SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[The-Hawk]

We are currently running 17 merchants providing +13 gpt at 0% research. If we switch to slavery and move all of these citizens to 2 commerce gold tiles, we will be at -4 gpt. However, we will also have 6 cities that will grow in population within 3 turns, so we will pretty quickly get into the black. Of course, civics and city maintenance will also grow and will get worse (especially maintenance) as we capture more cities. And building units will also push us red.

My current thinking:

• Dom remains our most likely victory condition. Conquest will be very painful without vassals.
• I don't think we will get there with Curaissiers. Lead AIs are only 3 techs from rifles. As CP said, Curs and Trebs against Rifles will be a very ugly proposition.
• Chem seems the way to go, followed by MS for Grens and Steel for Cannons. In the mean time, we utilize Curaissiers to maul Asoka and Rags.
• If we go for dom, we will be keeping cities. This will create massive maintenance headaches unless we can whip courthouses as we go. In fact, some of our existing cities could justify a courthouse now and will also get worse as our city count grows.
• We will need to go for slavery in the not-to-distant future. But I think if we switch now, our research will screech to a halt.
• I think the answer is to continue to run merchants and representation. Goal is to get a GM or two and run trade missions for gold influx. If we get ahead on gold via trade missions and captured cities, we can turn up the research slider.
• At some point, we will need to revolt to slavery and PS and begin whipping CH's. Timing of this will depend on how much gold we've accumulated and how bad maintenance is getting. Would be nice if we've completed Chem, MS, Steel before we need to abandon caste.

 

[The-Hawk]

One other minor nit... I noticed NY has just finished a workshop. Need to mm to move the citizen from the desert mine to this tile.

 

[leif erikson]

My current thinking:

• Dom remains our most likely victory condition. Conquest will be very painful without vassals.
• I don't think we will get there with Curaissiers. Lead AIs are only 3 techs from rifles. As CP said, Curs and Trebs against Rifles will be a very ugly proposition.
• Chem seems the way to go, followed by MS for Grens and Steel for Cannons. In the mean time, we utilize Curaissiers to maul Asoka and Rags.
• If we go for dom, we will be keeping cities. This will create massive maintenance headaches unless we can whip courthouses as we go. In fact, some of our existing cities could justify a courthouse now and will also get worse as our city count grows.
• We will need to go for slavery in the not-to-distant future. But I think if we switch now, our research will screech to a halt.
• I think the answer is to continue to run merchants and representation. Goal is to get a GM or two and run trade missions for gold influx. If we get ahead on gold via trade missions and captured cities, we can turn up the research slider.
• At some point, we will need to revolt to slavery and PS and begin whipping CH's. Timing of this will depend on how much gold we've accumulated and how bad maintenance is getting. Would be nice if we've completed Chem, MS, Steel before we need to abandon caste.

I agree with most of your thinking. A couple of points:

If we want to slow research of the AI, it would seem logical to go after a partner of one of the faster teching pairs after Asoka, either south or west. Not sure which would be best. The other pair we can maintain trade and be able to send any Great Merchants that are born. We could clean up the slow techers with slow units from the Asoka campaign (Viks, English or Mongols)?

We could use the current Great Scientist to bulb Scientific Method as a way to Communism and State Property. With enough Courthouses, we also have the possibility of building Forbidden Palace.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I noticed NY has just finished a workshop." So did I.

I agree with most of your thinking. A couple of points:

If we want to slow research of the AI, it would seem logical to go after a partner of one of the faster teching pairs after Asoka, either south or west. Not sure which would be best. The other pair we can maintain trade and be able to send any Great Merchants that are born. We could clean up the slow techers with slow units from the Asoka campaign (Viks, English or Mongols)? I'll look at this once I have a feel for how tough or easy a go it's going to be against Asoka, but the logistics seem daunting on initial consideration.

We could use the current Great Scientist to bulb Scientific Method as a way to Communism and State Property. With enough Courthouses, we also have the possibility of building Forbidden Palace.

Not sure this is way to go (as it would greatly slow researching to Chem and MS), but certainly don't want to bulb SM and commit to it until it's clear we can complete it and get to Communism in a timely manner. When we have another GP, we can revisit with knowledge of what variety we get and how our treasury is holding up.

After reading comments above, plan is to keep Representation and Caste for now. Question of switching from Pacifism to Theo remains open. Wondering if we should wait for the NE to get built and considerable progress made toward one more great person before switching.

BTW, exactly what constitutes a super medic? Never used one.

 

[leif erikson]

BTW, exactly what constitutes a super medic? Never used one.

If you put all 20 points from a Great general into a unit, it can promote to CBT1, Medic1, Medic2, Medic3 and one more promo (march?)
Medic3 provides for an extra +15% healing in the same or adjacent tiles (with a +10% for Medic 1 and another +10% for Medic 2) and March allows the Supermedic to heal while moving. It can restore an Army's health quickly to keep the attack momentum going.

 

[Htadus]

If you put all 20 points from a Great general into a unit, it can promote to CBT1, Medic1, Medic2, Medic3 and one more promo (march?)
Medic3 provides for an extra +15% healing in the same or adjacent tiles (with a +10% for Medic 1 and another +10% for Medic 2) and March allows the Supermedic to heal while moving. It can restore an Army's health quickly to keep the attack momentum going.

That is correct. However, March only benefit the individual unit thusly promoted. So if you are refering to the ability of a supermedic healing itself then it is true. I rarely use my medic for combat unless clean up work. It almost appear (never documented it myself) that a supermedic can heal unit by 25% of the units own strength level. IE, an infantry units heals it self by 5 health points each turn being healed regardless of the location.

BTW, I think we should think being more aggresive than we are currently planning. Sort of three front agressive. Sort of slavery/PS aggressive. Once again I do not think we need technology beyond Astro to complete this game now that we are quite certain the Oz is a Galleon away from doom. Treb with CR3 has very little respect for a rifle.

 

[leif erikson]

BTW, I think we should think being more aggresive than we are currently planning. Sort of three front agressive. Sort of slavery/PS aggressive. Once again I do not think we need technology beyond Astro to complete this game now that we are quite certain the Oz is a Galleon away from doom. Treb with CR3 has very little respect for a rifle.

What are your thoughts of the economic consequences of going all out? Do you think city capture gold will be sufficient?

 

[Htadus]

What are your thoughts of the economic consequences of going all out? Do you think city capture gold will be sufficient?

Yes and pillaging if needed. We can raze cities if they are new and has nothing worthy to keep for. Whip CH and units from there. Work coast if need be.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Treb with CR3 has very little respect for a rifle." Only if the rifle is defending in a city with reduced culture. Problems will be in getting to that state. Do agree that we need to push aggression. Question whether we have the production base yet, even with whipping and PS. Look at the numbers thrown at SF.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If you put all 20 points from a Great general into a unit, it can promote to CBT1, Medic1, Medic2, Medic3 and one more promo (march?)
Medic3 provides for an extra +15% healing in the same or adjacent tiles (with a +10% for Medic 1 and another +10% for Medic 2) and March allows the Supermedic to heal while moving. It can restore an Army's health quickly to keep the attack momentum going.

As I understand this, the March promo is not essential. If that is true, then couldn't we create 2 supermedics by dividing the 20 points between two units that already have 5 experience points (but have not yet used their promotions)?

"Yes and pillaging if needed. We can raze cities if they are new and has nothing worthy to keep for. Whip CH and units from there. Work coast if need be." Would agree with this if I were confident we could successfully run multiple fronts at once right now, but that seems problematic. Like to first turn out some more units and capture additional good hammer cities.

Thoughts on cost effectivenss of building a bank or two, and where?

Would like to begin playing in about 26 hours. Biggest unresolved question seems to be Pacifism vs.Theo.

 

[The-Hawk]

Your logic on medics makes sense, although better for someone who knows the mechanics of promotions better than me to comment.

RE: pacifism vs. theo. I would be inclined to stay in pacifism. Avoids anarchy and speeds our research. As long as we are running specialists and repre, I would take the extra 10%.

RE: 3rd front, I agree. Let's chew on Asoka a bit and disembowl his core. Once you feel that front is under control, I would go after Rags as the third front (no reason to bring two more AIs into war with us). We can launch a new attack at Rags core from Asoka's captured territory. At the same time, we can continue to work back in Asoka's spoke towards SF.

The third front might come pretty quickly given the large army ready to engage Asoka. To Htadus' point, we need to maintain our aggressiveness.

 

[leif erikson]

As I understand this, the March promo is not essential. If that is true, then couldn't we create 2 supermedics by dividing the 20 points between two units that already have 5 experience points (but have not yet used their promotions)?

Tested your excellent idea, but alas, no go. Save to try it is below.

In order to achieve medic three, the unit must be led by a Great General. Without the Great General, the unit can only achieve Medic2.

edit - On Banks; Not Kansas (adds +19 gold), New York (adds +12 Gold), Atlanta (adds +10 Gold), and Seattle (adds +10 Gold) look like possibilities.
We are currently paying 67 gpt in city maintenance!

Agree with Hawk, let's stay in Pacifism for the time being.

 

[The-Hawk]

Leif, were you able to create a medic three GG and a second medic two unit (sorry, at work, can't open your test)? Still might be better than wasting all 20 points on one unit.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, the unit that had the GG attached achieved Medic3. The other unit got to medic2 and still had a promo available to it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the good work on testing supermedic. See every reason to still divide the GG between two units.

RE: pacifism vs. theo. I would be inclined to stay in pacifism. Avoids anarchy and speeds our research. As long as we are running specialists and repre, I would take the extra 10%. Okay, plan is to not change Civics right now.

RE: 3rd front, I agree. Let's chew on Asoka a bit and disembowl his core. Once you feel that front is under control, I would go after Rags as the third front (no reason to bring two more AIs into war with us). We can launch a new attack at Rags core from Asoka's captured territory. At the same time, we can continue to work back in Asoka's spoke towards SF. The third front might come pretty quickly given the large army ready to engage Asoka. To Htadus' point, we need to maintain our aggressiveness.

Unless I read something here compelling, that's the plan. Will post an interim save and open it up for discussion before declaring on someone else.

Seeking assent from all to play in 24 hours?

 

[leif erikson]

Seeking assent from all to play in 24 hours?

Go from here!

Good Luck and Happy Hunting.

 

[The-Hawk]

Good luck, kick butt!

 

[Htadus]

I have not had a chance to really look at the save. But the following has been discussed and here is my dime.

There is no easy bulb path toward Astro anymore. So let us start teching Astro right now, it should be our only priority.

Keep the current GS for anything or use as a ½ of a GA or build an academy in GP farm. They are all good.

I do not think we should be helping AI with tech trades. 10% science boost is something they do not need help with.

Markets are better than Banks. They also allow 2 merchants which we could use. CH too batter than banks. One or two select banks? Only reason for a bank is to build Wall street. We do not need it.

CP, let me add a couple of more options for the GG.

1. Gather 7 units with 5 exp points. Hopefully include a chariot. Need at least 2 units that can be promoted along the woodsman line. Recommend a combo of maces and Gunpowder. Assign the GG to the chariot. All but 1 will get 3 exp points. Give the Gunpowder units woodsman line all the way to Woodsman3. Now you got 2 non GG super healers and one leadership star Cuirassas and 3 CR3 maces and another unit 1 point from promo. Any melee and gunpowder unit can get Woody3 promo and they are non GG super medics.

2. The other option is also similar, but this time only use chaiot, 2 LB’s and a few galleys. Now they can stay with a couple of caravals for amphibious assaults. Mounted units can run while the trebs travel by boat.

Finally to the third Front.

I am not saying to start a third front with out units. Even I am not that rash. But those units need to be started now and whipped/drafted. In 10 turn time, the third front can be started the latest.

Options:

Go into a Nationalism and draft units for 10 turns. That is 30 units.
Go into slavery, 2 pop whip units every other turn for 6 turns in 6 cities. 3 x 6 units. Not as good as nationalism but still good. Nationalism would have been great if we could draft.

Here is the essens of a war game. 1 turn wasted in anarchy now will get us 10 back in 20 turns with capture gold and cities. No I did not do the math but it will work.

Anyways there are options, we just need to chose something. I would rather come in last place due to a risk gone wrong than coming in next to last because we took the safe route.

Got to go, will be back.

 

[leif erikson]

There is no easy bulb path toward Astro anymore. So let us start teching Astro right now, it should be our only priority.

Just so you know, we do have Astro now.

 

[Htadus]

Just so you know, we do have Astro now.

Phew. well, I guess I really did not get the full picture of the current state of the game. Ok, I need some sleep. That is the best news I could hear. Thank you for that leif.