SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[ZPV]

It's the early turns of spreading, and finishing off Wall Street, which are most helped by slavery.

Gergovia cannot generate another GP this golden age, except by cancelling the Orleans one and starving all the way down to size 5. Starvation from size 13 isn't ideal - it's ok for just two turns, but that's about it. We'd be much better served by growing the city to size 20+ and then starving during the next golden age. (Yes, we'll have to rely on some combination of luck and communism to get the GPs for it.)

edit: Your plan is fine up to Railroad.

 

[unclethrill]

Everything looks in order. Sorry I've been scarce lately. The baby has been sick.

 

[Shaandore]

@ZPV:

I think that I can micro Orleans to get its executive in 1 turn. We might have problem with getting the first exeutive in Bibracte though.

I like the Gergovia starving plan because it's important to get the NEXT great person. Without that we will have to wait long for our next golden age. You are right that we can't get the GP during this GA, but this is the way to get the most out of the golden age & pacifism bonus.

The argument for not starving could be that we are backwards with infra in Gergovia. We need a synagoge, monasteries etc. to get as many culture as we can. We are much more effective at size 20 with a levee in place than working food and slowbuilding everything.

I'm actually fine with growing, but rather for the argument above.

I consider your post as a green light because these questions are for the next miniset

EDIT: It looks like I'm blind, you are counting for the Communism GSpy. I'm convinced, we should grow.

@Unclethrill:

I hope the baby is better now. Boy or Girl?

 

[Folket]

I like the idea of starving Gergovia some more.

the PPP is fine with me.

 

[unclethrill]

A little girl ( my third girl and we also have a boy) and yes after a couple nights of maybe we have to take her to the emergency room, she seems to be on the mend. We are a solidly hippy family so we try to stay as far from conventional western medicine as possible and she was sick enough on Christmas Eve that a night in the emergency room was truly contemplated.

 

[Shaandore]

Here is the save, I'm too tired to write a report now.

I'm ready to push the next turn button after we switch to slavery and org. rel. (for the new cities) Or we starve Gergovia and stay in Caste a little longer. Saladin might beat us to Communism...

Report and PPP tomorrow.

@Unclethrill: You must be proud to have such a nice family!

 

[ZPV]

Good job so far Shaandore!

You can't revolt to anything until next turn. I'll see if I still feel the same way about Slavery/Caste System in the morning. Free Market should be a definite plus - we'll get 60+ commerce from foreign trade routes and another 2 per city from new trade routes, and 5 gold, increasing as Mining Inc spreads, from the corporation discount.

Something I forgot to mention is that you might want to build a privateer to interfere with Saladin's settler ships.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Something I forgot to mention is that you might want to build a privateer to interfere with Saladin's settler ships.

Niiiiice!

 

[Shaandore]

Good job so far Shaandore!

You can't revolt to anything until next turn. I'll see if I still feel the same way about Slavery/Caste System in the morning. Free Market should be a definite plus - we'll get 60+ commerce from foreign trade routes and another 2 per city from new trade routes, and 5 gold, increasing as Mining Inc spreads, from the corporation discount.

Something I forgot to mention is that you might want to build a privateer to interfere with Saladin's settler ships.

I was so tired yesterday that I forgot that we can't change civics for one more turn, and that we need free market too. I think we are lucky that the miniset ended

The Privateer is a good idea, Rheims and Chartres will build one right away. I built a drydock in Chartres (IIRC Folket or Mastiff's idea). We can build some more Privateers there and get some gold from blockades. The survivors will be useful later.

 

[Shaandore]

Civics, GP:

It is very likely that Saladin is researching Communism right now. If we stick to AL as next tech, we will lose the GSpy from communism.
If we can also go for communism next. We can trade Sci Meth + 110 gold for Gunpowder and Repl. parts with Saladin, then research Comunism in 4 turns. Problem is, we might still get beaten to it, and we can't really use communism that much. So I think that his is a bad idea.

We don't really need slavery. We get the first executive 2 turns from now, so slavery wouldn't help there. We also get the 2nd executive from Orelans in 1 turn. Orleans is set up to have massive overflow. We can also get nice OF by building a theater. So once it gets MI, it can produce the first two executives in 1 turn. With some micro and smart railroading we can spread very fast without slavery. (I think Lyons and Uzbek can get out their first executives in 1 turn as well)

The new cities are still too small to use the whip.

One more thing, I played around with Gergovia and we can get 670 GPP of 900 needed during the golden age by running 7 artists for 8 turns, and staying at size 11. (Buy starving for 8 turns down to size 3 we would get 846 GPP, but growing back and getting our infra would take too long IMO.)

If we switch out of Caste on last turn of GA, we could run 2 Artists in Gergovia to get a GA 10 turns after GA ends if we follow the above plan.

We need to decide this ASAP. I think that the best play here is to stay in Caste + Pacifism, stick to the plan of AL next, with the only civic change of FM next turn.

We can still get screwed if we get a GP from Thebes (38% chance...). If that happens, we might want to stay in Pacifism+Caste after GA ends.

 

[Shaandore]

PPP until AL:


New cities:
Settle the remaining sushi sites. (See screenshots) Continue spreading Hinduism.
New cities get Granary first, then Courthouse, then Lighthouse.

Use some Privateers to guard the city spots until we can settle them. Once they are settled, send the privateers to the other continent to get some money.


War:
West stack captures Alexandria, heals if needed, then moves to Giza. East stack captures Pi-Ramesses, then moves to Venta.

Try to produce some Machine guns and Galleons for later use. Check out SB's stack with the caravel.


Land improvemetns:
Build railroads in order to get Mining Inc. spread as fast as possible. Mines and lumbermills have a priority if I have a choice. When railroading put 2 workers together to get production bonus sooner.


Cities:
Bibracte finishes Wall street after first executive, then builds one more executive (for Thebes), then finishes Courthouse, and finally the library.

Orleans, Lyons, Uzbek, Thebes should get executives first in this order. They keep on producing executives to spread as fast as we can. Goal is to spread to enough cities so they can take over executive production when AL is researched.

Gergovia fills its food bar without growing in 3 turns, and then hires specialists (something other than what Thebes pops), starving for the rest of the golden age without shrinking in size.

Diplo:
We couldn't trade for Mining Inc. resources this turn, so we will have to do it next turn. If sitting bull accumulates >100 gold, sell him Theology. Or Philosophy if he gets Theology.

Civics:
Switch to FM next turn.

I can play once we figure out the civic changes and I get some green lights on PPP.
I think I will hand over the save once the GA ends. (that would be exactly 20 turns for me)

 

[ZPV]

Civics, GP:

It is very likely that Saladin is researching Communism right now. If we stick to AL as next tech, we will lose the GSpy from communism.
If we can also go for communism next. We can trade Sci Meth + 110 gold for Gunpowder and Repl. parts with Saladin, then research Comunism in 4 turns. Problem is, we might still get beaten to it, and we can't really use communism that much. So I think that his is a bad idea.

We don't really need slavery. We get the first executive 2 turns from now, so slavery wouldn't help there. We also get the 2nd executive from Orelans in 1 turn. Orleans is set up to have massive overflow. We can also get nice OF by building a theater. So once it gets MI, it can produce the first two executives in 1 turn. With some micro and smart railroading we can spread very fast without slavery. (I think Lyons and Uzbek can get out their first executives in 1 turn as well)

The new cities are still too small to use the whip.

One more thing, I played around with Gergovia and we can get 670 GPP of 900 needed during the golden age by running 7 artists for 8 turns, and staying at size 11. (Buy starving for 8 turns down to size 3 we would get 846 GPP, but growing back and getting our infra would take too long IMO.)

If we switch out of Caste on last turn of GA, we could run 2 Artists in Gergovia to get a GA 10 turns after GA ends if we follow the above plan.

We need to decide this ASAP. I think that the best play here is to stay in Caste + Pacifism, stick to the plan of AL next, with the only civic change of FM next turn.

We can still get screwed if we get a GP from Thebes (38% chance...). If that happens, we might want to stay in Pacifism+Caste after GA ends.

We'll lose the free specialist in Gergovia - so we could just as easily starve all the way down (i.e. run 11 specialists and the corn) this turn and then run 5 specialists in their native slots without Caste. It doesn't have to be a pure artist - just not a prophet or whatever else Thebes pops. (btw I expect we'll be able to get another GP out of Thebes).
You're right, we shouldn't put Communism ahead of AL.

However, taking another look at Bibracte, the reason to revolt to Slavery just isn't as compelling as I'd thought. It should be able to go Exec (2t) -> Wall St (1t) -> Exec (2t).
We'd only save a turn on that second executive, by whipping the first one - probably not worth it when we're running several workshops and would like to keep a clean GP pool in Gergovia.

With that in mind, I'd recommend growing Gergovia to a full food box (with avoid growth checked, I guess) in 3 turns, and then starve down to 0 food in three more turns, using a specialist that Thebes did not pop.

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The Caravel by Native America should look for Sitting Bull's stack. I expect it's probably in Poverty Point, and we want to keep an eye on it, so we'll be ready if it sets sail. (He now has Astronomy, so we'll want to knock it out of the water with Privateers if it comes for us.)
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If you can, run some Wealth somewhere, sometime. We don't want to stall our tech.
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Two workers per railroad tile, if possible. Comparing with two each doing their own tile, one gets done sooner (and could add a hammer in a city).
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If you can, send the second Executive from Bibracte to Thebes. We need to infect former Egyptian cities just as much as the original French ones.
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If anywhere needs a Drydock, it's Apache. The initial privateers can come from any old place, but aren't worth building a drydock for.

 

[BLubmuz]

Are we sure it's worth afford those crappy cities for 1 measly Sushi resource? If so, i think they are in the only possible places.

Then resuming our - possibly - last civics set: Representation, FS, Caste, FM, Pacifism.
I'm on the fence between Pacifism and OR, maybe with a slight preference for Pac.

Do you really think SB wants attack us? And he uses galleons not escorted by frigates? Crazy... but possible.

Why are we researching AL instead of Sushi techs? It's true that with those techs we have 3 WW almost useless (they continue to generate GPP) but we're losing the last 2 races, one of which could have gave us a cheap GAge. I also think we must start plan the Babylon invasion, not too late after Egypt is dead.

 

[Shaandore]

@ZPV:
I like your Gergovia plan. This way we have a better chance of popping a GP that we can use.

Native America & Caravel: good idea.

Wealth: I'm trying, but usually there are other things to do. We will have enough settlers soon, so I will be able to switch some cities back to wealth soon.

I have already built a drydock in Chartres, it's a nice prod city, I think that it will be useful. It will be able to produce a navy if neded, Apache should be left alone to produce land troops. (couple machine guns are always handy, they can act as MP in later wars)

Workers: got it.

I was already planning to send second Bib executive to Thebes. (Forgot to mention it in PPP)

@ALL:

Shall I trade for SciMeth now? We can get it now for relatively old techs (Repl parts, Gunpowder.) We might have to give something bigger to Saladin later if he researches one of these.

I can play tonight if I get some green lights. We now have 2 votes for only switching into FM next turn, but staying in Pacifism and Caste (If I read ZPV's post correctly.)

 

[Shaandore]

Are we sure it's worth afford those crappy cities for 1 measly Sushi resource? If so, i think they are in the only possible places.
IMO every city that we settle will be very useful with corporations. They will boost our economy nicely.


Then resuming our - possibly - last civics set: Representation, FS, Caste, FM, Pacifism.
I'm on the fence between Pacifism and OR, maybe with a slight preference for Pac.
We will definitely have at least one more golden age before the game ends. Slavery might be needed for a while to set up the new cities.

Do you really think SB wants attack us? And he uses galleons not escorted by frigates? Crazy... but possible.

Why are we researching AL instead of Sushi techs? It's true that with those techs we have 3 WW almost useless (they continue to generate GPP) but we're losing the last 2 races, one of which could have gave us a cheap GAge.
Phisycs is already lost. Al is very powerful because of factories. We get a ~1.4 multiplier on our production empire wise. It has a very good synergy with Mining. (AL is the tech that shoot us to space/ future tech, not Sci Meth.) I think that we still have a shot at Communism, since Saladin might be going after Physics too.

I also think we must start plan the Babylon invasion, not too late after Egypt is dead.
Good point. We will need rifling for that though, or at least a couple of Machine guns for stack defense. And lots of Galleons for chaining. I will try to produce some Machine guns and Galleons if I get the chance.

Answers in red.

 

[ZPV]

Ok, fair enough re: Chartres + Apache.

SciMeth will make generating another GP from Gergovia harder. I'd delay this until we're actually going to use it, even if we'll have to trade more for it later.

Yes, you understood me correctly on Caste System, Shaandore.

@Blubmuz:

AL is for factories and coal plants, and mostly a hammer economy going forward (although obviously keeping our towns and villages). Yes, we might lose a race because of this.

We can probably expect to run two more golden ages. One soonish (because our empire is still developing), and one at the very end (to speed up endgame research and power GP starvation).
We'll want OR and Slavery to get our new cities and factories online as quickly as possible. We'll then switch back to Caste+Pacif during the next GA.

Yes, the 1-seafood fishing villages are worth it. +0.5 food and +2 culture in all our Sushi cities, as well as natively 10+ commerce at size 1 (probably more since we have large mainland cities).

Yes, SB is planning to attack us. We were the only rival of his that he'd met when he went into WHEOOHRN mode, that he wasn't pleased or friendly towards. There might be a caravel escort, but not a frigate one without Chemistry.

Planning for Hammy? Ugh. There's lots of useful spending we can do on the home front in the next 10-20 turns, without building more units. I think that a war with Hammy soon would be a distraction rather than a profitable investment. After that, it'll be time to invade him.

 

[Shaandore]

I have edited the PPP, and waiting for green lights to play. (we have ~3 weeks left and MANY turns to play! They are also becoming quite long with 30+ cities...)

Will stop to report after AL is researched.

Any comments are still welcome of course. (And 'STOP! Don't play yet!' is an OK response if there is a major problem with the plan.)

@ZPV: I think that invasion should wait, but getting some Galleons from Chartres and Machine guns from Apache should be started now. I think that Apache should produce Military from now on indefinitely, except of course getting Factory + CoalPlant + Harbour(if needed). Getting the actual army should wait after Rifling.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

 

[ZPV]

You're good to go, Shaan.

I don't really think we need the galleons now, since we'll pick up production multipliers very soon, but since it's just one city it doesn't make too much of a difference to our economy, so go whichever way you feel like.

edit: Don't build too many machine guns, though. Cannons will likely do the bulk of the work against Hammy.

 

[BLubmuz]

We can probably expect to run two more golden ages. One soonish (because our empire is still developing), and one at the very end (to speed up endgame research and power GP starvation).
We'll want OR and Slavery to get our new cities and factories online as quickly as possible. We'll then switch back to Caste+Pacif during the next GA.

I'm worried by the fact that we can run out of time in generating GAs, needed for the LCs.

I also think that with MI slavery is all but useful. The less in the new cities, which are so small to cannot be whipped. At least until Sushi. But surely Sushi gives its best with Caste, where you can run almost endless specialists of the chosen kind.