SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

[AAA]

Unless the yellow/red status of Deckhand, HKJJ, Rusten, or Chris has changed, I do believe that AAA would be next up. This also fits in with his being the first to respond after I asked.

Sorry, I haven't yet opened the save to look at things closely--having too much "fun" with BOTM52. Then again, I really should give other people a chance to comment, don't you think? Bueller? Beuller? Anyone? Anyone?

Ah oh, this would be me . I can do it, but this isn't my game. I rarely use whipping, and tend to leave my population on cottages and mines. I'm pretty sure that's not the plan. Still it is fun to whack stuff.

 

[Xcalibrator]

@Trys: Er, yeah, me suggesting CoL after Construction was one of those "provocations" I mentioned. Yes, the general feeling was in favor of Alphabet next--sometimes I find it hard to let go of my broken plans. IW would certainly be useful but maybe we can extort that from Toku. As you say, though, perhaps that's too far off. Metal Casting would be nice for forges and extra gold/gems happiness, or Monarchy for Hered Rule happies--both too expensive for now, though. It just seems a bit 'wasteful' to research Alpha when we know Toku will have it soonish and we could (?) extort it from him for peace, while we research IW (2/3 the cost of Alpha) and might reveal a nice ore deposit to mine while we're building an army. But maybe Alpha would be too expensive for Toku to be willing to part with it--or maybe he won't have it finished by the time we're ready to offer him peace.

Any other volunteers to play besides the too-kind-to-his-people AAA? Going once, going twice... (You'd be fine, AAA. We'll let you run a few cottages while you whip. )

 

[SteelHorse]

Some interesting choices in the next turnset. While I think we agree on inflecting some medieval trauma with Cats and Axes we need to decide a few things.

1. What to tech next? Alpha - useful for extracting techs and generating spies, but Japan will have in 11, maybe best just to beat out of him. Monarchy - for HR and more happy faces toward Feud and LBs. CoL - As Xcal suggests on path to CS. Currency - for markets in our cottaged towns. MC for some seapower with Triremes and toward Mach and XBows. Possibilities are endless. I guess I would suggest setting research to zero for now as we will be producing units and need cash for that.

2. Who to attack? Toku has quite a stack there, perhaps Hammy instead. Well I think that stack is coming our way sooner or later. Perhaps we can coax him out of the Osaka with a stack of cats on waiting on top of the hill.

3. What size army? What can we afford? What will it take for Toku?

Other points.

We probably want to prevent the AI from meeting those that they haven't to minimize tech trade. Maybe with everyone being Toku they will all tech the same???

We are starting to lose corn and are well on our way to AP, some Cat pop with overflow into AP may be in order.

AAA - If you really aren't up for the whip and no one else is interested I can play next weekend.

 

[High King J.J.]

Just to show I'm alive (well, sort of), I remind that we know of one Hammygawa's iron deposit, it's that mine with the extra hammer output that was seen in an earlier screenshot on the edge of explored terrain to the north.
IW would be nice, it's the only early resource tech we lack.

Mapwise I hope we do research sailing, preferably soon. We should put at least one city on the western island before anyone else beats us to it.
I think we need to think outside the box, I'm anticipating a big mountain-encircled box where we are imprisoned at least until we can sail out of it. Outside the box we might encounter a non-Toku leader or three, if we ever get that far.
Exploration is vital in the long run but for now I'm content with military expansion. Toku must die eventually, or at least be reduced to a single city with only hinduism as religion. Sort of alternative "vassal" state, semi-friendly because of shared religion.

 

[kcd_swede]

Just to show I'm alive (well, sort of), I remind that we know of one Hammygawa's iron deposit, it's that mine with the extra hammer output that was seen in an earlier screenshot on the edge of explored terrain to the north.
IW would be nice, it's the only early resource tech we lack.

Mapwise I hope we do research sailing, preferably soon. We should put at least one city on the western island before anyone else beats us to it.
I think we need to think outside the box, I'm anticipating a big mountain-encircled box where we are imprisoned at least until we can sail out of it. Outside the box we might encounter a non-Toku leader or three, if we ever get that far.
Exploration is vital in the long run but for now I'm content with military expansion. Toku must die eventually, or at least be reduced to a single city with only hinduism as religion. Sort of alternative "vassal" state, semi-friendly because of shared religion.

Hmmm... I bet the military VC's will require astro. Certainly getting around the map-makers barriers will require optics. Sailing gives us the chance to settle the island with a good city or two, yielding +2 trade routes. IW gives us insight to the resource. Alpha gives us extortion possibililities... heck, they are ALL good techs to have. But what gives us most bang for our research buck?

Frankly, I think the PPP is going have about 10 turns with no research, to build a cash reserve. I'd suggest Aestheics path... it the culture way, and it gives us a tech the AI eschew, to gift or trade with... or just build some key wonders, But since our tech rate will be low, not a big deal.

I think Toku might give cheap non-mil tech(s) for peace, but nothing more. And he'll only do it once. That's my xp, but maybe I just don't know what I'm doing.

Save money, make cats. Figure we will suicide at least 2-3 cats on each city. Make enough. Win the war, then see where we find ourselves.

Alpha is probably best... if we make it cheap its more likely to get it by extortion. Otherwise, we want spies out there... maybe as good as caravels, tbh.

AAA... its time to learn how to use the whip. We'll help make the PPP as detailed as you need. But basically, you want to get 2-pop whips 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 pop in cities that have one or two great food resources. Thast's all they work. A 2-pop whip means you can't have less than 30 hammers left on the build. An axe can't have more than 5 hammers, for example. You want as close to 30 leftas you dare, because the overflow goes to the next build. If you are building something else, that's what gets the overflow. Otherwise, you alternate whip a unit and build a unit.

We'll keep a production city like Drona and a cottage city like Bolly free from the whip, for the most part. Anyhow, build cats everywhere you can.

 

[Trystero]

Hmmm... I bet the military VC's will require astro. Certainly getting around the map-makers barriers will require optics. Sailing gives us the chance to settle the island with a good city or two, yielding +2 trade routes. IW gives us insight to the resource. Alpha gives us extortion possibililities... heck, they are ALL good techs to have. But what gives us most bang for our research buck?

Frankly, I think the PPP is going have about 10 turns with no research, to build a cash reserve. I'd suggest Aestheics path... it the culture way, and it gives us a tech the AI eschew, to gift or trade with... or just build some key wonders, But since our tech rate will be low, not a big deal.

I believe Hatsegawa has already researched Aesthetic. I'm not sure that would influence this decision, but it means that trading opportunity (and those wonders) are in jeopardy. Though No Tech Brokering would work to our advantage in this case.

Alpha is probably best... if we make it cheap its more likely to get it by extortion. Otherwise, we want spies out there... maybe as good as caravels, tbh.

I agree with Alphabet next, but I'm going to reiterate my support for IW soon. If we are going to be constantly at war with our neighbors, we will need access to iron for swords or maces, and it would be good to know where it is before we settle too many more cities (if we have access, that is).

Otherwise I am in agreement with the general plan.

 

[Deckhand]

Not much to add. Settling the island would be nice but catapults are needed much more. We will get plenty of cities from 'gawas.
Would we settle the island (asap) if it had iron (and we didn't elsewhere)? If so, then research iron working next. Else, it can wait. Both our neighbors have iron.
Currently both our neighbors can colonize the island without entering our borders.

I think one of our neighbors will likely DOW on us if we wait for him. Not that we care about you-declared-on-our-friend penalties. 'gawa's just not going to like us until we gift him Banking.
I think we like Toku keeping his stack in Osaka. We will need to kill them all eventually. We can attack them all on the first turn we declare. We just need a lot of Cat's and other units.

Built catapults, build AP, tech Alpha (or IW) at 0%.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Good job.

Vijay doesn't need a border pop to prevent Hamuragawa from settling too close. Nippur and Vijay make all the intervening tiles unable to be settled.

Agree with tech Alphabet at 0% and whip/chop an army. We need spies, Alphabet is too crucial to pass up right now.

RL still hectic, can't take the next set.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Great to see all the input. Looks like we agree on the basic plan: Hedge our research choice by setting to 0% for awhile (Alpha or IW) and build lots of cats. Assuming Osaka has around 12 units defending it or nearby when we attack, I'd vote for at least 8 cats and 8 axes. We can't build enough units to take it in one turn, so we'll need enough surviving cats to finish him off on the 2nd round (or continue to bleed him if he send more units to reinforce). We could probably take the city with fewer axes but I think we need enough to dissuade him from moving anything out of the city toward Drona. We'll need a scout near the front to act as a supermedic when we get our GG. Did I read somewhere we're only 2 pts away? Try to arrange the attack so that the unit that puts us over the threshold was built in Bolly, Drona, or Holy Cow (i.e., near the front) so the GG is born in one of those cities.

Any idea when we'll lose the corn? (kcd, can you tell the rate of change of cultural control over the past few turns?) We should not whip Drona if it can't grow back very quickly, and only whip (2 pop) when it's exceeded its happy cap. Do we want it to concentrate on the AP or cats? We're going to need at least a couple cats from it.

Trys, why do you think Hattie has Aesth? kcd, can you work with AAA on the PPP?

 

[Trystero]

Trys, why do you think Hattie has Aesth? kcd, can you work with AAA on the PPP?

I thought I noticed that when I was looking at the diplo tech screen (She(?) is the only one with Alphabet, right?). But I could be wrong about that. It's happened before.

I can't check the save at work, but it is possible I imagined the whole thing.

Even if Aesthetics is available, I would still vote for Alpha. I'm with Chris: We need spies to scout around (and steal techs).

 

[Xcalibrator]

Why yes, looking at the diplo/tech screen would be a good way to see what Hattie has. I still haven't opened the save--been busy. Maybe tonight. I'll try to remember to see how many EPs are needed to steal techs, etc.

 

[kcd_swede]

I'm in California now... my laptop needs to use the vpn through Sweden to use the BUFFY mod, so I can't open the save until I return to Sweden. So if you want details on the whipping in turns and hammer counts... I can't do that for a while.

I think AAA is overly modest, he can't be so great at HoF games without a pretty good feel for how to whip up an army quickly. And anyhow, I'm terrible at hammer-counting and planning more than a couple turns ahead anyhow, so even if I could open the save it wouldn't be much help.

Perhaps AAA can play just 2 turns at a time, and you all can agree on where and when to whip something before doing so. Short pause after every 2 turns for consensus on "should I whip this one or let it finish?".

Figure out how many hammers you can have invested in a cat and still whip it with 2-pop ( its 30 hammers per pop at normal speed). Work from there. 2-pop whenever possible because you get twice as many hammers for the unhappiness generated, plus the regrowth rate is maximized.

Agree that alpha or IW both are pretty equivalent if we are setting to 0% research for a while... though we will have specialists hired so we should choose. I vote alpha... but I don't feel strongly about it. IW works for me too.

 

[AAA]

I'm in California now... my laptop needs to use the vpn through Sweden to use the BUFFY mod, so I can't open the save until I return to Sweden. So if you want details on the whipping in turns and hammer counts... I can't do that for a while.

I think AAA is overly modest, he can't be so great at HoF games without a pretty good feel for how to whip up an army quickly. And anyhow, I'm terrible at hammer-counting and planning more than a couple turns ahead anyhow, so even if I could open the save it wouldn't be much help.

Perhaps AAA can play just 2 turns at a time, and you all can agree on where and when to whip something before doing so. Short pause after every 2 turns for consensus on "should I whip this one or let it finish?".

Figure out how many hammers you can have invested in a cat and still whip it with 2-pop ( its 30 hammers per pop at normal speed). Work from there. 2-pop whenever possible because you get twice as many hammers for the unhappiness generated, plus the regrowth rate is maximized.

Agree that alpha or IW both are pretty equivalent if we are setting to 0% research for a while... though we will have specialists hired so we should choose. I vote alpha... but I don't feel strongly about it. IW works for me too.

Actually I never whip armies, I build them or cut them. But that being said, it is kind of straightforward to open a city screen and click the lite up arrow - is there more to it than that?

Anyway with a little guidance, how badly could I screw it up

So sure sign me up for the next set

 

[kcd_swede]

Actually I never whip armies, I build them or cut them. But that being said, it is kind of straightforward to open a city screen and click the lite up arrow - is there more to it than that?

Anyway with a little guidance, how badly could I screw it up

So sure sign me up for the next set

The only way to really screw it up is to whip without having any hammers already invested. There's a big penalty for that, so it should be done only in an absolute emergency.

It used to be a lot more complicated, because you'd whip something with a build bonus to get the bonus on the overflow. But that exploit has been fixed. Overflow can't exceed the amount of the build and bonus only applies to the correct build, so whipping something like a warrior gives overflow only sufficeint to the hammers for a warrior (rest of overflow goes to cash). Won't be a problem whipping cats.

One thing to avoid is whipping citizens off of tiles that give better yield than whipping itself. A mined hill is about the break-even, so you can work those and have about the same average production rate in that city, without gaining unhappiness. 5-yield tiles should be worked, not whipped. 3 or less are better whipped than worked.

Note, when the force is about ready to go, I'd even whip the mines in those cities for an extra unit for the start of the war (at expense of reinforcements coming later).

If overflow makes a 2-pop whip impossible,and the city has crap production, a 1-pop whip is acceptable... but if you know how many units you need from that city its easier to decide.

When whipping a lot, it is permissible to let the city have unhappy citizens if you can still grow reasonably fast. Whip those sad folks away 2 at a time when the opportunity arises.

More specific advice I can't give at the moment.

When in doubt, stop for discussion I guess.

Anyhow... there is a certain amount of "learning by doing" needed. So set up a test game and practice whipping cats in similar food/hammer producing cities before you play.

Maybe Yamps will pop in and give some more advice? He was perhaps the best whipper on the team in earlier sgotm's. And maybe he's lurking?

 

[Yamps]

^@kcd



Hmm, I used to bother more with those details before. How to whip more efficiently, etc. Now I tend to ignore all that and just whip hard to the ground, unhappiness be damned!

@AAA

In terms of production efficiency, it's best to wait with the whip till the last possible moment to still get the 2 pop whip and not the 1 pop whip. The reason to wait for as long as possible is to regrow earlier to the tiles you whipped away and to use your production tiles longer. It's also useful to put overflow from whipped catas to axes to finish those manually, you'll have problems to whip axes with 2 pop and not 1 pop.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I can't add to what kcd and Yamps said. But one big question is, do we devote Drona to the AP or to building cats? Maybe stick with AP until it's finished, except when we need to 2-whip a cat when we get above the happy cap?

 

[Xcalibrator]

Finally looked at the game. Hattie not only has Alpha and Aesth, (s)he has Meditation, Sailing, IW, and Construction. Drona's corn is 36% Japanese; I don't know when we started to lose ground but it probably won't be long before it's gone. It's 9 turns to grow, so in reality Drona will probably be stuck at this pop for awhile--16 hpt. While we're in OrgRel I'd have a FW chop that forest 3N1E next turn toward the AP. Revolt to Theoc only when we're about to finish unit(s) somewhere--OrgRel gives us an extra 4 hpt for the AP.

If Bolly works all its mines after it grows (2 turns) and we finish Construction (next turn) then it'll have 16 hpt, or 17 if we run a priest (which I'd like, to increase the odds of a Prophet). That's 1 cat (50 hammers) every 3 turns. Drona could do nearly the same, but kcd suggested we keep it on the AP (about 13 turns using an OrgRel chop, but running Theoc after that). How do others feel? We really don't want to lose the AP so I guess that's best.

Delhi is building a settler. If we wait one turn it can 2-whip with 23 overflow next turn. It has only 2 hpt so we'll have to whip it again after several turns of growth to get a cat. I think settling another city would be a good idea and like the hill E of the bananas. It could take the FP or corn from Bolly (which is growing too fast anyway) to get started. If Bombay finishes its missionary (4 turns) then we can send it to the new city so its borders will pop soonish and the WB can net the clams--then it'll really take off and we can work the quarried marble and whip. We're probably going to be at war for awhile so I'd like to make the investment now even though it won't pay off for a bit.

Bombay has 4 hpt and 1 forest but little growth. I'd let Vijay (which has a granary) keep the deer, let it grow, and whip it until it can't stand any more and then give the deer to Bombay--maybe do a 1-whip on Bombay for a cat. Holy Cow has a lot of whip potential--I'd whip a granary first and then cats. It can 1-whip the granary next turn--perfectly timed with a 1/2-full food bin!

Assuming Drona stays on the AP, in 10 turns we can have 3 cats from Bolly, maybe 2 from Vijay, 1 from Bombay, 1 or 2 from Delhi, and 2 (?) from Holy Cow. It'll take a few turns to assemble the far away units, so say we get another cat from Bolly, so around 10. We currently have 5 axes in Drona, 4 in Bolly, and 4 in Vijay. Figure we can put 8 of those into the fight if we add a couple archers into the queue at the end to defend our frontiers? This is a rough (probably slightly optimistic) guess but we should be in shape to attack in around a dozen turns. If we don't need to save Bolly's forests we could chop those, too, and add another 2 cats or equivalent. Don't do it right away because we want to stay in OrgRel for a few more turns. If Bolly is the first city to finish units (i.e., driving when we need to revolt to Theoc) then switch from a cat before it finishes to an axe. Heck, you could do the same trick in other cities, too, adding an axe or archer.

 

[Deckhand]

We should keep Drona on AP. We are committed to not losing that race. And it might let us keep the corn.

 

[kcd_swede]

Finally looked at the game. Hattie not only has Alpha and Aesth, (s)he has Meditation, Sailing, IW, and Construction. Drona's corn is 36% Japanese; I don't know when we started to lose ground but it probably won't be long before it's gone. It's 9 turns to grow, so in reality Drona will probably be stuck at this pop for awhile--16 hpt. While we're in OrgRel I'd have a FW chop that forest 3N1E next turn toward the AP. Revolt to Theoc only when we're about to finish unit(s) somewhere--OrgRel gives us an extra 4 hpt for the AP.

If Bolly works all its mines after it grows (2 turns) and we finish Construction (next turn) then it'll have 16 hpt, or 17 if we run a priest (which I'd like, to increase the odds of a Prophet). That's 1 cat (50 hammers) every 3 turns. Drona could do nearly the same, but kcd suggested we keep it on the AP (about 13 turns using an OrgRel chop, but running Theoc after that). How do others feel? We really don't want to lose the AP so I guess that's best.

Delhi is building a settler. If we wait one turn it can 2-whip with 23 overflow next turn. It has only 2 hpt so we'll have to whip it again after several turns of growth to get a cat. I think settling another city would be a good idea and like the hill E of the bananas. It could take the FP or corn from Bolly (which is growing too fast anyway) to get started. If Bombay finishes its missionary (4 turns) then we can send it to the new city so its borders will pop soonish and the WB can net the clams--then it'll really take off and we can work the quarried marble and whip. We're probably going to be at war for awhile so I'd like to make the investment now even though it won't pay off for a bit.

Bombay has 4 hpt and 1 forest but little growth. I'd let Vijay (which has a granary) keep the deer, let it grow, and whip it until it can't stand any more and then give the deer to Bombay--maybe do a 1-whip on Bombay for a cat. Holy Cow has a lot of whip potential--I'd whip a granary first and then cats. It can 1-whip the granary next turn--perfectly timed with a 1/2-full food bin!

Assuming Drona stays on the AP, in 10 turns we can have 3 cats from Bolly, maybe 2 from Vijay, 1 from Bombay, 1 or 2 from Delhi, and 2 (?) from Holy Cow. It'll take a few turns to assemble the far away units, so say we get another cat from Bolly, so around 10. We currently have 5 axes in Drona, 4 in Bolly, and 4 in Vijay. Figure we can put 8 of those into the fight if we add a couple archers into the queue at the end to defend our frontiers? This is a rough (probably slightly optimistic) guess but we should be in shape to attack in around a dozen turns. If we don't need to save Bolly's forests we could chop those, too, and add another 2 cats or equivalent. Don't do it right away because we want to stay in OrgRel for a few more turns. If Bolly is the first city to finish units (i.e., driving when we need to revolt to Theoc) then switch from a cat before it finishes to an axe. Heck, you could do the same trick in other cities, too, adding an axe or archer.

We should keep Drona on AP. We are committed to not losing that race. And it might let us keep the corn.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Just in case Toku gets horses hooked up (he's still settling cities) we should build a spear or two.

When may AAA play? Play, AAA, play! (After prudently preparing a PPP and resolving any lingering questions.)