SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Sleepless]

Not much to report though its a bit to peaceful to my mind. Had an AP vote so got everbody to declare on GK (well Hattie). Not long after that Hammie made peace with GK so isn't at war with anybody.

Now this turn Hammie has gone into WHEEOH. Although he is pleased with us I would beg 1 gold from him this turn then we can see where he sends his units and hopefully buy enough time if its us to bring re-inforcements from Kyoto. With Hattie and GK at war where safe from GK atm.

City Screen

Spoiler :

It looks like we need 14 artists 6 for Bombay and 8 for Kyoto. At current rates we need to get another 3-4000 culture in Bombay and I can't see anyway to do that so our best hope is a GA from Delhi.

Assigning another artist in Vijay will bring that down to turn 219 for the next GA then we can change that to mines/merchants which will help a bit. Ditto the other cities once they've produced there last artists.

Resource trades we can sell marble to Hammie for a bit of gold. I didn't sell techs to Hattie though lib for her 110 gold might get her into FR.

I wouldn't sell rep parts when we get it in a couple of turns to Hammie as we don't want to advance him anymore whilst he might be looking ti attack us.

 

[Ozbenno]

Looks like there is some money out there to trade/beg, could allow us to up the culture rate from 60%. do we dare delete some troops to do the same.

Otherwise, the march to victory continues.

 

[Sleepless]

The trouble is the slider doesn't help that much in Bombay/Kyoto. Every 10% we go up gives us about 6 per turn extra. At 100% slider Bombays culture goes up to about 468 per turn. Neglible for what we need.

Our best hope for the earliest finish I think is to get a an artist from Delhi.

Hammy I would just beg a tiny amount from him this turn. Liz might be a good try for more? Ditto HC/Mansa are likely to attack us so only want to beg a small amount from them and wait till nearer our finish date to stop a possible war declaration.

Edit: for the next turnset we need to add an extra artist in Kyoto. Think that was the mm mistake I made. Rest seems to be working out.. I hope

 

[adrianj]

You know, I think we can do it, with Delhi producing the 14th GPerson on T235.

T219: Vijay - steady as she goes. Speed up if you like, might help it run merchants sooner.
T226: Agra - same as Vijay.

T229: Varanasi - need to time it with some starvation so that it beats Kyoto, but doesn't beat Agra.

T234: Kyoto - We need to slowly dwindle away its food reserves, and then just after Varanasi pops (T230) Kyoto should assign entire population as artists.

T235: Delhi - Same as Kyoto, it should dwindle away its food, and then make sure it stays as close to Kyoto as possible without going in front of it. On the last turn (T235) assign entire population for a total of 17 artists. It gives 61 raw , which is 213 after modifiers. Providing it was VERY close behind Kyoto (ie, no less than 2987/3000 ) then it should pop. Whether or not it is an artist or not is a bit more up to chance.

If Delhi fails, all that means is Bombay needs to produce culture at its own speed, which means we win ~T239 instead of T236.

Question: How much does the 21st Great Person actually cost? The 20th costs 3000. Does the 21st cost 3200 or 3300? I have assumed 3200, but that could be wrong.

 

[Ozbenno]

From the War Academy...

For normal game speed, you need 100 GPPs in one of your cities to generate your first great person. From then on, every great person thereafter will cost you an additional 100 GPPs until 1000, then the threshold will be increased by 200 for every great person, making it even harder.

So you need 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, then 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, ... GPPs to generate a new great person.

I guess 3200 it is.

 

[adrianj]

Well yeah, but the War Academy presumably didn't think anyone would go beyond 20 great people.

The pattern is more like:

Cost(n+1) = Cost(n) + Increment(n).

That value of Increment is 100 for 1-10, and 200 for 11-20. Logically, it could be 300 for 21-30. Hence: Cost(21) = Cost(20) + 300 = 3300.

 

[adrianj]

I found this line in the SDK

GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).changeGreatPeopleThresholdModifier(GC.getDefineINT("GREAT_PEOPLE_THRESHOLD_INCREASE") * ((GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getGreatPeopleCreated() / 10) + 1));

Essentially, the increase is equal to

100 * ([GreatPeopleCreated / 10] + 1)

In our case, GreatPeopleCreated will be 20, so [20/10]+1 = 2+1 = 3.

What this means is that instead of Delhi producing a GPerson on T235 it could do so on T236. Unless we can speed Kyoto up by another turn...

 

[Grifftavian]

It is T214 now, and save says GA from Vijay in 6 turns, so I think we need to add an Artist and starve it a bit if we want to get the GA on T219.

If Pata were to start building Wealth now, we can stay at 60% culture with 0 Gold/turn income. Other we'll need to drop down to 40% Culture in one turn.

Alternatively, we could save some money by deleting our 3 Warriors and 4 Fast Workers. The Warrior are next to useless in a fight at this point, and would be expensive to upgrade. With most of our cities stagnant growth or temporarily starving, I don't think we need the FWs any more.

 

[Ozbenno]

It is T214 now, and save says GA from Vijay in 6 turns, so I think we need to add an Artist and starve it a bit if we want to get the GA on T219.

Doesn't affect later GAs if this one slips to T220, just means an extra turn with the artists instead of merchants, doesn't affect latyer GAs. The crucial one is getting Kyoto and Delhi on T234/236.

Alternatively, we could save some money by deleting our 3 Warriors and 4 Fast Workers. The Warrior are next to useless in a fight at this point, and would be expensive to upgrade. With most of our cities stagnant growth or temporarily starving, I don't think we need the FWs any more.

Don't think that workers count towards unit costs, can delete warriors easily enough I guess.

 

[Ozbenno]

Also, have been looking at other teams dates...

Kakkumeika and Plastic Ducks haven't submitted a save for a couple days and might be finished (pretty sure PD are at 1100AD). All other teams have, except XTeam who have said in the maintenance that they will struggle to finish on time.

Fifth Element are actually still going (now at 1830) so we should easily beat them. No other team appears to be going for culture other than us and them but apart from Plastic Ducks and OSS, no other team appears to have overwhelming power. Maple Sporks appear to have had a build up and lost a big chunk of their units.

Have a feeling we may be in line for 4th but who can tell, depends on who is close to finishing (but can't see anyone but FE, PD and OSS in this category from the graphs).

Also have a feeling that we may be in line for the spoon, which will extend McArine and my record in this department (currently at 5 ) but Kakkumeika might help us out here...

 

[adrianj]

I think that this scenario has proven to be particularly difficult for many teams. And if the discussion in the maintenance thread is anything to go by, there might be a few teams that either a) don't meet the deadline, or b) couldn't stay in Hindu for whatever reason.

Personally, I would be proud to win the Wooden Spoon. Score isn't even relevant, it's all about victory date. Though, as I've mentioned earlier, Kakumeika are looking likely to take it - we might get wooden spoon second place. A silver spoon?

I'm really looking forward to us finishing this so we can start reading . Perhaps I shouldn't get ahead of myself though

 

[Ozbenno]

I think that this scenario has proven to be particularly difficult for many teams. And if the discussion in the maintenance thread is anything to go by, there might be a few teams that either a) don't meet the deadline, or b) couldn't stay in Hindu for whatever reason.

Agreed. I think was a particularly well designed scenario that made it hard to deal with the AI (trading, diplo etc) as well as not having horses for a typical early winning rush.

I think we made the right choice to aim for culture. Obviously PD and OSS are the masters of war and went with their usual early rush tactics but I think the other teams have struggled pull of this type of victory.

I'm really looking forward to us finishing this so we can start reading .

Me too

Who's UP?? Think McArine said he could take it tonight??

 

[adrianj]

Some strategy analysis

If Delhi produces our 21st GPerson, then that is 29,800 worth of great people we have produced this game.

Hopefully 14 of which are Great Artists, providing 56,000 by way of bomb. Those artists cost us 29,800 - 2,100 = 27,700. ~2.02/. Given that we had Parthenon, Philo and Pacifism to increase , it's more like 7.07/. Culture produced the normal way, eg, via also received a x3.5 modifier.

So an artist specialist (with Sistine Chapel) working in Bombay earned us approx 3*7.07 + 6*3.5 = 42.21/turn.
In Delhi the culture multiplier is higher, so it is 3*7.07 + 6*4.5 = 48.21.
In Kyoto the GP modifier is higher, so it is 3*2.02*4.5 + 6*3.5 = 48.27.

The problem of course, is that 1 artist consumes 2 , so needs 2 other citizens working farms to support it. The set of three population (2farms+artist) produce 42-48 as a group.

How does that compare to cottages?

Assuming we built and started working cottages from quite early on, eg, 100 turns from the end. A single cottage->town (assume Free Speech and Printing Press at the end) will produce 10*1 + 20*2 + 40*3 + (100-40-20-10)*7 = 380 over 100 turns = 3.8/turn. Multiply that by 3, since they don't need support from farms, and it comes out as 11.4.
In Delhi (Hermitage city) that would equate to ~51 /turn. It would actually be better for Delhi, since it's highly likely the cottages were built and working more than 100 turns ago.
In other two cities the cottages might be returning ~40 /turn.

What about Waste?

Another problem with the artists is that a fraction of the 4000 culture bomb can easily go to waste. In Kyoto this will be less than 1000, which is still a quarter of a GArtist. In Bombay it could be very high with that last bomb, almost an entire GArtist. You could say that a proportion of the earned for the last 2 artists is wasted, which might be about 3000 all told.

Also, after the last GArtist is born, extra produced in a city is also going to waste. In our case, both Kyoto and Delhi are producing the last 2 artists in quick succession, but there is still about 2000 from Bombay going to waste. Obviously if Bombay had the option to work villages or towns then we could have arranged things better.

Other things to consider

The cottage approach potentially gives more in the lead up to Liberalism/Nationalism. The artist alternative at this stage also produces (under Representation), but only 4 per 3 population, which is less than 3 Hamlets.
The artist approach generates culture throughout, including during the Teching-to-Lib phase. In a way, this is actually bad, because it means the output is not benefitting from the Free Speech bonus and it's likely there are fewer Cathedrals built.
With more luck or planning with the GArtist generation, early GArtists could be settled, potentially yielding much more than the 4000 culture generated by a bomb.

Summary
I think our decision to cottage Delhi was almost certainly the right one.
Our decision to choose the GP Farm of Kyoto as legendary #3 pretty much made the decision for us - you wouldn't build cottages in a GP Farm.

Bombay is the questionable one. For any other leader that isn't Philosophical I would certainly disagree with artists. Even though we are Philo, I'm inclined to think that we made the wrong choice here. I feel that I should accept most of the blame for this, since I was a very strong supporter of the idea.


I hope this post is something to keep in mind for future cultural games you might try.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Knowing their players, my guess is kakumeika is a contender for medals, not spoons. I bet they've gone for a religious victory. With enough espionage (GW) for overcoming the closed borders issue, that should be doable.

 

[Ozbenno]

Knowing their players, my guess is kakumeika is a contender for medals, not spoons. I bet they've gone for a religious victory. With enough espionage (GW) for overcoming the closed borders issue, that should be doable.

I think they have gone religious as well.

Wooden Spoons are for lowest score, not slowest finishes. Kakumeika can be in the medals and get the spoon as well.

 

[Ozbenno]

Bombay is the questionable one. For any other leader that isn't Philosophical I would certainly disagree with artists. Even though we are Philo, I'm inclined to think that we made the wrong choice here. I feel that I should accept most of the blame for this, since I was a very strong supporter of the idea.

Do you mean we should have chosen a city other than Bombay or that we should have cottaged here as well?

 

[adrianj]

Knowing their players, my guess is kakumeika is a contender for medals, not spoons. I bet they've gone for a religious victory. With enough espionage (GW) for overcoming the closed borders issue, that should be doable.

Oh, I totally agree. It's likely they are in line for a medal as well as the spoon.

Do you mean we should have chosen a city other than Bombay or that we should have cottaged here as well?

No, I'm pretty sure Bombay was as good a choice as any. I mean to say that back in the BCs we might have chosen to cottage the city instead of farm it.

But then what else might we have given up? Farms allowed us to work mines, allowing us to build troops to attack Toku.

 

[Ronnie1]

Is there a reason that Delhi produces the last GA and not Kyoto?

My gut says that with the NE, Kyoto has a better opportunity to speed up after Delhi pops but I haven't crunched any numbers.

Been very busy at work for the last month and a half or so. I think we have played a very solid game. Cottaging Bombay was seemed wrong to me because of all the hills and the hammers we needed early on. I am very pleased with how this game has gone given the difficulty of the scenario.

 

[McArine]

Who's UP?? Think McArine said he could take it tonight??

I could play yesterday night, in these games with ppl around the globe, keeping track of when who is where can make my eyes go

I'll be able to play again sunday.

But you don't need to wait for me, if you want to rush it, go for it. Although we still have 10? days left.

 

[Sleepless]

Knowing their players, my guess is kakumeika is a contender for medals, not spoons. I bet they've gone for a religious victory. With enough espionage (GW) for overcoming the closed borders issue, that should be doable.

I was wondering how a team could go for a religious victory by getting around the closed borders issue. I know we could have settled a city close to Hammy/AI and gifted for a +4 boost.

Still not sure to be honest. So looking forward to reading the other teams threads as well.

Back to our game. For the next turnset.

Resource trades. We still have a gold/gems which can be sold though not any money available atm. Should be checked each time. Least I got 14 gold for the whales so worth picking up optics.

HC/Mansa as we no we are very likely there target and I thought they would be coming from the West it now looks likely they will be coming from the East so a unit in Hatties lands (seems weird taliking of hattie/liz etc and getting piccies of Toku ) to keep an eye would be a good idea. Ditto keeping the warrior in Hammies lands and check each time for units.

War Targets as mentioned.

We are still potential targets for HC and Hammy so I think we are now at the stage where we could beg 1 gold off them and get the guaranteed ten turns of peace. Perhaps hold off a bit with HC but def Hammie.

Also would promote units in the fort now. Woodie 2 for the musket. CG for the Lbs etc. It might help if we get hit with mounted troops on the first turn. Alternatively we could abandon the fort and move back to Palit (though I prefer staying in the fort).