Certainly not before the break when we see whether we have copper - that decision can be left for later.
SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Certainly not before the break when we see whether we have copper - that decision can be left for later.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
Green light from me. Finish your mini-turnset right after BW is in, so we can still decide on next tech.
Later, warrior should continue exploring south, but it should get there through the Orleans spot for two reasons: more protection from hills compared to desert route, and some fogbusting for the later city.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Green light from me
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
I'm good with it.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Green light!
As you know, you can select any tech you like and change it when you start again.
Same for civics, we can decide that when you restart, thus go on!
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Well, in my test the revolt ASAP was a good option. I explain.
Paris needs to grow and start the settler as soon as it reaches size 3.
We need the road in the forest SW, otherwise we continue to lose moves. If you build the road then farm the FP, Paris does not grow faster (it grows before the farm can be completed), but produces the settler faster.
The plan i used was: road - farm FP - chop - mine the hill in 2 separate tasks.
If we revolt ASAP to slavery, the benefit for Paris is more sensible for the farm and for the chop too. Then we can decide if whip the settler or not, but this is matter for the TS after this one.
The reasoning is that while Paris is in revolt, the worker continues his job.
Then, Mastiff's test makes me even more convinced of my strategy. Oracle on turn 57 is absolutely safe and the sacrifice is just a few turns of delay for Alpha.
BTW, it comes in mind some big sacrifices FE made in the past to achieve a CS sling (and we were first many times on that, but we gained only one bronze). Your strategy for writing first, ZPV, makes me think that we risk to put ourselves in the same position as if we were trying a CS sling. Sacrifice growth for research. With our cheap libraries and forges we can quickly recover those few turns, but with a free tech in the bag. And in the meantime our cities will grow, i don't care if slowly and with poor land.
Once Folket completes his 2 turns i will quickly play some other test, arriving until Alpha is in.
As you know, you can select any tech you like and change it when you start again.
Same for civics, we can decide that when you restart, thus go on!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, in my test the revolt ASAP was a good option. I explain.
Paris needs to grow and start the settler as soon as it reaches size 3.
We need the road in the forest SW, otherwise we continue to lose moves. If you build the road then farm the FP, Paris does not grow faster (it grows before the farm can be completed), but produces the settler faster.
The plan i used was: road - farm FP - chop - mine the hill in 2 separate tasks.
If we revolt ASAP to slavery, the benefit for Paris is more sensible for the farm and for the chop too. Then we can decide if whip the settler or not, but this is matter for the TS after this one.
The reasoning is that while Paris is in revolt, the worker continues his job.
Then, Mastiff's test makes me even more convinced of my strategy. Oracle on turn 57 is absolutely safe and the sacrifice is just a few turns of delay for Alpha.
BTW, it comes in mind some big sacrifices FE made in the past to achieve a CS sling (and we were first many times on that, but we gained only one bronze). Your strategy for writing first, ZPV, makes me think that we risk to put ourselves in the same position as if we were trying a CS sling. Sacrifice growth for research. With our cheap libraries and forges we can quickly recover those few turns, but with a free tech in the bag. And in the meantime our cities will grow, i don't care if slowly and with poor land.
Once Folket completes his 2 turns i will quickly play some other test, arriving until Alpha is in.
The usual "time to revolt to slavery" is while the settler is walking to its site (since that is the time when you are doing the most stuff that carries on during anarchy) - but if you need to whip the settler this isn't possible.
Road->Farm->Chop-then-mine doesn't found Orleans any earlier than Mine->Chop->Farm, but does lose out a worker turn, and essentially one turn of growth in Paris too (you get 6 overflow hammers, rather than 7 food and 2 hammers or 10h in a worker).
The road is not of such importance going forward. It helps most for moving to Orleans's site, but for other sites the half-turn of movement (compared with chopping a relevant forest which we'll do anyway) isn't so obviously significant that we have to invest in it now.
@Folket: is your plan to move onto the clear plains hill NW of the corn, and start a mine there?
We'll compare more accurately later, (e.g. on what is the right balance of expansion and research, and how the cost of 327 beakers + 150 Industrious hammers for a tech fits into that) but there's one point that really stands out for me:
You want to build cities where we can't improve the resources soon. I think that needs more justification than "long-term growth". We could grow faster in the short to mid term by researching faster, founding the cities a little later as a consequence, but working the food resources sooner because we have the tech for them.
edit: for those old games, it should never have been "do the CS sling as quickly as possible." It's "do the CS sling with as much growth/development as possible", because CS is a powerful economic tech so growth will inevitably be weaker than the economy can support.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Well, that's a bummer.
We should be able to get away with warriors. AH isn't exactly guaranteed because we'd need horses. (If we did have horses though, we just need to connect them, and the barbs will go attack someone resourceless if they can).
The reasonable limit (i.e. without making unreasonable sacrifices in the name of shaving off a turn) seems to be t61-2 (meaning the free tech screen is at the start of t62).
It might be possible to push it back to t60-1 by building and working a cottage instead of the mine (taking hammers out of worker #3), or by lining up two whips' worth of overflow into the Oracle, but I decided that wasn't worth it.
Note: in this save the worker turns are still a bit minced - there is a prechopped forest and they are a bit out of position.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Early on, Paris built Settler at size 3,-> revolt to slavery -> Worker (whip for 1 pop after 3 turns) -> Warriors until Writing, then a Library. The second worker's first task was to mine the plains forest hill, chopping into the library. The first worker went mine->>chop the grass river forest->farm the FP---> build two farms for Orleans.
So long as the warrior is second in the queue when the settler/worker are completed, it doesn't count as a turn "not being built" where the warrior would start to decay. Similarly it can be placed first in the queue during anarchy.
Orleans grew to size 4 at max food, building warriors, then a settler.
Then the late stuff:
Orleans builds the settler to 69/100 (which is not a big loss MMwise - you spend 1 turn building something else), then whips for two pop on the turn before Priesthood comes in. Three chops in two turns are needed - one on the last turn of the settler, with Worker A, who then moves to a prechopped forest, to chop on the second turn of the Oracle, and one chop from Worker B on a convenient turn.
Aside from that, there are some worker turns free to play with (e.g. for building the sheep-fish farm, or cottages, or mines, or something) and optimizing where the workers are positioned.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
That looks like a good plan. I vote for that.
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