SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Blubmuz, were you a Misfit a long time ago?

 

[unclethrill]

Blubmuz, were you a Misfit a long time ago?

He still is! Just wait till we get the game rolling!

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

*chortle*

 

[unclethrill]

Saves are up. Remember to be extra careful if you open it!

 

[Shaandore]

I'm not sure I've ever paused a game... I don't even have a pause button!

I'd probably send the warrior SW, but he'd have to find something real special to move that way. Not sure why having a high food city is a bad idea, but if everyone is sold on the SIP, at least we're out of the gate quick. I would like to run a few tests this weekend (maybe some tonight) before we move or settle, though.

Problem with fish is that it's not available until fishing+workboat. Even then it gives 5 food (at size 2, it's 4 more food due to a floodplain in the original position.) Sailing+lighthouse for one more food won't be in for a while unless we want a run at TGLH.

Now bare in mind that we only need to produce a settler and 1 or 2 workers in the cap (the rest could be done by a higher food city, for example the fish), and the fact that early commerce has some nice benefits (better oracle date, earlier wars), the question really is the delay until first settler. If we can produce the settler with SIP about the same turn (+-2) and size as with the SE spot, then I see no reason to move there.

Also note that this is still an unfair comparison. The problem with the fish spot is that it has 3 tiles worth working (corn, fish, grass hill), the other spot shines when it gets to size 5ish and works some cottages.

After looking at unclethrill's test I see no clear advantage of moving to the fishy site. Of course another test would be nice to ensure that.

 

[Shaandore]

Saves are up. Remember to be extra careful if you open it!

I can open the save tonight, and post back what I saw in the fog. If there is no other volunteer, I would be happy to be the first player.

 

[ZPV]

I've had a look at the save.
The three unforested tiles to the west are floodplains, plains, grassland, from south to north. The tile SSW of the settler looks like a plains hill forest. I'm not sure about the plains part - the river gets in the way a bit - but it's definitely a hill.
There are 1142 land tiles, with a total of 2072 unimproved food (including coast tiles) (1036 "max" pop).
EDIT: After playing around with different settings that looks most likely to correspond to 2 snaky continents, or possibly 2 normal continents with a bunch of 1-tile islands.
Rival powers: 18k max; 16333 average; 14k min. I'll wangle out what that means in a couple of minutes.

The most important things in the first set are to uncover the land for our immediate cities, and keep that warrior alive. I'm happy either way with the roster - perhaps the first turnset should go to an established team member, but I'm also happy to make what I will of it.

I've been testing a different route to unclethrill - instead going heavy on the development (BW, Fishing before Pottery, etc, and picking up Alphabet at the end of the tech line and earlier city plants). I haven't got the MM sorted out yet, but this could be viable for the slingshot - a close early second city is a big commerce boost - possibly enough to pay for the extra tech if we run scientists there in a cheap library.

 

[ZPV]

Rival powers: 18k max; 16333 average; 14k min. I'll wangle out what that means in a couple of minutes.

Hunting: 2k
Archery: 6k
2 Archers: 6k
----------
Mining 2k; Wheel 4k.

Neither Mali nor Babylon are present - their UU is worth more, and they start with the wheel.

14k in civ-specific starting techs between the AIs.
Could be 0/2/2/2/4/4 or 0/0/2/4/4/4

Mining: Carthage, China, England, Ethiopia, Japan, Germany, India, Khmer, Korea, Maya, Portugal, Rome, Russia
Wheel: Arabia, (Babylon), Byzantium, Egypt, France, Mongolia, Ottoman, Sumeria
Both: Mali
We should hopefully be able to tell more once they've settled their cities.

 

[unclethrill]

Hunting: 2k
Archery: 6k
2 Archers: 6k
----------
Mining 2k; Wheel 4k.

Neither Mali nor Babylon are present - their UU is worth more, and they start with the wheel.

14k in civ-specific starting techs between the AIs.
Could be 0/2/2/2/4/4 or 0/0/2/4/4/4

Mining: Carthage, China, England, Ethiopia, Japan, Germany, India, Khmer, Korea, Maya, Portugal, Rome, Russia
Wheel: Arabia, (Babylon), Byzantium, Egypt, France, Mongolia, Ottoman, Sumeria
Both: Mali
We should hopefully be able to tell more once they've settled their cities.

If after T1 you can give an educated guess as to who you think the AI are then I can build a new test game with those AI and the land formations you guessed. Then we might be able to get a better guesstimate of timing on wonders and such.

 

[BSPollux]

great analysis ZPV
Thanks

 

[BLubmuz]

I've tried to download the save this morning, then i was away and i'm looking at it right now.

I agree with ZPV about the unforested tiles W of the river and probably also on the forested PH SSW. I can add that 2N of the settler should be a hill, probably plains and not forested. That changes drastically my idea to settle on coast, but i still don't like SIP, since it makes the fish city really crap.
Maybe settle 1W can let room for a better fish city.

Do we have a majority about the warrior move? Just in case:

a) hill SW
b) plains 1N

I discarded NE because it reveals less than 1N.

I think b) is my choice.

I'm fine with Shaandore take the first set. Then, please post if you're busy in any of the next 3 weeks and when, so i can make a roster, at least a decent draft.

For the new members (but ZPV of course): are you all OK in loading the save? no errors, no problems? Feedback please.

@ Shaan: please post a screenie after you have moved the warrior (once we agree on the move) and save. Then, when we have decided where to settle, you'll start your actual TS (TurnSet) from that save, not from the one you downloaded. That save cannot be uploaded to the CFC server, but it's better you post it along with the picture, just to be safe.

BTW, anyone have problems with taking screenies?

@ZPV: no, this is my 15th game with FE

thank you Bill

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I'm fine with Shaandore take the first set. Then, please post if you're busy in any of the next 3 weeks and when, so i can make a roster, at least a decent draft.

For the new members (but ZPV of course): are you all OK in loading the save? no errors, no problems? Feedback please.

@ Shaan: please post a screenie after you have moved the warrior (once we agree on the move) and save. Then, when we have decided where to settle, you'll start your actual TS (TurnSet) from that save, not from the one you downloaded. That save cannot be uploaded to the CFC server, but it's better you post it along with the picture, just to be safe.

BTW, anyone have problems with taking screenies?

1) I'm available.

2) I haven't DL'd the save, but I can open all the regular GOTM saves. I don't plan on opening the save until it's my turn.

3) Don't we pick up the save from the CFC server when it's our turn? I told you it had been awhile since I played...

4) No problem w/ screenies.

 

[Shaandore]

Sorry guys, I couldn't open the save tonight, but ZPV did point out the two things that I was uncertain about: the tile WWN of settler is grass (in the test game it is plains IIRC), and the tile SSW of settler might be a hill, but it is not clear even from the save. All other tiles should be fine in the test game.

@BLubmuz: "I discarded NE because it reveals less than 1N."
Isn't it the other way around? 1N reveals 2 tiles, 1 NE reveals 3 (the ocean tile is the extra).

With moving 1W we lose the grass hill, and a riverside grassland (the one we settle on). Wouldn't it be better to move 1NW instead? (see my initial comparison of possible sites: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11836770&postcount=31 )


I will edit this post in the morning when I have opened the save.

Edit: I opened the save without problems.

 

[BSPollux]

Warrior move: my vote is for b: 1N

Please lets agree on that first and decide the settler move / city placement AFTER we have all info we can get. No use in discussing it twice.

 

[ZPV]

Sorry guys, I couldn't open the save tonight, but ZPV did point out the two things that I was uncertain about: the tile WWN of settler is grass (in the test game it is plains IIRC), and the tile SSW of settler might be a hill, but it is not clear even from the save. All other tiles should be fine in the test game.

Satellite view (which makes the tiles actually look like squares on the screen rather than being in perspective, and is useful for things like screenshots for dotmaps) makes it clear there's a hill there - you can see the telltale rocky patches on the tile bleed. There are no signs of green, so I think it's a plains forest hill.

 

[ZPV]

but i still don't like SIP, since it makes the fish city really crap.
Maybe settle 1W can let room for a better fish city.

What do we actually gain by giving more room for the fish city? It's only ever going to be a helper city anyway, whether we move the capital to give it one grass hill or not.

If we do move, the cost is about 6 immediate commerce (1 turn's worth, minus the benefit of working the FP immediately) and 2 turns of growth (due to the worker having to walk to the corn). Maybe there's something I've not thought of that's worth the cost, but at the moment I'm just not seeing it.

 

[ZPV]

@BLubmuz: "I discarded NE because it reveals less than 1N."
Isn't it the other way around? 1N reveals 2 tiles, 1 NE reveals 3 (the ocean tile is the extra).

NE reveals the water tiles; N reveals the plains hill.

-------

I don't view either as very likely to affect our settling decision - the crown jewels at NNE+N would possibly make settling on the coast attractive - or gold on the plains hill puts an even higher premium on the turn(s) lost by moving.
Because of that, my vote is for SW to make the most of the few turns before animals spawn.

 

[unclethrill]

Well the way I see it. 1N reveals 3 tiles including the hill NN of the settler. 1NW reveals more but will likely be ocean so not very useful. 1SW should reveals 6 tiles. With that said, the six tiles to the south would need to reveal something akin to a double gem start to make moving the settler 2 times to get to it. 1N seems to be the best move though I am getting the feeling that we are gonna have to decide the settling location with very little more info than we have right now.

 

[Shaandore]

NE reveals the water tiles; N reveals the plains hill.

Oh. I forgot that. But we do know that it is an unforested PH, don't we? PHs rarely have visible resource in the early game, i would guess that seafood is more common, hence 1NE has more potential of revealing something useful.

But it's quite irrelevant, since I vote for warrior->SW, my reason behind is that I believe SIP is the best move, so those tiles will be fogbusted by city culture.

I opened the save, and I can confirm everything that has been said about the fog. I will update the test game once the warrior move is executed if that is fine. (Maybe sooner if I have time)

 

[BLubmuz]

Well, the warrior move is almost irrelevant. At this point we can flip a coin or let the decision to the turn player. I think i'm joining the SIP party, unless the warrior reveals something.

Shaan, yours move.