SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

[SteelHorse]

Hmmm. Not totally convinced on the AH ahead of BW. Though I have come around to getting the gold in the inner ring with the second city 1E of Gold.

Reasoning - mining the gold ahead of pasturing the sheep, gives a better return. It allows us to get wheel sooner than sheep then gold. wheel gets us the trade route for the extra-gold to city 2. While doing 1 pop slaving gets settlers out 2 turns quicker. this get city 3 quicker. wheel gets us the trade route for the extra-gold to city 2.

I will do a test of BW first working gold until wheel and then switch to pastured sheep.

Then again, I don't think we agreed wheel next.

Will post shortly results.

Edit: added screenshot

Spoiler :

 

[Trystero]

I tried 2 tests similar to Xc's tests, to compare farming the FP versus finishing the mine:

Test #1
t21: research AH
t25: corn farmed
t26: worker #1 move 1E to FP, start farm
t31: settler finished (move to 1E of gold), start worker
t32: FP farmed
t33: AH complete, start BW (or The Wheel), worker #1 to grass hill (or move to sheep?)
t34: found 2nd city, build Monument
t35: mine finished
t36: worker #2 finished, move to sheep, Bollywood builds warrior. worker #1 can move to gold (or mine 2nd GH)
t38: worker #2 starts sheep pasture, worker #1 starts gold mine
t39: Bollywood grows to size 3
t40: warrior done in Bollywood, start settler (14h into settler)

Test #2
t21: research AH
t25: corn farmed
t26: worker #1 move to grass hill.
t27: mine GH
t28: mine finished
t29: worker #1 moves to FP, starts farm
t31: settler finished (move to 1E of gold), start worker
t33: AH complete, start BW (or The Wheel)
t34: found 2nd city, build Monument
t35: FP farmed
t36: worker #2 finished, move to sheep, Bollywood builds warrior. worker #1 can move to gold (or mine 2nd GH)
t38: worker #2 starts sheep pasture, worker #1 starts gold mine
t39: Bollywood grows to size 3
t40: warrior done in Bollywood, start settler (18h into settler)

There are many potential variables, but it looks like finished the mine first has a slight advantage. I also think AH next seems reasonable if we are going to found a city next to the sheep. I would favor improving food first over hammers or commerce.

Also, if we are going to build settlers in Bollywood (and not grow past size 3), moving both workers to the 2nd city to improve the gold and sheep might make sense. It depends on whether AH shows horses nearby.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Yeah, it's kinda six of one, half a dozen of the other. Mine first nets us 4 more hammers toward the settler, but at the cost (I think) of 8 gold (since the mine has no commerce). I've followed SH's suggestion and played around a little with doing BW before AH and we can get settlers and workers out faster that way with a little whipping and chopping. It would take some work to optimize the builds, tile usage, and worker actions, but my gut says this would be better in terms of setting up cities faster. With chopping, we can finish the gold city monument and mine the gold (instead of pasturing the sheep) and therefore get the corn in the BFC faster. We can also chop the forest where we (probably?) want to settle the western gems city, giving us 8 hammers toward Bollywood; I had to delay the settling by a turn, though--can probably fix that with better MM.

BW first lets us whip and chop, and of course reveals copper. Copper can appear pretty much anywhere without forest. AH lets us pasture the sheep and reveals horses (but we can't build chariots until we the The Wheel). Horses appear on flat, treeless, grass and plains. Either way, even if we stick in Wheel between them, we'll have both BW and AH by around T52 (from memory). Are we in significant danger from barbs or the Toku's before then? Offhand I'd say no, so would probably vote for BW first. (But that was my first preference, then I switched to AH, and now I'm back, so you can't trust anything I say.)

 

[Deckhand]

What is the roster order? Alphabetical per post 3?
I would be in favor of someone that has played with the test game taking this next turn set. Perhaps Xcal, Steelhorse, or Trystero. I am available to play, but not to test.

I think we just need to decide the next tech and post a final PPP.
Would finding horses or copper change our plan to settle by sheep and gold? Would one but not the other? I vote for BW for chopping (and whipping). I am also OK with AH.

I'm concerned about Oracle. We might not have Marble until our fourth city. Will we build Oracle without it? When do we expect to complete it?

 

[Trystero]

I don't think the location of strategic resources will affect the placement of the blocking city very much. Blocking off Tokugawa's expansion should be a prioritiy. I agree that we will want some combination of AH, BW, and The Wheel as the next techs, it's just a matter of sorting out the order. I still need to run some tests of BW before AH to see how the chops/whips would work out.

Getting the Oracle requires at least Priesthood (and maybe Masonry if we are going to use the marble). It's hard to predict when the Oracle will go. It depends a lot on the map and the AI. If everyone is Tokugawa, it could go quite late.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Roster order: I was planning to see who is most involved and available as we go, and then try to keep a rough balance in turns after we've gone around.

City placement depending on where copper or horses are revealed: If we go with AH first, the timing works nicely for settling 1E of the gold. BW takes one turn longer so we'd have to rest the settler for a turn--in my test game I moved the him 1 tile farther (on top of the hill W of the corn) to open more options. I'd really rather not settle on top of a juicy resource like copper (or horses) but maybe it's not worth delaying by a turn.

Worker stealing: I've asked a couple times but don't recall a response. If we know we don't want to do it then we should probably pull back both eastern warriors for fogbusting once they've explored as far as they can. And if we do decide to try, we better not try it without knowing we can build either axes or chariots.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

If a worker steal is possible, I think we should do it, even if we only have warriors. We already have 3 warriors and could build some more for power to get peace, along with the techs. The benefits of a free early fast worker should not be underestimated.

 

[Trystero]

I agree we should keep worker stealing on the table, and have at least one warrior near Tokugawa's border.

 

[kcd_swede]

First, let me say I don't think there will be a big difference between BW first or AH first.

Second, I'll present my argument for AH first: AH is faster and reveals a strategic resource before settler starts walking. AH is immediately useful to get bonus tiles on-line. BW is not immediately useful since we don't have worker turns to spare for chopping yet, and we won't whip pop off the power tiles, so not likely to whip much yet either.

I could even be convinced that hunting-AH is better, as it gives a prereq bonus plus enables a camp.

But I do not feel strongly about my preference for waiting with BW. Its not a game-changer, as the differences are miniscule (and actually depend on where what is revealed as to which proves better).

So... I'd suggest just putting it up for a vote and see what the majority of us prefer.
...
As for worker steal I say do it if we get the chance, even if we can only build warriors.
It not only speeds up our development, it slows down Toku's.
...
Micro... FP farm first is fine with me.
...

Probably should decide who is up and who is on deck... encourages those people to take some initiative in the planning/testing. I'm still on limited availability.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I've read back over the previous discussions, will vote animal husbandry or hunting -> animal husbandry first. I think getting the sheep and pigs pastured is more important than chopping, and as kcd says we'll have both soon enough.

Based on the testing, I vote mine first because 4 early hammers are worth more than 5 or 6 commerce (which is all we would lose). Thanks for all the testing!

 

[kcd_swede]

I've read back over the previous discussions, will vote animal husbandry or hunting -> animal husbandry first. I think getting the sheep and pigs pastured is more important than chopping, and as kcd says we'll have both soon enough.

Based on the testing, I vote mine first because 4 early hammers are worth more than 5 or 6 commerce (which is all we would lose). Thanks for all the testing!

Oh, yeah... if its up for a vote I'd vote to Mine before farming FP, too. But I'm OK with either.

 

[Trystero]

I would vote for Animal Husbandry first, since it allows us to improve the sheep at the blocking city site.

We settled on the stone because we reasoned that earlier hammers were valuable, so I'd also vote to finish the mine before farming the FP in order to save hammers, even if the difference isn't huge as Xcalibrator pointed out.

 

[High King J.J.]

No wonder most people have 4-digit number of posts since we seem to take ages just to decide whether a worker mines one turn more or less. But never mind, I'm not complaining. (Or if I seem to, I don't expect anyone to give a [3-gorges dam]n.)
Still, I may think twice before playing another SGOTM, I can't be bothered to spreadsheet or test-game everything. for those who do, I guess I'm just more reckless for wanting to plan a little less.

I vote:
-finish the mine first
-tech AH, hunting+AH or BW. Whatever. Get some resource visible.
-we actually play a few turns soon
-I get some (more)

Will execute last action I voted for.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Sorry, work has been crazy today and I have to prep for and lead a meeting tomorrow. I didn't check out the BW-first test as thoroughly as I'd like but looked better to me than AH first. I'm already completely convinced by testing that Hunting first is not good. I'll try to work on the BW-first case tonight and give more solid numbers. SH, what was your impression? In any case, I would really like to hold off on a final decision a little longer.

 

[SteelHorse]

Sorry, work has been crazy today and I have to prep for and lead a meeting tomorrow. I didn't check out the BW-first test as thoroughly as I'd like but looked better to me than AH first. I'm already completely convinced by testing that Hunting first is not good. I'll try to work on the BW-first case tonight and give more solid numbers. SH, what was your impression? In any case, I would really like to hold off on a final decision a little longer.

I think there are two questions that are relevant for the decision.

1. Is it better to initially work the sheep or the gold? I think the gold is better until we get through wheel as in BW-AH-Wheel. Earlier wheel is good for the workers.

2. Would we whip or chop while we are in the turns researching the second tech. I think there is an opportunity to save two turns off the 3rd city settler with a 1-pop whip in the capital if we are in slavery.

The benefit of AH first is to work the sheep first. If we feel working the sheep is better than working gold first and saving 2 turns off a settler in exchange for 1 tile worked while we grow back then AH is best.

That said - I am happy to go with the majority.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I'm OK with AH first. Finishing the FP farm before the mine works out better for mumble mumble reasons I might have trouble explaining. I have a step by step plan and am ready/willing to play through AH and the settling of our 2nd city tomorrow night, but if someone else wants to play and has a plan (even one that works the mine instead of farmed FP), that would be OK too, especially if he can play tomorrow during the day.

My latest tests did BW, AH, Wheel, ... and AH, BW, Wheel through T61, with some near optimal (I think) whipping in both cases. The latter was a little better on both hammers and beakers. I think SH is right about having the second city work its gold hill (unimproved) first--this speeds the monument, with good timing for border pop, corn farming, and worker availability. But that's something that can be tested again after we settle--horses popping up somewhere might change things. As would a worker steal and many other things. So.... let's play another 13 or so turns and see what happens!

(Sorry I haven't been keeping up with Ref links to screenshots, play report, etc. I should have more time after tomorrow.)

 

[ChrisShaffer]

What are the odds for religion spread to the new cities? Then we wouldn't need monuments.

 

[Trystero]

Xcalibrator: could you post a brief outline (build orders, tiles worked, when you whiped) of your tests to t61? It would help in testing to compare when and what you are building (workers/warriors etc).

I don't know if I'd want to wait for religion spread to pop the 2nd city's borders, since popping the borders puts a second food source (corn) in the BFC, and lets us mine more hills.

 

[Deckhand]

What are the odds for religion spread to the new cities? Then we wouldn't need monuments.

Pretty good,
after we've built a shrine.
until then, I agree with Trystero:

I don't know if I'd want to wait for religion spread to pop the 2nd city's borders, since popping the borders puts a second food source (corn) in the BFC, and lets us mine more hills.

And especially because we want it to be a blocking city. We want its borders to grow as rapidly as possible.


Green from me for XCal to play Tuesday night. Either AH or BW. I will change my vote to AH because sheep are immediately useful and we want horses and other reasons mentioned above. My support for BW was based on caution: we could whip defensive warriors if needed. We will get it soon enough.

 

[AAA]

I don't have much experience with whipping so I don't prioritize BW to the same extent, so with little advise to offer, I'm fine with what ever has a majority of opinion.