Need to find worker turns to improve tiles for our third city.
Out of town and out of touch tomorrow.
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Out of town and out of touch tomorrow.
Mad Professor
Deity
I was about to build one in Delhi following the Settler.
Amazing. You're right. Probably not enough turns for another one in Bombay now before Oracle unless we want to use a chop on it? I need to work out how many hammers from what chop which turn will go to what in Bombay over the next few turns. My idea to this point has simply been pre-chop for oracle. Time to get more specific before playing on. What about another one in Delhi after the current one?
Perhaps not developing the stone immediately is better also? Particularly if there's going to be a couple of workers coming out of Delhi - stone tile won'e be needed for a while?
Warriors have moved a little to improve fogbusting, one still has a short walk to go westward. I think the northern most Warrior should move onto the choke point forest NW, and the Warrior at Bombay could move inside culture border onto sheep. Fogbusting is great, and should the Barbs spawn a city on one of the few not revealed tiles, it won't matter much. Btw: Did you see any barb activity?
Questions for discussion:
1. Where exactly should the settler go?
2. What to tech for now? Wheel? We're already ten beakers into that thanks to me
1. Agree with CP: Settler onto forest N of gems
2. Wheel - Priesthood - Pottery (Binary research unless we can squeeze one in a turn earlier
)With copper secured (all though under the capital
) I see no urgent need for city 4 and I think we should focus on early Mids.Delhi: Worker - Mids (one turn of ToA until stone is connected)
I would switch Bombay to worker and 1-pop whip in 4 turns.
Worker actions: I would put both workers on stone, one of them should follow the settler and start improving the pig on the turn (T56) when city 3 is founded, the other should finish stone T58. Worker from Delhi should road grass, connecting stone T58. Worker from Bombay should mine grass hill. (Hope the math was right
)After that it's roading and prechopping.
And we should switch to Slavery now.
My 2 cents !
Curious why when we can found the city 1N and 1 NW of the Gems, chop the forest into a Monument and have more production to build units or ships?
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
It would be helpful to me if we step back and revisit the big picture:
From these considerations, my gut tells me we need to emphasize prod in our early cities. We have to expect war and our best hope for fast research is that our neighbors have some good GP and cottage sites. Based on that:
Maybe there is a sliver of goodness buried in all of that mapmaker evilness.
- We've concluded AP is required. Plan is to Oracle MC to allow a forge to get a GE to rush AP. Unfortunately, this means early war rush is probably out of the question.
- We have to assume early war. Hopefully we will initiate it as a way to REX. More likely, it will be thrust upon us. What will be our units of choice? The time for Axe rush will be passed and we have no horses. What tech do we beeline to make war? Clearly Construction, but what else? Swords? Maces? Xbows? These guys are not going to trade with us, so even IW would need to be researched.
- Long term, we will have AP and can consider AP vote as victory condition. However, it seems like a stretch given all the Togu clones. I expect Dom will be the way to go.
- Research is looking like a real challenge. We do not have an early GP site and tech trading might be non-existent. With Oracle and AP (and maybe Mids), we are going to get Prophets (or Engineers). How do we get early Astonomy (assuming it is needed) without GS bulbs? Do we emphasize cottages? How do we balance cottages against imminent war?
From these considerations, my gut tells me we need to emphasize prod in our early cities. We have to expect war and our best hope for fast research is that our neighbors have some good GP and cottage sites. Based on that:
z said:
It would have been funny to watch you deal with 2 WHEEORN Toku's armed only with Warriors and harsh language, but that would be just too evil.
Maybe there is a sliver of goodness buried in all of that mapmaker evilness.
There is another consideration for 'mids and Representation and that is the three happiness we get running Rep. Not seeing how we are going to get lux'es by trade and to gain good production, we will need to grow cities. The Forge with Gold and Gems helps for sure, but would like to see larger cities than that, also gives a cushion if we need to whip some defense quickly.
Also think we need to get out with a Fishing Boat and check our surroundings. That comes with a coastal city next and, with the need for production, the idea to settle 1N+!NW of Gem. Gives us hills and access to the sea.
Also think we need to get out with a Fishing Boat and check our surroundings. That comes with a coastal city next and, with the need for production, the idea to settle 1N+!NW of Gem. Gives us hills and access to the sea.
Isn't 1N and 1NW of the gems on the pig?
Don't think we need a monument, hopefully we'll have Hinduism spread pretty soon.
Agree that #2 site (1N+1NE of gems) is better longterm, but it'll take much longer to set up. 1NE of gems not being coastal is a problem I think.
Note that Bombay will grow fast once Oracle is built, Toku already farmed the corn.
It will be a great city until Toku comes marching.
Isn't 1N and 1NW of the gems on the pig?
There I go confusing my east and west. 
You're right, of course.
Hadn't thought of that.Don't think we need a monument, hopefully we'll have Hinduism spread pretty soon.
1NE would be acceptable if we build a fort to create a canal to the city, but we lose that tile for the game.
Better get some Axes built...Note that Bombay will grow fast once Oracle is built, Toku already farmed the corn.
It will be a great city until Toku comes marching.
Took a quick look at the save:
1. We need worker out of bombay and the grass hill improved as soon as possible.
After oracle it could start building baracks and axes, with one settler as soon as we get the corn tile from osaka.
We should also consider that we might even flip osaka and the possible fallout that could come from that.
2. Dehli is the only place where we can get the mids in a very safe time window. This will delay our attack time quite a bit. While i'm a huge fan of 'mids, we should discuss the building of the wonder after getting oracle. There are some strong arguments against it in the current position. For example, Toku has BW now for ~20 Turns and metal units (or chariots for that matter) are nowhere to be seen.
3. Regarding the 3rd city site, i'd like to get the pigs in the first ring atleast to get the city up and running in a good time frame. Other sites should be discussed if we made up our mind about the course of action against Toku.
4. I assume the currently selected warrior is going 2S to look for more seafood in the area. If not he should and then go east and fogbust near the fish until bombay gets a border pop.
5. Techpath Wheel->Priesthood->Pottery looks good. After that we have a lot of options. Agree with hawk that construction is important. I thought that alpha might be pretty good, but we'll see. Fishing/sailing will be mandatory in the near future imo.
Pretty busy next week but i should be able to keep up with the discussion.
1. We need worker out of bombay and the grass hill improved as soon as possible.
After oracle it could start building baracks and axes, with one settler as soon as we get the corn tile from osaka.
We should also consider that we might even flip osaka and the possible fallout that could come from that.
2. Dehli is the only place where we can get the mids in a very safe time window. This will delay our attack time quite a bit. While i'm a huge fan of 'mids, we should discuss the building of the wonder after getting oracle. There are some strong arguments against it in the current position. For example, Toku has BW now for ~20 Turns and metal units (or chariots for that matter) are nowhere to be seen.
3. Regarding the 3rd city site, i'd like to get the pigs in the first ring atleast to get the city up and running in a good time frame. Other sites should be discussed if we made up our mind about the course of action against Toku.
4. I assume the currently selected warrior is going 2S to look for more seafood in the area. If not he should and then go east and fogbust near the fish until bombay gets a border pop.
5. Techpath Wheel->Priesthood->Pottery looks good. After that we have a lot of options. Agree with hawk that construction is important. I thought that alpha might be pretty good, but we'll see. Fishing/sailing will be mandatory in the near future imo.
Pretty busy next week but i should be able to keep up with the discussion.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Leif, I leave today for a week long business trip and may well be gone again next week. I won't be able to follow MP.
By the way, an observation. It feels to me like we are seeing relatively low testing/analysis/discussion given the amount of time passing between turnsets. Unfortunately, it appears several of us (myself included) are having RL conflicts at the same time. I suspect this does not bode well for our chances to finish high in the standings, especially since it is happening in the critical early turnsets.
Yes, I have been flat out as well. Too much going on at the moment for me too.By the way, an observation. It feels to me like we are seeing relatively low testing/analysis/discussion given the amount of time passing between turnsets. Unfortunately, it appears several of us (myself included) are having RL conflicts at the same time. I suspect this does not bode well for our chances to finish high in the standings, especially since it is happening in the critical early turnsets.
I think we may also be floundering a bit for direction as this game is quite different, so it seems harder to figure out what it is we need to test? Any suggestions in how to improve this?
I'll adjust the roster. Hope you have a good trip.
Updated Roster:
Mad Professor - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
The-Hawk
Cactus Pete
Htadus
leif
Undecided
Mad Professor - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
The-Hawk
Cactus Pete
Htadus
leif
Undecided
Are you saying that you don't think Toku has any military resources and we should hit him hard asap?
Are you saying that you don't think Toku has any military resources and we should hit him hard asap?
Was a sudden realisation while looking at the save. Of course now that i jinxed it, Toku might get iron hooked up in the next couple turns.
But all kidding aside. Toku had to go AH at some point because he has the sheep inside his borders and improved and i never saw a chariot so i'm fairly sure that he has no access to horses.
Same for copper, Toku with no axes or spears so long after switching into slavery? That's atleast suspicious.
I don't really know when Emp-AIs tech IW, so i'm not doing any guesswork on that (yet).
In any case, it's a possibility we should consider. Even if we have to tech to construction because Axes aren't looking that hot against Toku archers.
Absolutely.
If we have to research to Construction, are 'mids not a possibility? Or do we need to raise an army of Axes while we tech?
Concur with Wheel>Prhd>Pot, W2 south to check out possible seafood, and revolt to Slavery now.
"1. Settler onto forest N of gems I'm not so sure about this. While it will be coastal, unless iron shows up, this will be a weak prod city. True, arguing that it is the best of flawed choices -- better short term, worse long term, and short term seems critical. I suppose we could build cottages and specialize it on commerce [A farm and a lths would also make it more useful over time.], but with imminent war, I think we need several prod cities. Concur. I am leaning towards Htadus' recommendation of 1NE of gems. This brings 3 additional hills into the city, the pigs provide food to work them. We lose the coast, but city 4 will be coastal. That seems problematic. Not sure best site is coastal.
2. Wheel - Priesthood - Pottery (Binary research unless we can squeeze one in a turn earlier ) Agree
With copper secured (all though under the capital ) I see no urgent need for city 4 and I think we should focus on early Mids. I'm not sure I agree with this either. I think city 4 is a very good site. Like gems, it can be a good prod city (along with the commerce boost from gold). I'm not sold on Mids. Which civic do we want to run? Indeed, and an axe rush on Japan should still be considered in Vanilla. Is it a non-starter in BtS? We do not have a GP farm site, so I think representation is not needed. If Mids is required for the GE for the AP, then maybe this is OK. However, I'm not sure we need to rush AP. Its not like we will be running missionaries around in the BC's to get an AP vote. As long as we beat the AI's to it, we are fine. Maybe a forge-bult GE will be fast enough. Unless we are sure its required for AP, I would not build Mids (or at least not until we get city 4 settled and a few more workers out Strongly agree with this and would add an axe or two.).
Delhi: Worker - Mids (one turn of ToA until stone is connected) I think another worker, then a settler Or perhaps an axe nearly completed and whipped into a settler that is completed by chopping.
I would switch Bombay to worker and 1-pop whip in 4 turns. Agree, we need workers badly" Yes, we do.
Also, perhaps whipping an axe with overflow into the Oracle should eventually be part of the plan
"1. Settler onto forest N of gems I'm not so sure about this. While it will be coastal, unless iron shows up, this will be a weak prod city. True, arguing that it is the best of flawed choices -- better short term, worse long term, and short term seems critical. I suppose we could build cottages and specialize it on commerce [A farm and a lths would also make it more useful over time.], but with imminent war, I think we need several prod cities. Concur. I am leaning towards Htadus' recommendation of 1NE of gems. This brings 3 additional hills into the city, the pigs provide food to work them. We lose the coast, but city 4 will be coastal. That seems problematic. Not sure best site is coastal.
2. Wheel - Priesthood - Pottery (Binary research unless we can squeeze one in a turn earlier ) Agree
With copper secured (all though under the capital ) I see no urgent need for city 4 and I think we should focus on early Mids. I'm not sure I agree with this either. I think city 4 is a very good site. Like gems, it can be a good prod city (along with the commerce boost from gold). I'm not sold on Mids. Which civic do we want to run? Indeed, and an axe rush on Japan should still be considered in Vanilla. Is it a non-starter in BtS? We do not have a GP farm site, so I think representation is not needed. If Mids is required for the GE for the AP, then maybe this is OK. However, I'm not sure we need to rush AP. Its not like we will be running missionaries around in the BC's to get an AP vote. As long as we beat the AI's to it, we are fine. Maybe a forge-bult GE will be fast enough. Unless we are sure its required for AP, I would not build Mids (or at least not until we get city 4 settled and a few more workers out Strongly agree with this and would add an axe or two.).
Delhi: Worker - Mids (one turn of ToA until stone is connected) I think another worker, then a settler Or perhaps an axe nearly completed and whipped into a settler that is completed by chopping.
I would switch Bombay to worker and 1-pop whip in 4 turns. Agree, we need workers badly" Yes, we do.
Also, perhaps whipping an axe with overflow into the Oracle should eventually be part of the plan
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Maybe this is the source of my discomfort. Neil did a good job of putting us out of our comfort zone
. I'm also out of my zone with this AP beeline... I almost never do it, so I have no feel for the trade-offs (e.g. do we need the mids to get a GE in time).I guess the best thing we can do is keep the ideas flowing and discuss them thoroughly. Also, I think posting good pre-turn plans will help us stay focused on which decisions need to be made.
leif said:
So given the desire to make gem city coastal, I think we should go with leif's suggestion (site 2 in the original dot map). I think it is a better site than 1N of gems, although it will need a chopped monument to become productive (unless we get that religion spread z mentioned). Initially I was worried about health, but with the resource we have, I think we can support 5 citizens (I can't open the game, can someone confirm?) This would allow us to work pigs, gems, and three mined hills.
Undecided said:
Good observation. If you are right about this, we might consider taking a rush at him. I wish we could scout his land. Can we snoop around his borders, maybe climb some hills?
CP said:
I'm not sure. Rushing in BtS is definitely harder because the AIs will whip defenders. If Undecided is right about metal and horses, then this may yet be an option. My comment was mostly based on the need to divert hammers into Oracle, Mids, and AP. Typically, axe rush requires single minded buildup of axemen (whipped, chopped, etc.) with no hammers diverted to wonders or buildings (other than Rax).
CP said:
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Building a few axes serves several purposes. We increase our power which might discourage a Togu DOW. If he does DOW, we are ready. It also leaves the possibility of an Axe rush open.
leif said:Hope you have a good trip.
Just occurred to me, I'm almost in your neck of the woods. I am in Hartford tonight and tomorrow night, then making stops at Stamford, Weehawken, Jersey City and Princeton over the week on my way back to Philly. I was pleasantly surprised to find no snow when I drove up today.
Neil will be happy to hear this.Maybe this is the source of my discomfort. Neil did a good job of putting us out of our comfort zone
edit - still concerned about happiness. How much is that worth considering 'mids for?
Last weekend I was up in Amherst delivering my daughter back to UMass, a couple of hours before the riots after the Super Bowl.
The storm really fizzled. We were supposed to get 3 to 6 inches or so, but the ground is bare. My wife is not happy as she loves the snow. Oh well, at least I didn't have to shovel.
Mad Professor
Deity
Speaking of RL.... 
Had a couple of days I didn't expect.
I think over the next few days though I'm ready to continue a few more turns. I'll try and get a plan for those "next few turns" up soon so you can all tell me where it needs changing.
Had a couple of days I didn't expect.I think over the next few days though I'm ready to continue a few more turns. I'll try and get a plan for those "next few turns" up soon so you can all tell me where it needs changing.
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