SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

Shaandore · Dec 3, 2012

Well, I choose Musketeers over any of those units. We will have them in no time.

At the moment, ZPV, Folket and myself are in favor of not trading for Archery, if I read the posts correctly. Unless Unclethrill and somebody else says that going for the archery trade is a good idea, the consensus is not to trade for it.

You are right that Military tradition is dead end, so if we get cannons, then we won't need it. But our most important thing to do is conquering, not defending. Cuirs/cav is good for that, we might also have some room now with muskets. Archers won't help us in conquering.

I think that you worry too much about defense. We have several very strong production cities, and by the time we declare war, we will have military tech superiority, slavery, and good scouting hopefully. Nothing to worry about.

BTW, will we be able to build LBs at all if we can build musketeers?

ZPV · Dec 3, 2012

Indeed, we shouldn't research MT either if we don't need it. We could go the whole game without learning that or archery if we wanted.

There is an argument that archery will allow us cheap military police for conquered cities for a little while.
However, the question is, do we need it, and do we have to trade for it now? If not, I'd prefer the gold (which is not much different from the gold cost of just researching it ourselves).

Archers are not much good in a city we think will actually be counter-attacked - and we're not talking about lbows or xbows because we can't get them until later and they're not so cheap anyway. When we could use them is at the end of the war when we want our good units to amass near Egypt. I think there'll be a cheaper opportunity to pick up Archery before then.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

Shaandore said:
Well, I choose Musketeers over any of those units. We will have them in no time.
(...)
BTW, will we be able to build LBs at all if we can build musketeers?

FYI:
A LB fortified in a city is roughly equals to a Rifleman. Far superior to a Musket, mainly if the city is on hills.

An Xbow in the field equals a musket against Melee.

A Pike is better than a Musket against Mounted.

Both are cheaper than Muskets. Archers are ridicously cheaper at this stage, but still effective when in a city.

LBs are obsoleted by Rifles and XBows and Maces by Grens or MGs. Once you get AL you can build only Infantry or MG if you got Railroad.

ZPV said:
Indeed, we shouldn't research MT either if we don't need it. We could go the whole game without learning that or archery if we wanted.

There is an argument that archery will allow us cheap military police for conquered cities for a little while.
However, the question is, do we need it, and do we have to trade for it now? If not, I'd prefer the gold (which is not much different from the gold cost of just researching it ourselves).

Archers are not much good in a city we think will actually be counter-attacked - and we're not talking about lbows or xbows because we can't get them until later and they're not so cheap anyway. When we could use them is at the end of the war when we want our good units to amass near Egypt. I think there'll be a cheaper opportunity to pick up Archery before then.

I brought my arguments, but i'm in minority. I'll try to squeeze some gold from both using our WM.
But you cannot forbidden me to beg Brennus for Archery

Gonna play now. Wish me good luck and hope i'll play to my usual level.

Shaandore · Dec 3, 2012

All these units are nice if we are defending. On the attacking side however, we do not choose the defending unit, which makes Musketeers better. Making a mixed stack with 2 move and 1 move units usually slows the war, so they won't really be used on the offense.

They are good for military police. But after a successful war, we will hopefully have some troops left that can act as MP just as fine.

I understand that they are cheaper, but the hammer difference won't be worth it, because we are not planning to mass produce them. Thus putting gold into trading for these techs, or even just giving some techs in return that make our enemies stronger is a bad idea.

And keep in mind that we can still get those techs for practically nothing later, if we need some cheap lbs.

Final thought: the 15 hammer cost of a warrior in the very early BCs is roughly the same investment as slow building 6 Musketeers now. They both take about 5 turns. In our soon-to-be ~30 city empire the 'cost' of an infantry is easily much less than the 'cost' of a longbow now. If everything goes right, we won't see any attacks until that time: our Rammy and Brennus won't attack, and the others usually think about such things when they get a metal navy. By that time we should have infantry.

Anyway, it is not worth arguing about, it won't break us either way. It's just that I think that not trading for these is the superior strategy at this moment.

EDIT:
Good luck!
Begging is a good idea!

ZPV · Dec 3, 2012

Whoa! Well, it should be ok for now, but that gives us a 10 turn peace treaty, so you can't beg far into the future.

Lbows are great at city defence, yes. Sitting around in cities and defending sucks, however. We should aim to do none of that. It's better to pick off units attacking if we can.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

Stopped for now.
Now is turn 158, 960 AD. The OU is completed and GP is due in 4 @ -153 gpt.
The trade mission netted us 1300g, Paris was s.11 with no hope to grow fast enough.
In fact i'm farming the plains just chopped.
We have a gold reserve of 2104 now.

The GS left only 9 beakers to Edu, which i provided running some sci to be able to keep the slider to 0.
Once Edu was in, i revolted back to slav/OR. The bottleneck for the 6th Uni was Tours, but regained the turn lost almost starving Paris. I'm building a 7th one in Marseilles, it was a backup and now i'm completing it slow-building it.

I opened with a round of trades: sell our WM to both our neighbours for 40g each (Brennus had 70. so i think that was its value), then asked for Archery and Brennus was pleased to help. I noticed Ram has 2 gpt, so i offered Deers and he happily accepted.
Lastly, changed an excess clams for spices.
Note that this is last turn of forced peace.

Brennus is friendly now and Ram pleased, so nothing to fear.

The 2nd city in the island is settled by the clams and any city has 2 overseas TR, netting us 3 commerce each in Paris and the 2 island cities and 2 in the remaining cities. We must consider some Harbour later.

I discovered a barb city in the SW corner of our continent, right on top of the Iron.

A barb galley arrived in the N of the island and i destroyed it with our Trireme. Later, when i was ferrying the GM another one popped in the South. I did not took any risk and ferried the GM. Unfortunately it pillaged our nets near Avignon, then pursued our galley. Finally it attacked, problem solved and our galley has 1 XP now.

Don't tell me to build a Trireme, i'm already doing it. Our first cat is ready and our first archer is building.

I think we need the backup troop i mentioned, so i'm proceeding on that way.

I'd like to set up a farms chain to Marseilles, starting from NE of corn. Tell me what you think.

Shaandore · Dec 3, 2012

I think you should proceed until gunpowder is ready. Then we can make a whipping plan. The farm chain is a good idea, but I can't really say much else without save or screenshots.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

Shaandore said:
I think you should proceed until gunpowder is ready. Then we can make a whipping plan. The farm chain is a good idea, but I can't really say much else without save or screenshots.

OK, i'll do it later tonight. I'll use those 4 turns to build some unit for MP. We need them. We must try to concentrate on Muskets once GP is in. Our cities need to grow, no more whips in my TS.

ZPV · Dec 3, 2012

Well played so far

Just a heads up: Marseilles does not need a university, unless it is already close to complete. That will give 1bpt or possibly 2 if we're lucky. Wealth is better. It also has just one farmable tile. Not worth the turns to chain the farms.

We have very little use for cats at this point. Outside Bibracte muskets (or our heavy CR swords) have >=50% odds anyway, and at Bibracte we don't want to wait.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

ZPV said:
Well played so far

Just a heads up: Marseilles does not need a university, unless it is already close to complete. That will give 1bpt or possibly 2 if we're lucky. Wealth is better. It also has just one farmable tile. Not worth the turns to chain the farms.

We have very little use for cats at this point. Outside Bibracte muskets (or our heavy CR swords) have >=50% odds anyway, and at Bibracte we don't want to wait.

I know it's the worst possible city to build a Uni, but i wasn't unsure of Tours and Apache. Tours was actually the bottleneck, while Apache seems to ba a true powerhouse. Pity, it's now 2 turns away, just a small mistake. Compensated by the OU rush, i hope.

It's not my merit, team-wise i think that the OU before 1000 AD with this map is great.

Well, our only cat will serve as MP in some way, i think. Now some archer because are cheap, then someone will build the D'Artagnan's friends.

I think that UT made this to steal me the fun to fight.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

Alright, TS played.
4 eventless turns. Just improved some land, built a couple strategic roads, cleared some jungle.

I forgot to mention that Ram has completed also Chicken Pizza... GP units can ignore its bonus? That guy is crazy... He's got CS now and he's researching DR.

I also forgot to inform you that Brennus built the Jewish Shrine too. So we can have 4 Shrines once Thebes falls.

Set research to Machinery, due in 2 turns.
The Galley is loaded with a warrior for MP in Rouen (island) and the 9 XP sword to be back in the mainland. Try to not make mistakes. We can probably gather the Tao missionary to use him somewhere without losing too many moves. Uload the warrior on the plains hill and move the missionary there to move on the galley the following turn.

Our WB is in place to rebuild the pillaged net :mad:

And our first musket will be ready next turn. There's a lot of forests to chop near Orleans, so i think it can keep the pace of 1 musket/turn.

Already set some to build, next player will do the rest.
The save is uploaded to the server. In game log

Spoiler :

And the auotolog

Spoiler :

The forced peace with Brennus is expired. He continues to expand, now he's got 13 cities and Ram 8.

BLubmuz · Dec 3, 2012

While updating page 1 i noticed that i played less than 20 turns. oh well.
I'm afraid some of us will lose the fight unless we play short sets to let anyone have his fun.

BTW, we need a chariot to use with the first GG, the one we have should probably hide in Egyptian lands and in case be ferried.

unclethrill · Dec 3, 2012

Great ts BLubmuz. I will DL the save tomorrow and start formulating a war plan. Please everyone chime in with suggestions.

Mastiff_of_Ar · Dec 3, 2012

unclethrill said:
Please everyone chime in with suggestions.

Kill 'em all! :ar15:

Shaandore · Dec 4, 2012

I'm looking forward to this war. I really hope that Brennus won't ruin it by getting lbs too soon. (We should look into this possibility.) I expect that I can open the save tonight and share some thoughts about it.

ZPV · Dec 4, 2012

Good job Blubmuz.
When did Brennus learn Monarchy?

Thoughts going forward:
There are now 5 cities with completed or almost-completed Barracks. These should all whip hard - hopefully we can have 15 musketeers in 6 turns.
I'd look to attack in 6 turns.
We need to see what's in Bibracte.
Some cottages need to be cancelled, I'm afraid - where farms are possible they are flat out better. Commerce cities, if not already developed, will become obsolete soon.
Neither Isca nor Verlamion present a threat. We can safely ignore them to go to Bibracte first.
With its two shrines, Bibracte must be the priority. The sooner we can capture it, and get it out of resistance, the better.

Folket · Dec 4, 2012

did you beg archery from Brennus?

BLubmuz · Dec 4, 2012

ZPV said:
When did Brennus learn Monarchy?

I did not verified F4 in my last turn. Maybe not in the second last. So it can be fresh or 2 turns. We can actually face LBs in Bibracte. By moving through his lands i noticed not many troops and mainly melee and some chariot. Really few archers.

Folket said:
did you beg archery from Brennus?

Sure i did it successfully, haven't you read my chronicle?

ZPV · Dec 4, 2012

Looking forward to Bibracte, I think we should set a target of 11 turns (from now) to capture it.
Our reinforcements will come thick and fast, and catch up to the lead stack very quickly - we just need enough to capture Gergovia and Tolosa, and the other musketeers will catch up very quickly on the roads.

Folket · Dec 4, 2012

I did, but I did not see you writing how you got Archery.

Well played btw. Now it is time for unclethrill to warmonger.

SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

another mathematician

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HoF Quattromaster

another mathematician

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HoF Quattromaster

another mathematician

HoF Quattromaster

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

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Why am I up right now?

In his Element

another mathematician

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Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Deity

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