SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[Htadus]

Ok. If we are that worried about loosing Hindu we have no other choice.

But I will say this anyways for the record. In the last SG, I asked if anyone is willing to climb the PH north of our settling spot and it was ignored. One team did and they got sheep deer and gems in the BFC and CS sling as a gift. Sadly they chose culture VC.

I do agree that those who dare can loose but...

 

[zamint3]

The high number of the GNP was really odd so i rolled a map with the given settings and simulated a bit. The high GNP average is due to the fact that all the enemy caps are pre-settled which i think everybody realised by now.
The rival-best number of 37 has to be the AI-Team, but they fell short of the number with just their two caps. So i added the mahabodi to the AI-Team, which still isn't enough. Besides the unknown starting locations which could add 1 or 2 points dependent on the tiles they work there are three possibilities to get to 37 i believe:

1. Every pre settled city is already in Buddhism.

2. No pre settled city besides the AI-Team is in Buddhism but they compensate with some culture buildings like monasteries, temples, maybe monuments.

3. A mixture of both.

My money is on 1 right now

I compared our start to SGotm14 (with teams), and there were no higher GNP than usual (without teams) so I think they are counted separately!
Holy City + Mahabodi + 8 cities with Buddhism should bring +17 GNP-points! - So I agree with #1

Also the number of soldiers are a bit higher than usual. This could indicate prebuilt walls or barracks! (Edit: or some techs, can you make the AI beeline something tech wise to avoid them researching Poly?)

I'm leaning more and more towards cultural VC

Regarding settling: I think neil would allow for some teams to settle T2-T3 without risking to loose Poly. I like 1E but sure would like to see the view from that marble hill...

 

[leif erikson]

Good discussion.

Have to say, given the marble and stone, have to wonder if culture is possible. We could build a gang of wonders in one city. However, having said that, hard for me to believe culture would beat military. Maybe it depends on isolation.

Not that I am advocating for culture victory...

My understanding is that the key to culture victory is not necessarily what you build. It is the commerce generate that you can turn into culture via the slider, getting to Drama and building culture. All the rest doesn't hurt, but is not critical. Getting
as many religions as possible and building Cathedrals, or whatever they are named by religion, create needed multipliers for the culture building phase.

Getting AP fits nicely into this as we could gain Hinduism and Christianity, while picking up Buddhism from our opponents.

Wonder how successful we could be in converting some of our opponents to Hindu? Might be a nice way to make some allies.

Back to the start, it seems like 1E, just want to make sure we consider Htadus' proposal.

edit - CP. I think we are both working from the same place with map setup.

This is from the SGOTM15 Discussion thread:

What happens if one AI goes for Hindu before...instant loss!

That is correct, so you probably want to research Polytheism quickly.

edit2 - and this:

What its trying to say is that you don't want to take any risk in founding it, and you should start immediately. It is a binary event.

As long as you found Hinduism, revolt, and stay Hindu for the rest of the game (that means no Free Religion btw), then you can do it when you please... but it would be foolish to delay. This does not mean that you have to settle on turn 0, it just means don't faff about.

To make it very clear: you cannot conquer the city that founded Hindu to fulfill this requirement, it must be founded in a city you settle.

We probably have 2 to 4 turns to decide, if we wish?

 

[Undecided]

Also the number of soldiers are a bit higher than usual. This could indicate prebuilt walls or barracks!

The AI could just start with more archers or something like that.

We probably have 2 to 4 turns to decide, if we wish?

The probably is the problem. If this wasn't a binary event, the settler would already looking down from that marble hill i think.

 

[Undecided]

I'm not a micro expert, but i get the first settler out turn 35. Could be faster if we choose to tech BW that early. Settling 1E. Warrior first was faster than worker first. Would be nice if someone could verify this. Never done these micro-plans extensively before.

Hypothetical: On marble but stay their regardless of land to save 1 turn because of poly risk.

First settler will be out faster (T33) if we work the forest for the first few turns. This would delay poly for one turn (T14).
Worker first.

If we don't work the forest but the wet grass we get the settler out on T34 and Poly on T13.
Also worker first in this case.
Techpath in marble case was poly-agri-tw-hunting because of the site 1W of deer. In the real map this could change of course.

Other observations:

- The Team-AI gets a GProphet around T20 because of the mahabodhi. I don't know exactly what they would do with this because they have a shrine already. It could lead to a fast priesthood, mono, monarchy or theology (if they are programmed to hold on long to it long enough) in the worst case.

- Unsurprisingly, i got a personal record in the category "worst-enemy" before T50, however it fluctuates a fair bit. With the right AIs this could be easier than expected.

- "Christianity found in a distant land" (before T35 )
Needless to say i was shocked when this thing popped up but i'm almost sure this is a problem of having buddhism in the pre-settled cities. If the first AI techs to meditation they found a religion but can choose the name of it. Only checked this with med though. Don't know if this happens at every other religious tech yet. This could make it difficult to see if for example theo was just founded or not.

 

[The-Hawk]

This would delay poly for one turn (T14).

This will be another risk decision in our early micro... do we go full throttle for Poly or do we delay to speed earlier worker.

- "Christianity found in a distant land" (before T35 )

Just to be clear, in your test, you did not give the AI's Medi? I.e. just gave them Buddhism and the Shrine via WB? If so, this is a bit startling. As I said before, I am not convinced we should build AP. But it would really suck if we tried for it and missed!

 

[Undecided]

Just to be clear, in your test, you did not give the AI's Medi? I.e. just gave them Buddhism and the Shrine via WB? If so, this is a bit startling. As I said before, I am not convinced we should build AP. But it would really suck if we tried for it and missed!

Exactly, but this doesn't mean that theology is discovered. Just that one AI has reached Meditation or Monotheism and can decide how they call their newfound religion.
Hope that makes it clear, if there were any misunderstandings in the first place.

 

[leif erikson]

Just to be clear, in your test, you did not give the AI's Medi? I.e. just gave them Buddhism and the Shrine via WB? If so, this is a bit startling. As I said before, I am not convinced we should build AP. But it would really suck if we tried for it and missed!

If all of our opponents already are Buddhists and one of them builds the AP, we could be in a hurt and earn an AP loss. Our only hope would be to get Theology and switch to Theocracy to prevent the spread of Buddhism to us since all civilization must have the AP religion for there to be victory. If we meet a civ before we are in Theocracy, then we must keep borders closed and pray that we do not gain Buddhism.

It seems to me that we nearly have to try for AP?

edit - will try to do some testing this afternoon/evening. Can someone post a common test save so that we can compare results? Otherwise, I'll make one up before playing.

 

[Undecided]

I could upload my general test-save.
There were a couple of "lion-accidents" in WB which gave diplo contact with 3 AIs (one of the is the Team) though. On the other hand, everything is already presettled and buddhism is spread so you could also use it to try some things with the specific settings.

 

[leif erikson]

Sure, you should post it.

In the setup, did you give Meditation to the Civs as well, or just Buddhism? What about Mysticism? Seems that would put us in a hole? 9 AI civs, one 2-civ team, with Mahabodhi?

 

[Htadus]

Did I miss choose religion option for this game or was that a boo boo?

 

[leif erikson]

Did I miss choose religion option for this game or was that a boo boo?

That kind of confused me too?

Here is what the game announcement says:

Options: Well, LOTS. Lets see, there's: No City Razing, City Flip After Conquest, Aggressive AI, No Tech Brokering, No Vassal States, No Goody Huts, No Events, Unrestricted Leaders.

 

[Undecided]

9 AI; One Team; Mahabodi is under Team ownership for now, could be changed of course. Only regular starting techs. No Civ with mysticism, random leaders.

 

[Htadus]

So no choose religion. Phew. That would mess us up too much. So someone got Mono pretty fast in undecided's game. No big deal=No buddhist league in the game.

I am still sure AP will win this SG but I am ready to aim for a war game as in domination or a old style diplo game.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Htadus, why are you sure that AP will win the game when it seems the map maker has taken steps to make that harder than usual?

 

[Htadus]

Htadus, why are you sure that AP will win the game when it seems the map maker has taken steps to make that harder than usual?

Because there are creative players out there (too many to name) who know the ins and outs of AP.

AP only need one AI as our friend to vote us in.
All it take is a city gift with our religion to make an AI a member.
If it require optics, then we give that AI a gift of tech to make then OB with us.
It only take one Ai who does not found his/her own religion, for us to infect all the cities for them to change religion without us asking for it. This is the frind we need.
then we need an enemy our friend also dislike on our shared land.

I got to go. End of lunch.

 

[leif erikson]

Had some time at lunch, so here is a test game. I think I got it right?

Please check it and let me know if there is a problem.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks, leif. I'll try to find some time to test first builds and techs.

If the map maker knows all that Htadus asserts, then what else might he have done to add to the challenge?

 

[Undecided]

Please check it and let me know if there is a problem.

Don't know how important it is for this test save in particular but if we're planning on using it for longer you might want to change the sealevel to low and climate to tropical because the actual game is set up this way.

Otherwise it looks good

 

[zamint3]

Had some time at lunch, so here is a test game. I think I got it right?

Please check it and let me know if there is a problem.

A few details:

1. Hill W of stone should not be fresh water
2. N of mountain is another mountain
3. It's flat N of stone
4. Should be grass forest N-NW of deer
5. Should be grass hill S-SW of corn
6. Should be forest E of Mountain

Don't know how important it is for this test save in particular but if we're planning on using it for longer you might want to change the sealevel to low and climate to tropical because the actual game is set up this way.

Can you do this without starting all over?

- and how do you team up 2 AI?

Edit: @Undecided: Map looks good, would very much appreciate BUFFY-MOD...