SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Nov 30, 2012

ZPV, i don't think is a matter for your TS, but i think that a library in any city is needed, better sooner than later. If we plan to go for a Cuirass war better have it happen ASAP.

I'd like to see any city with
Granary
Forge
CH
Library
Market

Other structures can depend by the city specialization, but surely observatories ... pardon, salons will go in any city. Then we do not have to forget the 6 banks needed for Wall Street. In Thebes or Bibracte, i think.

ZPV · Nov 30, 2012

Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Library, Salon - yes, in the end.
Market - no. That's expensive and has only a small effect.

BLubmuz · Nov 30, 2012

ZPV said:
Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Library, Salon - yes, in the end.
Market - no. That's expensive and has only a small effect.

Expensive, true, but it gives some happiness doubles - silk for us - and has the same effect of a library with research 100% when research is 0%. But it can be even better be replaced by a grocer if we need health. And we have 2 resources (3 after the fall of Bibracte) which a grocer doubles.

BLubmuz · Nov 30, 2012

I'm up after ZPV unless Unclethrill can play.

Hey UT, still alive?

unclethrill · Nov 30, 2012

Yep still alive. You go first then I'll take the next set.

ZPV · Dec 1, 2012

350AD
Continue, as planned.

IBT:
Brennus learns Calendar!

375AD:
I think Calendar <-> Alphabet + Meditation + 27 gold is possible, because Brennus thinks he's in economic trouble. (26 gold is the difference in trade values between the techs, but rounding errors prevent him from suggesting it).
I'll pull the trigger on this in an hour or so.
edit: done.

Folket · Dec 1, 2012

At last, looking forward for the rest of the TS.

ZPV · Dec 1, 2012

375AD, IBT:
Ramesses pops another Great Prophet.

450AD, IBT:
Ramesses learns Feudalism, builds the Hagia Sophia, and adopts Vassalage.
He's not planning a war yet, but I'll keep an eye on him. He doesn't have open borders with Brennus, so it shouldn't be a problem.

475AD:
Our returning work boat in the east runs into a barb galley. I'd better build a trireme in Lyons.

520AD:
Chartres founded on the island. It has a horse resource to go with the fish and sheep.

IBT: Brennus pops a Great Prophet! That'll be shrine #3 coming right up!

580AD:
We are the first to Philosophy, and the Taoist holy city is... Chartres on the island.
A barb sword has appeared there too. I'll try and arrange for it to give the 9/10XP sword its third promotion.
A couple of whips, then revolt to Caste System + Pacifism.
Ramesses has Aesthetics; he won't trade it, of course. There's been no mention of a great artist being born yet.

600AD:
Four scientists and six merchants are hired.

IBT: Ramesses builds Mausoleum of Mausollos

620AD:
Brennus has learned Construction; both AIs will trade it. I trade CoL + 10 gold <-> Construction with Ramesses.

720AD:
Archimedes (Great Engineer) has been born in Lyons.
A Great Merchant will be born in 2 turns. A further 2 or 3 turns (hopefully 2) will see a Great Scientist.

Spoiler :

Ramesses has Drama, and will probably take Music next. I'm happy enough with that, since he'll build the Sistine Chapel for us (just like he's building every other wonder for us :crazyeye:

)
Time to upload!
-----------------------------
Comments for the next turnset:
a) I could play up to Education, since that is the next decision point, and only a few turns down the road, or hand off, because I've had about 20 turns.
b) When the Great Merchant pops, the fastest route to Thebes is via our SW cities, taking a ride on the galley near Avignon. Ideally that could time with growth in Paris so that Paris is size 14 when we take the trade mission, and then whip the university on the same turn.
c) On the island at Chartres, we have a 7XP sword and a 9XP sword.
I recommend attacking with the 7XP sword, at 50% odds, since that would give it 3XP. If it loses, then clean up with the 9XP one.

Spoiler :

d) There's a little bit of micromanagement of the two Great Person cities, and the cottages at Paris. I'm sure you can figure it out, but I'll help if you want.
e) You'll have to figure out the worker moves north of Paris too. Two prechopped, roaded forests, and two regular chops, mean two workers can chop all four of them in a total of 2 turns.

Spoiler upload log :

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2012

Well done ZPV :goodjob:

The only thing i don't like is that farm near Orleans: why not a cottage?

Then, why the GM before the GS? Because it needs to travel?

Then. the 9 XP sword. He's 50% odds, so
a) we risk to lose the chance and try to attack with the one stacked with him, so he can finish the barb in case
b) we can try to move him on the hill and hope the barb will attack
c) we attack and hope

If you like to play until Edu, go ahead, otherwise i'm ready... i think

Can we build some axe? I feel better with axes. also with some spear and some archer.
Do we take the Optics path after Edu? I think so.

The plan for the civics: turn back to slavery/OR after Edu to whip 6 Unis?

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2012

More questions.
- Do we think it's worth to settle another city North of Paris? I don't think so, because it will steal good tiles from Marseilles or Tours or it would be the classical fishing village.

- I think that the island would be better with only one more city: 1E of clams. Riverside, 3 FPs, 3 hills and ice iron. with 3 cities we have too much overlap. There's also the colony problem, which starts with 3 cities on a different landmass.

Shaandore · Dec 1, 2012

Well played, ZPV! I think you should continue until Education is done. It is easier to finish the GP micro than writing it down for next player.

I think that we should postpone optics, since we won't get many trades out of it right now. Hopefully the AI won't be able to catch up at all. I would rather start conquering our continent. We should take the fastest path to cuirassiers.
After running at 0% and getting Oxford, we should tech Nationalism for the Taj Mahal, then backfill HBR, Aesth, Lit, Music, then tech Mil tradition. With all the gold from the great Merchant we should be there pretty fast.

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2012

Shaandore said:
Well played, ZPV! I think you should continue until Education is done. It is easier to finish the GP micro than writing it down for next player.

I think that we should postpone optics, since we won't get many trades out of it right now. Hopefully the AI won't be able to catch up at all. I would rather start conquering our continent. We should take the fastest path to cuirassiers.
After running at 0% and getting Oxford, we should tech Nationalism for the Taj Mahal, then backfill HBR, Aesth, Lit, Music, then tech Mil tradition. With all the gold from the great Merchant we should be there pretty fast.

There's not much micro to do. Only if we want a GS first. But i already asked to ZPV.

Cuirassiers need Gunpowder (GP), so it's not so easy, we need that too. But we are too much exposed for too much time without any really competitive unit. If Ramesses decide to attack using galleys, we're toasted.

Also, the Taj without MoM is a waste, especially with the MoM so near. Once we're to Nationalism, there's no race for Taj: any AI will be painfully backwards. But there can be a race for the circumnavigation bonus and i'd like to win it. Better, i do not even like a race. We arrive far before anyone else, period. Cuirass can be backed by musketeers. BTW did anyone considered this very good and cheap unit? 2 moves, ignores walls, Brennus is still faraway from LBs... why not GP after Edu, then the path to optics, then the one to cuirass? provided we need them. Musketeers are slightly cheaper, strenght 9 versus 12, but think to when they arrive... coupled with cats and xbows they can be a great unit.

Stupid me to not have thought to Musketeers earlier. ZPV strategy can be an even greater move if we consider that it opens GP and our nice UU.
They have no counter in the field and only LBs in cities can be a problem for them at this stage. If we're good enough nor Brennus nor Ramesses will arrive to maces before we wipe them.

I already fought a war with Muskets and cannons. Cats can be a good replacement, see how sooner they arrive. And they cost exactly one half, so we can afford to lose some.

ZPV · Dec 1, 2012

Answers to questions:

After conquest, we'll want to go close to ICS, more or less. Corporations when we have a continent's worth of resources are just that powerful. There are also a ton of 1-seafood spots out there, and we will want to settle them all.

Farm vs cottage at Orleans? That was a close call, but I think the time for new cottages is over. This is one of our military production powerhouses, and we want maximum growth and production.

Why the Great Merchant first? A couple of reasons.
Firstly, there's only a tight window when Paris is size 14 (which gives a 200 gold bonus over size 11-13), since it'll have to whip its university, and it takes 8 turns to travel and fire the mission.
Secondly, Rheims can run 9 scientists for two turns after the GM, without losing a citizen to starvation, so it'll be able to pop a GS in 2 turns.
Finally, I'd like Tours to take up cottage growth duties again, so that Paris can steal the villages back from Orleans, etc.

Swords at Chartres:
Attacking with the 7XP sword: if he wins, he goes to 10XP.
If he loses, then the 9XP sword should have high odds.
If I understand the code correctly, the barbs are unlikely to attack across the river onto the forest hill - a 1/8 chance of them doing it between equal units.

Musketeers:
Wow, you're right, there's an opportunity here, because Brennus is so slow. I assumed we'd be facing longbows, and then the extra promotion of mounted units is needed.
If we attack with them, we should do it like a mounted war - i.e. amass about 15 of them, then run through Gergovia, Tolosa and Bibracte without stopping for breath, then regroup and mop up the other cities with the addition of the odd catapult or experienced swordsman in some cities.
Brennus has 11 cities, but none of them are on hills!
If we do this, we still have to be careful to tech fast, but I think we'll be able to get through enough city capture gold, etc, to pay for one additional empire for a few turns (and the cushy shrine will help too).
Ramesses will require more or better units. We can reasonably wait for cannons with him.

Egyptian threat:
We have no units, but still have almost as much power as Ramesses, who is too busy building wonders to think about invading. I don't think the AI can actually do galley invasions on the same landmass anyway.

Optics? It's not our biggest priority, but it's a cheap detour (not until after gfunpowder obviously).

Blubmuz, you're up. I think it's best to switch now so that you can work out the university whips and plan for them a few turns in advance.

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2012

Good to see you like both my Musketeers war plans and my proposed research path.

I've already seen the save, i'll try a plan for some 10 turns later tonight.

ICS??? Infinite City Spreading? It was used in Civ 3... ok i see.

How many people should i whip? I think 1-2 max in Paris and 2-3 in the remaining cities.

ZPV · Dec 1, 2012

BLubmuz said:
Good to see you like both my Musketeers war plans and my proposed research path.

I've already seen the save, i'll try a plan for some 10 turns later tonight.

ICS??? Infinite City Spreading? It was used in Civ 3... ok i see.

How many people should i whip? I think 1-2 max in Paris and 2-3 in the remaining cities.

I'd assumed it would be 4 pop (for 180 of the 200 hammers) in the outside cities, and 3 in Paris (ditto). We don't really want to wait very long before turning the tech back on again. Of course, in any city that can usefully get it down to 3 pop instead, without delaying Paris, that's fine too.
Citizens grow back quickly.

Yes. The acronym I'd heard of is Infinite City Sprawl, but it's the same idea. When every city gets +10 food, +10 base hammers from corporations (or more - we can already see 11 mining resources and 15 sushi ones), just having them is more important than making sure they all have lots of tiles to work. I think an exception can be made for foodless sites, and a couple of super-cities which will want to work all 20 tiles, but every other site tends to pay for itself very very quickly.

Folket · Dec 1, 2012

Well played and done on time. Great, Next TS goal for friday?

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2012

Folket said:
Well played and done on time. Great, Next TS goal for friday?

I think much sooner, there's not much to discuss.

My PPP:
Research
- Finish Edu with a partial GS bulb, see how to keep the slider to 0 or o max to optimize the bulb
- Start Gunpowder, then (provided i finish it) the path to Optics with Machinery - Compass - Optics

New city on the island
See some post above for my thoughts on the matter. This is a thing to discuss I see a settler almost completed in Lyons. BTW, working a sea tile instead of incense we can gain 1 turn. The galley can arrive just in time to ferry him.

Swordman to 10 XP
I'll attack first with the one at 7. If he fails, the 9 is guaranteed.

Great people
The GM will arrive in 2 turns, no way to anticipate. Send him immediately to Thebes for a Trade Mission.
The GS says 3 turns, but we need 100 more GPPs, thus it will be 6 at this rate. I'll see if there can be a way to gain 1 turn without actually starve the city. Bulb part of Edu immediately, possibly timig to close it in 1 turn. 2 at worst. (see Research)
I'll see if keep some specialist in both cities if there aren't good tiles to work. Another GS would be welcome.

Builds
I think it's the moment to build barracks in Paris. We have 3 ATM: Orleans, Marseilles and Lyons. All good production cities, but far from the front.
Also Apache can build it after the CH, but it needs also a LH... i'll see.
Universities: we have 7 libraries ATM. Apache and Marseilles can't be whipped hard, but both have good production. I'll see what is the best candidate for the 6th Uni.
Once the Unis are completed, chop anything in sight for the OU.

Units
I'd like to build 2 axe+spear pairs for Uzbek and Avignon. I'll be more relaxed once they are in place. Maybe also a couple chariots.

Workers
Improve the SW area (gems, chops and jungles to clear) and prepare all the chops for OU. 2 in the island are enough for now. I'll see for WB feom Lyons after the settler.
I think to send the worker now farming near Rheims to build a road on the 2nd gems. That will gain 1 turn if we attack from that side.

Civics
Switch back to slavery/OR as soon as Edu is learned.

Trades
No techs on the table but archery ATM.
Brennus would trade spices and we can offer resources, so i think it's worth.
Ramesses has nothing but 1 gpt, which i don't think it's worth.

Diplo
Reject any demand. Keep OB with both.
End of the PPP, let's start the comments.

Folket · Dec 1, 2012

After the change back to slavery/OR I would consider to change to buddhism. We have it in our country. We have excess happiness everywhere. We will then be able to bribe Ramesses into war with Brennus and we should have him at friendly and take all his techs before we destroy him.

Remember to trade. Seems like there is excess gold and resources around to trade.

I rather see that we do not build more units before gunpowder. I just do not see how we are going to get attacked.

Folket · Dec 1, 2012

So my point is. I would be ok with giving help to Ramesses. But the strategic decission on whether we want to trade for his techs or not needs to be made.

Shaandore · Dec 1, 2012

Musketeers is a good plan, but we need to be fast. When Brennus gets LBs, they will have very bad odds. And they won't last long, so we will need those cats in the end.

The universities should be whipped ASAP so we can start Oxford sooner. The chops obviously should go into Oxford because there is a whip penalty on it, but you already knew that.

On the PPP:

Research: I still think that optics should wait after we have the militay to take over the continent. We won't get trade routes until Astro, and good trades won't show up. I prefer Nationalism after gunpowder for the Taj. It's also on the way to Cuirassiers. Maybe we should get Literature before that to have the national epic already built during the Taj golden age. That golden age could give us some more GPs.

The Edu bulb: we need to calculate this so no beakers go to waste but we get Edu ASAP.

Alternatively we can try for libbing/teching Steel (depending on tightness of lib race) to do the Rammy war with cannons. In this case we need Machinery, Engineering and Chemistry first. We could try going for the Notre Dame too.

I don't think we need any axes spears, etc. (They won't save us in a war. Those hammers are better spent as buildings/wealth so we get to Musketeers sooner. BTW there is just no way that Rammy would attack us.) I strongly disagree with building any of these units.

I don't have any preference regarding the new city: both the island and the western spot are OK.

One more thing, Paris shouldn't bother building a barracks. It just won't be used. (Maybe in the industrial age, but then it will take 1 turn to build it.) It's a waste of hammers.

The rest of the plan is well thought-out. :goodjob:

SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

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