SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

[ZPV]

ZPV, when does G1E pop the GS in your scenario?

It's available to bulb on t67=1320BC, which probably means 1360 in the log.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That's a reasonably safe date for the Oracle, I suppose. So far, Poly is untouched but there are a couple of opponents who could research to Phood and build the Oracle pretty rapidly.

What are we going to do with our GPeople? In your scenario, the Prophet is unavoidable. If we get two of them we could bulb Theology and CS. Both are needed, really. I'm not sure what we'd do with GSes, unless we find out we need Astro.

The reason I'm asking is I've been looking at building SH in Zlatorog and the Library+GS in Delhi to keep our gene pool clear. SH in Zlatorog would mean our culture would get a glimpse of the NE land around 500BC, which might or might not be useful. I still need to put together a run that can build the Marble City on a timely basis. We should get the GS sooner, but without the settler, it doesn't help.

 

[Mitchum]

@LC In your scenario, where do plan to build the Oracle? Do you plan to split SH and the Oracle, getting GPro points in two cities? Or build them both in Zlatorog?

 

[Mitchum]

It looks like Kakumeika completed a wonder. Quite early I might add...

 

[Mitchum]

@ ZPV

Nice working getting to five cities so quickly.

How did you MM Gold-E? Did you have to leave the gold mine unworked while you hired one or two scientists? There aren't many improved tiles there in the inner ring, so you must have had both workers leave the area and then come back after BW to chop the library... I was thinking that the city might have a farm at gold-SE and a mine... I wonder if there is a way to work the gold continuously while still popping a GS in a reasonable time frame. 3H8C / turn is a lot to give up.

How many pre-Math chops did you use?

It looks like worker actions are tight as many cities are working un-improved tiles or will be soon. I guess whipping (rax, cats, axes, etc.) can take care of that.

 

[ZPV]

That's a reasonably safe date for the Oracle, I suppose. So far, Poly is untouched but there are a couple of opponents who could research to Phood and build the Oracle pretty rapidly.

What are we going to do with our GPeople? In your scenario, the Prophet is unavoidable. If we get two of them we could bulb Theology and CS. Both are needed, really. I'm not sure what we'd do with GSes, unless we find out we need Astro.

The reason I'm asking is I've been looking at building SH in Zlatorog and the Library+GS in Delhi to keep our gene pool clear. SH in Zlatorog would mean our culture would get a glimpse of the NE land around 500BC, which might or might not be useful. I still need to put together a run that can build the Marble City on a timely basis. We should get the GS sooner, but without the settler, it doesn't help.

Well, a shrine makes for an instant GPro farm (and a little bit of gold, combined with doubled random spread chances), with its priest slots. Kyoto (which we know has a lot of food) would probably make a good GS farm with Caste if we need it.

Maybe we should be heading for a backdoor religious win - we can conquer the ones we can't convert.

 

[ZPV]

@ ZPV

Nice working getting to five cities so quickly.

How did you MM Gold-E? Did you have to leave the gold mine unworked while you hired one or two scientists? There aren't many improved tiles there in the inner ring, so you must have had both workers leave the area and then come back after BW to chop the library... I was thinking that the city might have a farm at gold-SE and a mine... I wonder if there is a way to work the gold continuously while still popping a GS in a reasonable time frame. 3H8C / turn is a lot to give up.

How many pre-Math chops did you use?

It looks like worker actions are tight as many cities are working un-improved tiles or will be soon. I guess whipping (rax, cats, axes, etc.) can take care of that.

Gold-E ignored the gold while running two scientists. 3H8C gets us precisely nowhere towards Mathematics. There is no way to run the gold and the scientists - you need to do it somewhere else, and that means either another sparkly resource potentially goes unworked, or Delhi doesn't build Stonehenge.
I chopped 4 pre-Maths forests, all in Gold-E, and 1 more in Delhi. One left after pre-chopping the southern forest; the other pre/chopped continuously, with one out of our borders.

There are spare worker turns around - I just ignored them to get a date for the GS (the things I do for that guy...).

 

[Mitchum]

I just played a quick test run and I can see the sticking points. It takes quite a bit of work to finesse that early library and hence the early GS. Good job.

On gems, did you send two workers over there? Did you chop the forest where the city is settled before sitting the settler down? I was able to build a farm 1E of the gems resource to avoid losing a worker turn on the way over there. That gave the city an improved tile to work while waiting for the pigs to be pastured.

Nice work on getting the marble quarried and connected. I think with a bit more worker MM (to use up the spare turns you mentioned), we can squeeze just a bit more out of them.

Is there anything "controversial" or debatable between now and when you learn BW? Are we all sold on building SH in Delhi? If we're all in agreement on the next few steps, maybe a PPP is in order. I'd like to find out where Neil put the copper... Or do we need to iron out more details with more testing before moving forward?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm still testing SH in Zlatorog. Should be done tonight.

EDIT: Btw, Mitchum, I haven't answered your questions, because I don't have the answers yet.

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[Dhoomstriker]

It looks like Kakumeika completed a wonder. Quite early I might add...

Hmmm, that's a game-winner right there... I mean, they could have Oracled Fishing! We're doomed!

Joking aside, it's one way to get a reasonably fast Great Prophet (Stonehenge or Oracle) or Great Spy (Great Wall).


I'm glad to hear that it was Hammy and not Toku with the Axemen (at least, so far).

Maybe we should be heading for a backdoor religious win - we can conquer the ones we can't convert.

With all this talk of infinite Peaks and/or an unreachable AI, Religious or Cultural would be our best bets.

Note that if an AI is Peaked-off (think walled-off but with Peaks), we can always gift said AI a City with the AP Religion inside of it, but Conquest wouldn't be achievable for a very long time.


I'm fine with using up pre-Math Chops (on a Library) in order to get Math so that future Chops become more valuable.


Since we're set on killing the wounded Lion but since no battle is ever 100%, if our Warrior dies in the battle, we'll want to stop play there are reassess the situation, as we'll need to figure out where a replacement Warrior is going to come from and whether we'll even be able to get one out in time to get a Cease Fire... if we can't get a Cease Fire then our plans may need to shift dramatically.


Even if I can't currently load Civ 4, I could still critique a detailed plan of Worker actions.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Before I forget: Slavery costs us +1gpt at some point, so we don't need it till we need it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I got it to work. T64 1440BC with math and Oracle (1t) in Delhi.

Of course, there are trade-offs. Delhi is barren of forests, SH cost two more in Zlatorog. The pigs are not pastured yet, although bear in mind this is 3t earlier than ZPV's save.

On the other hand, we get Oracle 3t sooner. Marble City is about to produce its workboat. We've already researched Fishing, Hunting, and Pottery and we're saving for IW. The sixth settler arrives at the Fur/cow site next turn.

One catch is that the MM was very precise. Took me several reloads to optimize. There may be more improvements of course.

Have a look.

 

[ZPV]

Cool, LC. I'll take a look.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@LC In your scenario, where do plan to build the Oracle? Do you plan to split SH and the Oracle, getting GPro points in two cities? Or build them both in Zlatorog?

SH in Zlatorog, the Oracle in Delhi, so Delhi is impure, but at 4gppt going to 200gps, we can still guarantee our next GS in G1E or Gems, if we want.

On the other hand, if we end up going for cultural, then SH should be in Delhi...

Iirc I put seven chops into Delhi and 2 into Zlatorog. "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay, I work all night and I sleep all day"

G1E is still unchopped.

You'll be disappointed to hear I mined the G1E gold before pasturing the sheep. That gets us BW on T46, which allows the Zlatorog worker to immediately start chopping SH. I haven't tried the other way around, so it might well be better, with SH simply finishing a turn later, although the worker turns were really tight all the way through. I think there was only 1 pre-chop that was inconsequential.

Also, if we get a copper or three that might change everything. Or if we get another chance to steal a worker safely...

 

[LowtherCastle]

A couple more thoughts before I take my dog for a midnight walk in the freezing rain.

I went Fishing-Pottery-Hunting, perfectly timed to start the wb in Marble CIty, but possibly building the granary in Marble City would grow it faster, since there will be a 20h chop to finish the granary. I started building libraries eerywhere, but maybe they should be rax instead. Then build the libraries after granaries and units, if at all.

If we don't connect Deer/COws (I accidentally called it Fur/Cows up above), then it could be a warrior pump for a while.

 

[ZPV]

Thoughts on Zlat-SH:
It could be useful if we go down the domination route.
Have you considered putting the Oracle somewhere else? Even G-1E could be a possibility, and we could flip (or at least revolt) Osaka, giving us some free war success if it's timed right, or in Zlat, to speed up the cross-channel culture link.
The good thing about it is we're working all the power tiles all the time - something my line doesn't do.

I see a couple of roads near marble. Are they there to speed up a settler? Otherwise they can be ignored, and the river does the rest.

Deer/Cow will be river-connected automatically. Definitely Rax or Granary instead of library. Our first priority is to get out of this cage. We won't be running scientists while we build and whip our army.

What happens to your MM if we have copper? Is there any way at all that we can improve/connect it?
What if neil's hidden it where the sun don't shine, i.e. 2SW of G-E?.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thoughts on Zlat-SH:
It could be useful if we go down the domination route.
Have you considered putting the Oracle somewhere else? Even G-1E could be a possibility, and we could flip (or at least revolt) Osaka, giving us some free war success if it's timed right, or in Zlat, to speed up the cross-channel culture link.
The good thing about it is we're working all the power tiles all the time - something my line doesn't do.

I first wanted the Oracle in Marble. Haven't tried eslewehere.

I see a couple of roads near marble. Are they there to speed up a settler? Otherwise they can be ignored, and the river does the rest.

Yes, they sped up the settler, plus they were a legacy from tring to build the Oracle in Marble. Maybe they could free up some worker turns to build the Oracle in Zlatorog, but then we're back to having a GProph guaranteed. My gut feeling is that would could put together the roads to connect G1E in time. Part of the problem is getting the chops done in time, immediately after quarrying the marble. It's extremely tight. But who knows?

Deer/Cow will be river-connected automatically. Definitely Rax or Granary instead of library. Our first priority is to get out of this cage. We won't be running scientists while we build and whip our army.

RIght, I said that off memory.

What happens to your MM if we have copper? Is there any way at all that we can improve/connect it?
What if neil's hidden it where the sun don't shine, i.e. 2SW of G-E?.

Just depends on where it is. In my current MM, two workers are still at G1E, but ready to come to Delhi to chop the sttler and library. The 3rd wkr is of course at Zlatorog, chopping SH. We could squeeze it in, especially if it will help.

 

[ZPV]

Next question: is there any way to squeeze another worker out of somewhere (even if it delays the Deer settler)? That would make things a whole lot easier, and I'm sure it would pay for itself pretty quickly. I suspect there'll be a second archer in Osaka before Toku offers a second worker, which puts an end to that opportunity.

The worker turns are so tight, frankly because three workers aren't enough.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Next question: is there any way to squeeze another worker out of somewhere (even if it delays the Deer settler)? That would make things a whole lot easier, and I'm sure it would pay for itself pretty quickly. I suspect there'll be a second archer in Osaka before Toku offers a second worker, which puts an end to that opportunity.

The worker turns are so tight, frankly because three workers aren't enough.

Absolutely! Glad you brought that up, because I forgot to mention that G1E settler was just a placeholder of sorts. G1E could alternatively 1) go sheep>gold, and/or 2) build something while growing to pop3, and/or 3) build a worker, as you suggested. 1) would have to be tested immediately. The others come after the warrior and growth to pop2.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another detail I forgot to mention was that Delhi partially built SH while growing to pop4 (Edit: T45), then slowbuilt the Gems settler to time its completion with Writing so chops+overflow could go straight into the library, which is completed in 2t. The failed gold enabled us to get TW+Phood really fast, so the workers could road to the marble and then quarry the marble.

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