SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BSPollux]

Yes I checked it oput. Just that we can n ot gain any more info from playing that file, as everything new from there is a guess.

 

[BLubmuz]

I got many ideas about this game, but i'll post them later. For what i can see now, i think the coastal site is better than an inland one, unless the warrior reveals something. Being Normal speed we can invest 1 turn on moving the settler, 2 starts be too much.

Then, unless we find something in the fog, i doubt a CS sling will be possible.
On the same reasoning, i think we need to move the Capital when we find a good commerce/production city. That start is really terrible. Something to regenerate the map, if it would be a solo game.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Can anyone else see what might be 2N of the settler? It almost looks like the ground is beginning to rise. Is it a hill, or am I seeing things?

Also, won't a food city (fish and corn) be a good start for workers and settlers? Is it good enough to end up as a GP farm after we clear the forests while making a wonder? (I beat the AI to the GL on deity in the BGTOM with a similar start.) Perhaps build Nat Epic and Globe?

Just some thoughts while I'm at work.

EDIT: Maybe cottage it up for a commerce city once the capital is moved.

 

[unclethrill]

Summary of first 2 tests: Both SIP


SIP
Warrior-worker-warrior-settler-library-warrior-warrior-worker
T47 Second City
T66 Third Settler
4 warriors, 2 workers
Research: AH -> writing -> Alphabet (2 more turns)
Oracle lost on T66

SIP
Mining -> Pottery->Writing-> Myst ->Priest -> CoL
Worker->warrior(3 turns left)->Settler ->Finish warrior -> Lib
T42 – Second City
T58 – Stonehenge
T71 – Oracle lost. 5 turns to CoL and still needed math
(Only reason as close as I was to CoL was a pop of gems on the North Hill after I had mined it)


Will try a couple runs at settle 1 SE tomorrow if I have time but in general I have to agree with BLubmuz that unless something really nice is found in the fog, CS may be unreachable with the Oracle.

 

[BSPollux]

Then, unless we find something in the fog, i doubt a CS sling will be possible.

As we are not playing CiV CS is not 'CityState'. But what does it mean and what is a 'CS Sling'?

Edit:
The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to vote for warrior->1N instead of Warrior->1SW.
Setteling the capital right between the corn and the fish might be an option if there was another hill or a seares hidden in the fog.
First turn could be Warrior->1N, Settler->1SE.
Second turn would be Warrior->1N or ->1NW. If that reveals something valuable then settler->1NE+settle, else settle where it stands.
I'm hoping to see a hill above the corn and clam/fish N or NW from the eastern forrest at the coast.

 

[ZPV]

That we lose the fish and that we wont find another well-fitting spot for a city that uses it. In fact I fear that we will have the same problem in the south as well. Very likely that we'll end up with unuseable spare land east and south of our capital.

I hate settling close to the sea. I either settle at the sea of inland, not one step away

Overlapping cities aren't a problem - each city doesn't have to have 21 tiles for itself to be worthwhile. A city 3 tiles away costs very little maintenance, while still providing full early-game usefulness. You typically won't work all 20 tiles in a city until very late, so there's no reason not to share.

As we are not playing CiV CS is not 'CityState'. But what does it mean and what is a 'CS Sling'?

CS is Civil Service - it unlocks the very powerful civic Bureaucracy (+50% hammers and commerce in the capital). It's part of the reason the capital site is so important for research. (Add to this the single-city bonuses available from an Academy and Oxford, and the beakers start to mount up fast).
A CS Sling means using the Oracle to get CS as the free technology (since otherwise it's the most expensive tech we'll have researched at the time).

Without a commerce resource in the capital, very slow AIs, or possibly something weird, a CS sling is unlikely to be possible (or worth it if you sacrifice a lot to try it) on Emperor. Even then an AI like Ramsses can say "screw you" and build the Oracle in 1800BC.

 

[Shaandore]

How about oracle->MC?
There are several things why I think that this is a good move:
1) good synergy with early pottery
2) we have cheap forges
3) less gambling than CS
4) good start for a trebuchet war
Oracle->CoL could also be good if we want a shrine for sure.
Oracle->Construction if we have a neighbour to catapult down.

Getting CS would be nice, but without a special commerce tile it is unlikely that we can get it.

About the fog: I can see pretty clearly that 2N of settler is an unforested plains hill. Going around counterclockwise there are some flat plains tiles (unforested), then 1 floodplain. Two forests, the second is a flat plains forest. Then flat plains again, ocean, then flat plains and we arrived back to the hill 2N of settler. If I didn't screw up, the test save should be the same.

@unclethrill: good tests! Why did you build Stonehenge? For the GProphet points?

 

[BSPollux]

Quick test done at the field 2E from settlers startingpoint. And the fields in the fog were as bad as possible. The real game can impossibly be worse

Warrior - Workboat - worker - settler(42) - Settler (50) - Oracle(65) (slowed down 2 turns to wait for tech)

Sailing - Mining - Myth - Polytheism - priest - writing - free code of laws from oracle

I'm not used to such detailed planing, but I thought that getting beaten on the oracle was strange, so I tried to be quicker.


Now SIP
(chopping like mad)

Warrior - worker - warrior - worker - Stonehenge(48) - worker - settler - Oracle(63) -Library(64) -Settler(68)

Pottery - Myth- mining - bronze - meditation - priest - writing - Code of laws (free) - whatever

First great person: Turn 75 (with scientists points from Library it leads to 80%GP 20%GS)

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

As we are not playing CiV CS is not 'CityState'. But what does it mean and what is a 'CS Sling'?

The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to vote for warrior->1N instead of Warrior->1SW.
Setteling the capital right between the corn and the fish might be an option if there was another hill or a seares hidden in the fog.
First turn could be Warrior->1N, Settler->1SE.

The reason I wouldn't send the Settler SW (like I originally thought was a good idea!) is that unless you do settle on that tile, you only have two options to settle on T1. Seems like similar problems with SE. Send him NE, and you can either settle there on T0, or move one more tile and settle T1. Also. you get a look at the tiles to the north. It would suck if we SIP and we lose something good in the fog. He'll see tiles the warrior won't on T0.

@Shanndore - I like the MC idea if we settle on the coast. I think that would give us a shot at Colossus, especially if we find copper somewhere nearby.

@BSPollux - I assume fishing is in your tech tree somewhere. Louis starts w/ Ag and Wheel according to AlanH. I usually start the worker right off instead of a warrior. Does everyone else think a warrior build should be first?

 

[ZPV]

If we Oracle anything, I'd suggest Currency via Alphabet. That gives us a fairly large economic boost (being able to trade for gold), but also allows us to get on with stealing IW. I'm not completely sure we should build the Oracle at all though - it's not appropriate for every start, and it might turn out to be better to go for Pottery and Bronze Working right away.

 

[Shaandore]

Oracle is a must IMO. In recent SGOTM threads I read about its returns, and it's huge. Very good hammer/beaker ratio. We have plenty of forests to chop, so I don't see how it's a bad idea. If we lose it, it is still not a huge setbeck compared to other teams, since it is standard play in SGOTMs.

Early alpha is a good point, we do need it to get IW via espionage. Problem is, it is slow, can not be bulbed, so oracle->currency will be a big gamble this way. I would start teching alpha after oracle.

Problem with colossus is that the capital won't get much benefit if we settle 1SE. (very few water tiles) I don't really like non-financial colossus, because usually there are better tiles than 2f3c while the cities are small. And it becomes obsolete early. MC is good if we want early forges for GE or production boost, and to get to trebs/astro early.

I don't think that we should move just to get something unvisible in the fog. After all, we only see 1 resource, so there should be one more in the SIP BFC.

 

[ZPV]

Oracle is a must IMO. In recent SGOTM threads I read about its returns, and it's huge. Very good hammer/beaker ratio. We have plenty of forests to chop, so I don't see how it's a bad idea. If we lose it, it is still not a huge setbeck compared to other teams, since it is standard play in SGOTMs.

Early alpha is a good point, we do need it to get IW via espionage. Problem is, it is slow, can not be bulbed, so oracle->currency will be a big gamble this way. I would start teching alpha after oracle.

Problem with colossus is that the capital won't get much benefit if we settle 1SE. (very few water tiles) I don't really like non-financial colossus, because usually there are better tiles than 2f3c while the cities are small. And it becomes obsolete early. MC is good if we want early forges for GE or production boost, and to get to trebs/astro early.

I don't think that we should move just to get something unvisible in the fog. After all, we only see 1 resource, so there should be one more in the SIP BFC.

The Oracle is powerful, but there is no point whatsoever in researching Giant White Elephant tech with it, no matter what the hammer/beaker ratio. We measure the value of it by how useful the tech you get is, not just how much it costs. Frankly this discussion is moot until we know what the land looks like and what our needs are. MC isn't really a natural fit for this scenario, but could possibly be useful.

 

[Shaandore]

I'm not saying that MC has to be our Oracle tech, I just wanted to point out the synergy of early pottery, MC and cheap forges. The best oracle tech is a big decision, and depends a lot on our land and neighbours, so we won't be able to decide it for a while. But usually there are techs that we need very bad, and getting them with oracle is always a good investment (if we do get the wonder).

Giant White Elephant tech

Construction?

On the serious side, cataphant wars are awesome, so if we do have ivory, we should consider oracle->construction.

 

[unclethrill]

I like Currency from the oracle. It is reachable, a help and doesn't stop us from stealing IW.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I like Currency from the oracle. It is reachable, a help and doesn't stop us from stealing IW.

Currency would be great, but what's the tech path that gets us there?

Pottery > Writ > Alpha to reach it

Myst > Med > Priest to build it

Are we going to stick mining in there to work the hills and BW for chops? That's quite a bit of commerce. And if we want to work the fish, we need fishing, too.

 

[unclethrill]

Currency would be great, but what's the tech path that gets us there?

Pottery > Writ > Alpha to reach it

Myst > Med > Priest to build it

Are we going to stick mining in there to work the hills and BW for chops? That's quite a bit of commerce. And if we want to work the fish, we need fishing, too.

I'm gonna make a test of this tonight as soon as I can. My thoughts are

Pottery>Writ> Alpha. Trade for Myst, med, Priest, Mining,

Build farm on corn and Cottages then finish the oracle and take currency.

Seems easy enough!

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

That's making the assumption we a) find another Civ, and b) they aren't one of the angry ones who never trade anything!

 

[unclethrill]

That's making the assumption we a) find another Civ, and b) they aren't one of the angry ones who never trade anything!

Well it's making a whole lot more assumptions than that but in my test I can guarantee both of those!

 

[unclethrill]

So made another SIP run looking for Currency with the Oracle.

Details:

Capital Builds: Worker (15) -> Warrior (22) -> Lib -> Settler -> Warrior -> Oracle (T72) -> Lots of other stuff to T100

Research: Pottery > Writing > Alpha > Med >Poly >Priest >CoL > Math (T100)
Traded for Mining, BW, Fish, AH, Arch, Mason, Hunting, Sailing, Mono, Monarchy

T100 - Stole IW, 3 cities, 4 archers, 3 warrior, 3 workers

I think that we will need to shave 6 turns off the oracle time to be considered mostly safe. The ability to do that will depend on the actual terrain.

 

[unclethrill]

The save will be available in about 28 hours.

BLubmuz: We need those first few reserved posts filled in soon. Also we need a roster.

All: We need to focus some time on discussing the opening warrior move. Once that is done we will have a better idea of what to do with our Settler. We don't have to nail down our total strategy but we need to continue the discussion of VCs and wonder whoring. BTW, 5thElement is really good at building all kinds of wonders whether they help us win or not.