SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

After the change back to slavery/OR I would consider to change to buddhism. We have it in our country. We have excess happiness everywhere. We will then be able to bribe Ramesses into war with Brennus and we should have him at friendly and take all his techs before we destroy him.

Remember to trade. Seems like there is excess gold and resources around to trade.

I rather see that we do not build more units before gunpowder. I just do not see how we are going to get attacked.

I think that we will do very well without Rammy's help. The problem with switching to Buddhism is that we don't get the Org rel multipliers. It is very important when we are whipping universities. Getting started on religion spreading is not a priority at the moment. (Oxford is much more important)

How many beakers could we gain by befriending him? (Which techs are we hoping to gain by switching?) It could be worth it if he has some nice techs. I don't have time to open the save now. (Maybe tomorrow)

 

[BLubmuz]

My desire of building units comes from this thoughts:
- we're running HR and we barely have 1 unit/city
- If we use whipping some unit can help to keep the city happy
- even if we start build units for the war in some 10-12 turns, we need units for MP. Any unit even obsolete, but not warriors, please!
- I agree that an attack is not probable, but better be on the safe side. In any case, see above.

Barracks in Paris: I don't think a war can be waged with only 3 cities producing units. Musketeers are expensive. Also cats are not that cheap. And we can't whip like mad or we'll find a poor empire.
Rheims too can be a good military city, being where it is. We can maybe skip barracks but build some suicide cat there. Once we switch to slavery it can't run only 2 specs, so it can work the hills.

Then, we can probably take Gergovia and Verlamion without siege, Tolosa maybe, but Bibracte surely needs catapults to bombard. I think that 10 cats and 10 Muskets can do it, but we need some unit to back them.

Convert to Buddhism to have Ramesses friendly? in the modern age perhaps. Brennus is not friendly yet and we're sharing the same religion since thousands years. We also lost 1 in all our cities but the latest founded ones. Not counting the turn we lost. I don't even consider this proposal.

Before the Taj is completed we MUST capture the MoM. Otherwise i can't see its usefulness. Or at least it will be diminished.

As you said, Ramesses is probably weak on units and he would be a better target than Brennus if he was closer. But i don't think we must wait until Cuirass to start with him. We can, of course, but we don't need to.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think that we will do very well without Rammy's help. The problem with switching to Buddhism is that we don't get the Org rel multipliers. It is very important when we are whipping universities. Getting started on religion spreading is not a priority at the moment. (Oxford is much more important)

How many beakers could we gain by befriending him? (Which techs are we hoping to gain by switching?) It could be worth it if he has some nice techs. I don't have time to open the save now. (Maybe tomorrow)

All good reasons to stay Hindu, just summed to the ones i listed above.

About techs, he has 4: Feud, Aesth, HBR and Theo. What can we give him? CS? Philo? No thanks. It's why i'm asking to research Optics: trade techs with the other continent. Not much, just to backfill some. By the time we'll be ready to invade there this won't means much.

 

[ZPV]

I think much sooner, there's not much to discuss.

My PPP:
Research
- Finish Edu with a partial GS bulb, see how to keep the slider to 0 or o max to optimize the bulb
- Start Gunpowder, then (provided i finish it) the path to Optics with Machinery - Compass - Optics

The lightbulb will give us 1500 + 3*population = 1719 beakers at the moment. If you research Education to a little under 1100 beakers, the GS lightbulb will finish it off.

New city on the island
See some post above for my thoughts on the matter. This is a thing to discuss I see a settler almost completed in Lyons. BTW, working a sea tile instead of incense we can gain 1 turn. The galley can arrive just in time to ferry him.

Careful. The galley is needed to ferry the great merchant across to egypt quickly and safely. The settler can walk to the Avignon area faster than a galley can carry it, so the galley isn't out of position anyway.
btw, the settler has just been started. It has no hammers invested.

I think the best site for it is the one with the fish and three floodplains. We can fill in the other cities later - colony costs won't be too dear.

Swordman to 10 XP
I'll attack first with the one at 7. If he fails, the 9 is guaranteed.

Fine.

Great people
The GM will arrive in 2 turns, no way to anticipate. Send him immediately to Thebes for a Trade Mission.
The GS says 3 turns, but we need 100 more GPPs, thus it will be 6 at this rate. I'll see if there can be a way to gain 1 turn without actually starve the city. Bulb part of Edu immediately, possibly timig to close it in 1 turn. 2 at worst. (see Research)
I'll see if keep some specialist in both cities if there aren't good tiles to work. Another GS would be welcome.

The GS will take 4 turns, not 5 or 6. Run 6-6-9-9 scientists. You won't starve because the pig and clams give a lot of food.

Builds
I think it's the moment to build barracks in Paris. We have 3 ATM: Orleans, Marseilles and Lyons. All good production cities, but far from the front.
Also Apache can build it after the CH, but it needs also a LH... i'll see.
Universities: we have 7 libraries ATM. Apache and Marseilles can't be whipped hard, but both have good production. I'll see what is the best candidate for the 6th Uni.
Once the Unis are completed, chop anything in sight for the OU.

No Barracks in Paris. That city only has one function, and that is to research. No aqueduct, no colloseum, no courthouse (until mining inc).

Apache absolutely can be whipped hard. It has two farmed floodplains and grassland pigs. It doesn't really need a lighthouse, but possibly if you want to grow on coast and then whip away again it makes sense.
Apache will also want a Barracks.

Marseilles is less clear because it doesn't have so much food, but whipping hard is correct in almost every city.

Units
I'd like to build 2 axe+spear pairs for Uzbek and Avignon. I'll be more relaxed once they are in place. Maybe also a couple chariots.

If you really have to. I didn't build them because I'm convinced we don't need them now, and the hammers would be better spent on other things.
Once we're at war, musketeers are so fast and flexible we won't need counterunits.

Workers
Improve the SW area (gems, chops and jungles to clear) and prepare all the chops for OU. 2 in the island are enough for now. I'll see for WB feom Lyons after the settler.
I think to send the worker now farming near Rheims to build a road on the 2nd gems. That will gain 1 turn if we attack from that side.

Just to be clear, new cities now only need farms, resource improvements, and some mines. Cottages have reached the point where building new ones is no longer worth it - we want our production to explode, and food is the way to do that.

Civics
Switch back to slavery/OR as soon as Edu is learned.

Fine. You can revolt when the GS pops if you prefer.

Trades
No techs on the table but archery ATM.
Brennus would trade spices and we can offer resources, so i think it's worth.
Ramesses has nothing but 1 gpt, which i don't think it's worth.

What do we get from spices? We have loads of happiness.

 

[ZPV]

My desire of building units comes from this thoughts:
- we're running HR and we barely have 1 unit/city
- If we use whipping some unit can help to keep the city happy
- even if we start build units for the war in some 10-12 turns, we need units for MP. Any unit even obsolete, but not warriors, please!
- I agree that an attack is not probable, but better be on the safe side. In any case, see above.

Barracks in Paris: I don't think a war can be waged with only 3 cities producing units. Musketeers are expensive. Also cats are not that cheap. And we can't whip like mad or we'll find a poor empire.
Rheims too can be a good military city, being where it is. We can maybe skip barracks but build some suicide cat there. Once we switch to slavery it can't run only 2 specs, so it can work the hills.

We must be fast to take advantage of there being no longbows. Every turn counts, because Brennus is starting to tech a bit now that he has the Hindu Shrine. That means no siege, 2-move it until Brennus is gassed, and definitely whip units. Not in our science cities (Paris, Tours, Chartres, etc.), but in our production cities, absolutely yes. Hard. The reason to have an economy is so that we can afford mad-whipping to take advantage of an opening like Brennus not having Monarchy yet. We won't do it forever - just to produce an army out of nowhere.

We do have several production cities already:
Lyons, Orleans, Marseilles, Apache.
If Rheims wants to chip in, that's fine too. It has a lot of food that can be whipped into units.
If new cities are ready to contribute units, that would be great.

Then, we can probably take Gergovia and Verlamion without siege, Tolosa maybe, but Bibracte surely needs catapults to bombard. I think that 10 cats and 10 Muskets can do it, but we need some unit to back them.

10 muskets and 0 cats would do the job at Bibracte. He won't have time to whip many emergency defenders because they are 2-movers, and his strongest units are archers and gallic warriors.

Convert to Buddhism to have Ramesses friendly? in the modern age perhaps. Brennus is not friendly yet and we're sharing the same religion since thousands years. We also lost 1 in all our cities but the latest founded ones. Not counting the turn we lost. I don't even consider this proposal.

Before the Taj is completed we MUST capture the MoM. Otherwise i can't see its usefulness. Or at least it will be diminished.

As you said, Ramesses is probably weak on units and he would be a better target than Brennus if he was closer. But i don't think we must wait until Cuirass to start with him. We can, of course, but we don't need to.

I don't see any value in converting to buddhism, losing the OR bonus in all our cities.
Taj without MoM: if an 8-turn golden age would save us turns of anarchy, then it's worth it anyway. Otherwise it can wait.

To fight Ramesses, we just need units in greater numbers, because he already has longbows, but then we'll be able to rush him right out of the game.

 

[BLubmuz]

We must be fast to take advantage of there being no longbows. (...)

10 muskets and 0 cats would do the job at Bibracte. He won't have time to whip many emergency defenders because they are 2-movers, and his strongest units are archers and gallic warriors.(...)

I think that 4 units won't delay research. With the few we have we have no problems of maintenance. If some city builds some unit instead of whealth we're a bit penalized, sure, but i think we can afford it. Whip the army hard, but our cities were already whipped hard for the Unis. I do not think that we can be ready before 6-8 turns after GP is in. Then, we need units for MP.

I'm not saying i'll build units in any city not busy with buildings for all my set, just i like to have some ready.

There's another thing to take in account about Ramesses: he's got Pyramids and i think we can revolt to Representation since we can run many specialists. If we time the Taj (we can stop it with 1 turn left) with the capture of the MoM and Mids it would be great.

Why not the spices trade? we've some city 2 below the happy cap and i don't think sugar will make Brennus gain something. But if you disagree, np.

I think i can use this method to time the whips for the Unis:
- i'll check every turn Paris to see when it can be whipped for 3 pop
- once i see it possible, i'll check any other Uni-city to see if i can whip for 4 pop.
When all the 6 unis can be whipped for no more than 4 pop, i'll do.
Obviously, any city will go to max hammers, Paris included.
Research will be set to 0 until the 6 Unis or until the OU? I'm afraid we can lose turns if i wait for the OU be completed. (to start with Brennus, i mean)

What about some monastery?

 

[BLubmuz]

The lightbulb will give us 1500 + 3*population = 1719 beakers at the moment. If you research Education to a little under 1100 beakers, the GS lightbulb will finish it off.

ha... something wrong here: 1500 base + 80 population (which we should have by the time we LB) is 1500+80*3=1740, not 1100.
edit:
reading again your post, you say 1719, which is the exact amout ATM. Why an half row later you say 1100? a typo or else?

Careful. The galley is needed to ferry the great merchant across to egypt quickly and safely. The settler can walk to the Avignon area faster than a galley can carry it, so the galley isn't out of position anyway.
btw, the settler has just been started. It has no hammers invested.

Good plan. Now let's see how it can work:
- the GM can walk to Avignon and be loaded in 4 turns, 6 from now.
the galley can move near Apache and wait the settler which can arrive there in 6 turns from now (4 to be built, 2 to walk)
- so i have the GM in place, but the galley 2 turns away, unless we keep the settler in standby until the galley is back from Elephantine, 10 turns from now.

If you say we have to privilege the GM, this is the way, but i can restart the CH and wait to build the settler. Or viceversa, the GM will wait the settler, delaying the mission by 2 turns. Small details, but better have them clear.

I think the best site for it is the one with the fish and three floodplains. We can fill in the other cities later - colony costs won't be too dear.

Fact is that the fish city has a tremendous overlap with the other 2. The only reason to build it is the fish.

Personally, i prefer 2 good cities instead of 3 so-so. The city by the clams can be riverside and have a levee with 6 river tiles. But if we settle it there, we can't settle more cities in the island. For me it's fine, but this is the reason why i'm discussing this matter

The GS will take 4 turns, not 5 or 6. Run 6-6-9-9 scientists. You won't starve because the pig and clams give a lot of food.

OK, this is what i meant with "i'll see..." you already made the math

10 muskets and 0 cats would do the job at Bibracte. He won't have time to whip many emergency defenders because they are 2-movers, and his strongest units are archers and gallic warriors.

Yes, We're delayed by the jungles and hills only until Tolosa, where the 2 stacks converge. then there's flat terrain. But we need to cross the river to attack. In any case, let's hope he does not arrive to Feud by then.

 

[ZPV]

I think that 4 units won't delay research. With the few we have we have no problems of maintenance. If some city builds some unit instead of whealth we're a bit penalized, sure, but i think we can afford it. Whip the army hard, but our cities were already whipped hard for the Unis. I do not think that we can be ready before 6-8 turns after GP is in. Then, we need units for MP.

I'm not saying i'll build units in any city not busy with buildings for all my set, just i like to have some ready.

There's another thing to take in account about Ramesses: he's got Pyramids and i think we can revolt to Representation since we can run many specialists. If we time the Taj (we can stop it with 1 turn left) with the capture of the MoM and Mids it would be great.

Why not the spices trade? we've some city 2 below the happy cap and i don't think sugar will make Brennus gain something. But if you disagree, np.

I think i can use this method to time the whips for the Unis:
- i'll check every turn Paris to see when it can be whipped for 3 pop
- once i see it possible, i'll check any other Uni-city to see if i can whip for 4 pop.
When all the 6 unis can be whipped for no more than 4 pop, i'll do.
Obviously, any city will go to max hammers, Paris included.
Research will be set to 0 until the 6 Unis or until the OU? I'm afraid we can lose turns if i wait for the OU be completed. (to start with Brennus, i mean)

What about some monastery?

Four units? In wealth they're the same as one extra turn at 0% research.

Ahh. I don't view one 4-pop whip as hard. I think that plus four 2-pops per city. We can pay for the happiness later when we have 30 cities. We won't rack up 10 per city like a pure military game, but we shouldn't hold back too much either.

We don't have a lot of commerce in cities outside Paris, and Monasteries will be obsolele before too long.

The Spices trade doesn't hurt. I just don't see how it helps either - our largest cities will be whipped soon anyway. That one's down to you.

0% until OU. You don't have to whip the University at Paris right away, because hammers will overflow into Oxford. Oxford will require 160 base hammers. The university will require a further 10. 102 of those can come from the four forests. The rest will take just a handful of turns - those are a few turns where we do want to work the hills.

On further consideration, I don't think there's time to get the Great Merchant to Thebes while Paris is size 14. In that case, it's better to worry about the settler first, but still, it can walk all the way over to Avignon rather than have the galley pick it up at Apache. (3 turns, but it's faster to the settling spot)
I guess, you work out what you want to do with these, and I'll support what you choose.

Sites on the island aren't worth fighting over. The clam one is fine.

Monasteries aren't worth it except in Paris. We'll build a few right before Scientific Method so that we can spread religion later, but +10% science for just a few turns before they obsolete isn't worth a thing in most cities.

One more thing about Taj: we should build it in Orleans. Usually you build it in the capital, because on the turn of building, cities after the Taj one in sequenece act like golden age anyway, but that's not possible, so the next possible is Orleans.

------
In response to the next post,

Education costs 2808 beakers. 1089 + 1719

In general, split stacks are for late in the war, when we look to mop up the outside cities quickly, rather than early when we want to capture the big researchers/producers ASAP.

 

[Folket]

Yes, getting optics to trade techs with the other continent seems like a good idea.

Brennus will turn Friendly as soon as we go back to OR.

Ramesses will be friendly after 20 turns after we switch. 20 turns in OR before switch will lower this to 10 turns. We can make is even faster if we bribe him into common war with Brennus. Which we can do in 20 turns in OR or immediately after switching. If we get the supplied with resources bonus that makes it go faster.

A second way to get Ramesses friendly would be gifting 1000 beaker in techs. Bribe him to join our war. Fight for 16-24 turns. Getting bonus for 40 turns in OR.

 

[Folket]

Trade the spices for a clam. Seems like a good deal to me.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Folket
I don't think that a revolt to Buddhism is worth some tech
- we lose 1 in all but 2 cities
- we must afford 1 turn of anarchy
- we don't want to give him any of our tech but Currency and maybe Paper
- we don't need to bribe him into war with Brennus, once he''ll see we take his Capital he will join, even if he does not have enough troops... he hates him
- i don't see why not wait to trade a few techs with the other continent. we need Eng, Chemistry. We can delay the Music and the Feud path until we have new "friends".

@ZPV and all
If you agree on the clam spot, i'll go for that

Then, if i build some unit before unis this can hurt less than if we build after, i think. In any case, if we plan to keep the slider to 0% until OU - if not to speed Edu - we'll be plenty of gold.

we're researching @ 286 bpt (improving) but we need another turn @ 0 to research for 3 turns @ 100. Then the GS will arrive and next turn we should complete. That can be one of the cases where binary can be not used.

Then, there's a possible chop for the settler by the worker now farming near Orleans: better do it, or wait to chop the uni?

Once those questions are solved, i can play, so we gain some day.

Last, the war plans, which we use after my TS
If we do not start with 2 stacks (3 actually) we can have the East flank exposed, thus we need units in Rheims. If we use say 4-5 muskets and a couple units (axe+spear, archer better) for Verlamion, the muskets can later move to Tolosa.
A small stack with a couple muskets, anothe pair of old units and some cat must be SW of Rheims to avoid surprises and start march to Tolosa.
The main stack will move to Gergovia and then to Tolosa. Once Tolosa falls, we can use the fast move of the muskets on Bibracte, being prepared to lose some.

Once healed we must take the cities on the East coast, always exploiting the 2 moves of the muskets. When those cities fall, Celtia is almost dust and we have what we really need, then it's only a matter of time.

We need a couple backup units in the north if Brennus has units in that area when we start.

 

[Shaandore]

I'm sure that you can time the research of Edu very well, it is quite likely that we will have one turn of not binary research, but that is fine.

Please keep on 0% until OU is ready. That time should be enough to get rid of University whipping unhappiness, and grow back one or two. Then as soon as gunpowder is in, (which should be increadibly fast with our new shiny universities, oxford and 100% slider) we can start heavy whipping, I think ~3 Musketeers/turn is doable. In 5 turns, we get 15 units, which should be enough to go on the offensive. We could go as far as 5 unhappy in our production cities (that would mean about 25 units) which should be enough to get the core celtic cities (Bibracte and everything on the way) and more.

Don't forget that the best defense is a good offense. So instead of sitting around in our cities, we want to attack in a way that the enemy can not get through our lines. We need good scouting for that, and about 2 muskets should stay home in strategic positions to be able to fend off an attack (some new whips could join them if there is real danger). If we have a good eye on Brennus' cities and units, then we can locate his stack and predict his moves. But this is a matter for the next TS I believe.

About the spice trade, it could be useful later when we start heavy whipping.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm sure that you can time the research of Edu very well, it is quite likely that we will have one turn of not binary research, but that is fine.

Please keep on 0% until OU is ready.

Since we need to arrive fast to GP, i don't know if this is the way to go. We'll be plenty of gold for the turns we spend building Unis and for the trade mission.

But before to discuss this matter, i'd like to have an esteem by ZPV, which already should have made some count on this. If he think OU can be built in 2-3 turns, i'll save the - virtual - ink and the effort.

Then, i know that the best defense is a good offense . In fact my proposal was to move troops on 3 paths to converge to Tolosa, avoiding any sally. We must keep an eye to the north anyway, i don't want Marseilles threatened by 2 units teleported in the tundra and defended with a warrior.

 

[ZPV]

I think it'll take 4 turns to get the GS, one to revolt+lightbulb then 5 at most (possibly 4) turns to build Oxford and the universities. It will be a little bit of work to get a uni from Tours, but it should be possible, putting two turns of hammers in before whipping.

Apache will be better at building a uni than Marseilles. This is unfortunate - I'd hoped we'd be able to just build a Barracks in Apache and let it grow - but Marseilles will be too slow.

 

[BLubmuz]

I started play, 3 turns. Now i need advice: Brennus will trade Aesthetics+Archery for CoL (which Ramesses has) +85 gold. It's a good trade IMO, but 85 gold can delay Edu. But i think it's worth, because i can't afford 3 turns of full research in a row.

Alternatively we can have Aesthetics alone for CoL + 10 gold.
or both his techs for CoL+ourWM+45g. I think that this is the way to go. He knows our land but the island and i don't care if he can see how Egypt is.

Ramessses founded 2 more cities (7 total) and Brennus is to 11.

Our 7 XP sword won, and he's now C3, what we need for the HE.

I'll ferry a warrior with settler and bring back to the mainland the 9+10 swords. The Tao missionary is enough to spawnbust until the settler is in place.

I also moved the exploring WB for the clams, there's nothing to see in the NE. 15 turns, but better than build a new one, i think.

The GM is born and with 9 scis in Rheims the GS is 2 turns away. QED.

 

[ZPV]

Good going so far!

I don't think we should trade for Aesthetics yet. Trading CoL to Brennus just takes away an excuse to avoid Monarchy->Feudalism. Selling our world map for gold would be good though.

 

[BLubmuz]

Good going so far!

I don't think we should trade for Aesthetics yet. Trading CoL to Brennus just takes away an excuse to avoid Monarchy->Feudalism. Selling our world map for gold would be good though.

I proposed it because i'm afraid he can be researching it. But you're right, if he does he will be delayed on LBs. I suppose his tech rate is very slow, see all the cities with unimproved land he has. On the opposite, Egypt seems well improved. BTW, Ramesses completed the Parthenon, IIRC just after i hit enter the first time.

What about trade for Archery? I checked while posting and Brennus can give it us for our WM +35 g and Ramesses offers all is gold - 40 - for our WM. So we can gain a tech we need and 5g.

Once this is decided i restart play.

 

[Folket]

I say we ignore archery. It is a dead end tech that gives us units that will soon be outdated. Selling maps for extra gold sounds good to me.

 

[Shaandore]

Agreeed. Don't trade, just sell the maps.

 

[BLubmuz]

I say we ignore archery. It is a dead end tech that gives us units that will soon be outdated. Selling maps for extra gold sounds good to me.

Archers maybe become outdated, but Xbows and Lbows no, for a good while.
Archers are cheap and effective defenders and LBs can compete with Riflemen in a city.

In any case, Brennus has no gold. And i can't see why ignore a tech we need, dead end or not. MT is another dead end tech, BTW.