. TheSlow build Lib. No whips. Another GS with deaths.

Boston Polluted with Engineer. So build units W/O enginner untill GA, then run 5 scientists with the plan to get a GS very late in the GA or after. No whips.

NY: I will build naval units here and will not whip any of the 7 production tiles. After 3rd gally will start a rax.

Atlanta: No GP polution. Second GS from here. After LH will start a Lib. Another GS with deaths.

Chicago: I will whip a LH first chance and start Forge. Rax and units to follow.

Seattle I had great hopes for this city during the GA but it is not anywhere its potential. May be get a GS out of after I run numbers. Else it will stay with units after the rax.

San Fran No changes untill GA. then use artist to expand border. After Forge build a rax and a stable if the opportunity is there. Else units. No chance for whips . This city is well stocked I am happy to say.

Settlers: It is not time for greatwall city. We can not execute a war in 10 turns and protect a city in the open. What were the new city plans again? Any thoughts on a production city south of the oasis in Doraland proper?

Workers: Pastures, farms and mines and a few roads....maybe.

Spy will go on his first marthon to india.

Keep eye out for trades and stop.

What did I miss? I need to run numbers to see how to get the GP's. Wow 500/600/700/800/900/1000 points each for six GP's. Ok where is that calculator.

 

[Mad Professor]

SIT-REP
Some cities are ready for a GA. When to start GA? After CS if it is within few turns or now? After CS regardless of when? Please comment.

The 50% bureacracy bonus is on base gold and hammers, and GA's do affect base gold and hammers so it will make a material difference. I would prefer we start the GA before switching to Bur so we don't get the turns of anarchy but it also makes sense to be able to switch to Bur straight away in the GA. Sounds to me like we get CS, do the GA, then all the revolts in fairly quick succession.

 

[Htadus]

The GS numbers are not good. We just do not have adaquate population in food high cities. Most of the GP cities will start with 0 gpp. The needed specialist to get 100+ gpp per turn is 9 for maximum multiplier without Parthanon and could get 1st GP on T5 of the GA and typically 1 GP for each of the turns to up to 5 GP's. But we will only have a 8 turn GA thus 3 GP's. I think we might be able to get 4 at best and 3 for sure. But we can continue this after the GA. Efficiently with Pacifism or slower without. I am not for staying in Paci for too long with our offensive war looming.

So, The first GP will come from the capital. Two more clean GS's from GP cities and perhaps another.

Techs:
After CS, we need to tech Paper. The specialists and the GA will do this very fast. Next bulb Education with 1 or 2 GS's. Part bulb Lib w/GS and Bulb Machinary. Then we can decide what need to be done.

The 50% bureacracy bonus is on base gold and hammers, and GA's do affect base gold and hammers so it will make a material difference. I would prefer we start the GA before switching to Bur so we don't get the turns of anarchy but it also makes sense to be able to switch to Bur straight away in the GA. Sounds to me like we get CS, do the GA, then all the revolts in fairly quick succession.

I concur. That is my intention too. The buro issue is related to the 5 turn wait we have for 2nd civic change. I would like to revolt after learning CS for the same reasons.

 

[-Asterix-]

As NK has GLib, I would try to generate a GSci there instead of GM. GM would be best generated in either Atlanta or Philly as the second GP. Two GPs from each of them sounds good, would do first 2 x GSci and then GSci + GM. One 8-turn GA won't suffice so need to do last GPs after it (won't be much of a problem with phi + paci). Thus, need to stay in caste + paci a little longer and switch to slavery + theo the hard way later. Repre + vassalage are more adjustable so we can do them on the last turn of GA if we want (if it seems so, repre should be left on to tech faster with caste).

Maybe we could even consider building Taj somewhere for another GA for switching military civics on?

Where's that NE? I'd still build it in NK at some point, rather sooner than later.

With repre + caste we will be able to tech nicely, so I'd bulb only one GSci to Edu and tech it normally after that, saving the further GSci for Astro + other stuff.

I think we have an extra settler to go for that seafood site south of NK + Wash.

Regarding San Fr: I would use artist if we start a GA right away, otherwise I'd do as CP suggested and build culture to pop.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I will try to comment on Htadus's plan late tonight, but wanted to share my World Builder fortress testing -- see save below.

Looks to me that it will be detectable if some of the tiles inside a fortress are not mountains, and I don't see any on the map now.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305374&stc=1&d=1319833200

 

[leif erikson]

Just for fun, I took CP's fortress test save and added a 5 by 5 mountain range with a single grass tile in the middle. Haven't checked to see if any of the in-game fortresses are that large, but ... just sayin'.

Will try to get to Htadus plan this evening or tomorrow. Relatives departed this evening.

 

[Htadus]

As NK has GLib, I would try to generate a GSci there instead of GM. GM would be best generated in either Atlanta or Philly as the second GP.I agree. My revision was not clear. The intention was to try for a GS there as our first GP during GA Two GPs from each of them sounds good, would do first 2 x GSci and then GSci + GM. One 8-turn GA won't suffice so need to do last GPs after it (won't be much of a problem with phi + paci). Thus, need to stay in caste + paci a little longer and switch to slavery + theo Now I did forget we can do theo the hard way later. Repre + vassalage are more adjustable so we can do them on the last turn of GA if we want (if it seems so, repre should be left on to tech faster with caste).

Maybe we could even consider building Taj somewhere for another GA for switching military civics on? I though of this but not convinced that it is a good way to spend hammers right now.

Where's that NE? I'd still build it in NK at some point, rather sooner than later.I can not see it happening during this set

With repre + caste we will be able to tech nicely, so I'd bulb only one GSci to Edu and tech it normally after that, saving the further GSci for Astro + other stuff.I am with you here

I think we have an extra settler to go for that seafood site south of NK + Wash.Do we really want it this late?

Regarding San Fr: I would use artist if we start a GA right away, otherwise I'd do as CP suggested and build culture to pop.

I misunderstood CP. The only reason to speed its expansion is to use all the workers there to improve the copper and cows since it has plenty of food untill it get to size 3. I will build culture in this city.

@ CP and Leif,

I am not sure I understand the test saves. Are you deducing the walls are all fakes?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Just for fun, I took CP's fortress test save and added a 5 by 5 mountain range with a single grass tile in the middle. Haven't checked to see if any of the in-game fortresses are that large, but ... just sayin'.

A tile that has two rows of mountains on every side cannot be determined to be non-mountainous, but need to do more testing to see if absence of corner mountain on outer ring is critical, as in near fortress. Question remains as to whether center tile in near fortress is mountainous. The wkbt in Coventry may need to get to the NW corner of the near fortress, but more testing first.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Another GS with deaths." Please explain.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Tested leif's fortress without corner mountains -- looks like can deduce non-mountainous tile in center from slopes of mountains. Think we do need to send Coventry workboat. See save:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=305414&stc=1&d=1319863900

Don't like either of the proposed city sites on our spoke. Think we should save the settler for either a fortress city -- if we discover a non-mountainous tile in the center of one of the two remaining possibilities (and we should know about one of them soon) -- or a canal city when the need arises.

What about NE in Atlanta after LTHS and Lib?

 

[Htadus]

"Another GS with deaths." Please explain.

Basicallt running scientists with deficit food. Say a 10 pop city. Run 10 scientists first turn. 10 next turn. Typically if the bin did not have 20 food stored, then every turn the specialists will drop 1 each turn. Assuming a loss of pop each turn, in 10 turns city will stop declining. In the process get 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 turns of GPP. This is the extream example.

So for the first GS I do not intend to starve, but eventually the city will go through starvation to get the 2nd scientist. Only SP games I do this is if I messed up and Lib race is going bad and I need a few GS's to win the race and also during a culture games.

Also I am good with not settling any cities right now.

Capital is better for NE since it also get other GPP from wonders that will get the multi[lication.

 

[-Asterix-]

Basicallt running scientists with deficit food. Say a 10 pop city. Run 10 scientists first turn. 10 next turn. Typically if the bin did not have 20 food stored, then every turn the specialists will drop 1 each turn. Assuming a loss of pop each turn, in 10 turns city will stop declining. In the process get 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 turns of GPP. This is the extream example.

Again, I think this is a bit situational. Another option is to work good food tiles (resources) and put rest of the pops as scientists to push the beginning of starving by some turns. With your example this could net something like 8+8+8+8+8+7+6+5+ etc. But it really depends on how much food there are in the bin. Also, when you do this in multiple cities at once, you want to control the order in which cities pop GPs.

It's not really too hard to accomplish but requires some math to figure out the numbers. I've done this kind of thing only once or twice in my games but as I've been playing like 1-2 games/month it's an ok percentage already.

 

[The-Hawk]

If CP's test models the real game, it would appear instead of flying monkeys, we will need to deal with flying elephants!





Once we get paper, we should be able to resolve the Nobamba fortress. Surely Shaka has sent a WB around it by now.

I must admit, I am having a little trouble seeing how we will be able to draw a conclusion on the original fortress near us. CP, are you saying a WB exploring NW of the fortress will give us sufficient visibility to deduce the center? I'm not sure...

On the other hand, if we can eliminate Nobamba and if someone gets a caravel out to the remaining ocean FOW, I suppose process of elimination will resolve the fortress near us. Hopefully the AI's will take care of this so we don't need to build a caravel.

What tech are we taking from Liberalism?

 

[Htadus]

Again, I think this is a bit situational. You are right, it is the case with all games. Another option is to work good food tiles (resources) and put rest of the pops as scientists to push the beginning of starving by some turns. With your example this could net something like 8+8+8+8+8+7+6+5+ etc.True But it really depends on how much food there are in the bin. TrueAlso, when you do this in multiple cities at once, you want to control the order in which cities pop GPs.Again true. but my example was in regards to the essens of deficit food GP farming (even more effective during GA). Essens is this. Once it goes into loosing pop, it is silly to work any food tiles because you can only loose 1 pop per turn. If the city have 10 pop and going to lose a pop with the use of specialists, then if the goal is to get a GPerson, then you should run all the pop as specialists to gain the most benefits.

For example: Run 2 specialist and get the science/commers/hammers and GPP and lose 1 pop is much weaker than runing 10 specialist to get the benefits and still lose the pop in the city. The whole thing is about getting things done by a critical time frame.

It's not really too hard to accomplish but requires some math to figure out the numbers. I've done this kind of thing only once or twice in my games but as I've been playing like 1-2 games/month it's an ok percentage already.

The math is not hard but the resources (pop) are not available to extract most out of the pop we got during GA. That is why I adjusted the GP births down to 3 from 5 during GA and the immidiate few turns afterwards. Please feel to do a GP birth plan.

If CP's test models the real game, it would appear instead of flying monkeys, we will need to deal with flying elephants!
Funny.
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..............................

On the other hand, if we can eliminate Nobamba and if someone gets a caravel out to the remaining ocean FOW, I suppose process of elimination will resolve the fortress near us. Hopefully the AI's will take care of this so we don't need to build a caravel.That would be nice and likely become a reality

What tech are we taking from Liberalism?

The hope is for MT. May not happen during my set, but I have hope.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I must admit, I am having a little trouble seeing how we will be able to draw a conclusion on the original fortress near us. CP, are you saying a WB exploring NW of the fortress will give us sufficient visibility to deduce the center? I'm not sure..." Can't say that I'm certain, but when I look at my test #2, it's pretty obvious that the central tile is not a mountain because the surrounding mountains are inwardly sloping downward, which they don't do if the central tile is a mountain. Think that, by de-fogging the NW inner corner mountain tile, we will be able to judge inner its slope. In any event, we will then be able to compare what we see with a test of such a fortress with similar tiles de-fogged and with and without a mountain in the center. Be delighted if you would have a go at testing this.

 

[leif erikson]

"I must admit, I am having a little trouble seeing how we will be able to draw a conclusion on the original fortress near us. CP, are you saying a WB exploring NW of the fortress will give us sufficient visibility to deduce the center? I'm not sure..." Can't say that I'm certain, but when I look at my test #2, it's pretty obvious that the central tile is not a mountain because the surrounding mountains are inwardly sloping downward, which they don't do if the central tile is a mountain. Think that, by de-fogging the NW inner corner mountain tile, we will be able to judge inner its slope. In any event, we will then be able to compare what we see with a test of such a fortress with similar tiles de-fogged and with and without a mountain in the center. Be delighted if you would have a go at testing this.

I've set up a test with two identical fortresses, one with a hollow center and one that is solid, that look just like the one in SG14 near the base of our spoke. Just move the work boat and see if you can tell which one has the empty tile/s in the middle?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Nicely done, leif. Would seem that a determination can be made once we've de-fogged. If there's a non-mountainous inner tile, then the settler should probably be used to culture-breach the fortress as discussed earlier.