SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

Shaandore.

I do not see any better sites then our islands.

Why would we build a courthouse if we do not have MI spread. If we do not have MI spread maintenance is only 7 + distance. Outside Lyons distance is 3-4.

If we have Mi spread we would start with library since it give a better return then courthouse.

How would the courthouse take 25 turns to complete?

 

[ZPV]

Inflation puts a 1.5* multiplier on maintenance, at the moment.
Looking at Akhetaten and Bordeaux, 26 gold seems a reasonable estimate of pre-inflation maintenance. It might differ from this by a couple of gold, but not much.

That means we need to cover 39gpt, 200 hammers, 75 gold, plus a little bit for civic upkeep.

We get 20hpt, 12gpt from Bibracte, and ~12cpt, plus one citizen doing something or other - let's assume 1hpt and 3bpt. The trade routes won't increase much unless the city is very far from our large cities.

That's 48 output - enough to cover the cost of the city in 30 turns.

Adding in a courthouse, (suppose it's during OR), add in another 20gpt but at a cost of 100 gold, and another 100 because it takes 5 turns to build, we're talking about 16 turns to cover the cost.

The window to build these cities is short - probably as long as your turnset and that's about it.

 

[Folket]

I did forget about inflation.

 

[Folket]

close city
100 gold settler
11 gold upkeep

8 gold trade routes
6 gold producation.

3% return.

100 gold settler
175 gold MI
31 gold upkeep

8 gold trade route
12 gold corp
25 gold production
5% return.
Not horrible but not good enough.

with library
100 gold settler
175 gold MI
4 turn upkeep 124
31 gold upkeep

12 gold corp
19 beakers
20 production
5% return.

island city
100 gold settler
15 gold upkeep

12 gold trade routes
6 gold production
3% return
Same returns.

With caste system new cities will give 5% return and almost 6% with corporation.

 

[Folket]

I changed my PPP to no more settlers.

Thanks for reminding me about inflation.

 

[Shaandore]

Shaandore.

I do not see any better sites then our islands.

Why would we build a courthouse if we do not have MI spread. If we do not have MI spread maintenance is only 7 + distance. Outside Lyons distance is 3-4.

If we have Mi spread we would start with library since it give a better return then courthouse.

How would the courthouse take 25 turns to complete?

You misunderstood my post in more than 1 way:
I said settle with MI spreading as soon as the city is established. After Courthouse is ready, we have 25 turns left to bring back the money we spent on this city until game ends.

But it doesn't matter now

 

[Folket]

I think that is a green light from Shaandore.

ZPV, Blubmuz?
Do you want any adjustments?

 

[ZPV]

Green light. Let's get this show on the road.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm not convinced on that ICS strategy. Maybe some city with both corps, but not much.

But before anything i need to see detailed plan until the end game with Dom+UN VCs (detailed as i described previously, not all the details, of course). Possibly compared, at least roughly, with different VC combinations i.e. Dom+Culture, Dom+Space, Space+Culture. ATM i'm a bit lost, mainly by the determination of someone. I prefer to not take any decision until i can make an informed decision.
I hope this will also avoid "oh My, if we only have thought to this" Detailed plans will in any case help the future sets. I know you are strong in calculations, so i rely on your ability

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Looks good to me. I'm here, I just don't have anything to add. If I see something, I'll point it out...

 

[ZPV]

I'm not convinced on that ICS strategy. Maybe some city with both corps, but not much.

But before anything i need to see detailed plan until the end game with Dom+UN VCs (detailed as i described previously, not all the details, of course). Possibly compared, at least roughly, with different VC combinations i.e. Dom+Culture, Dom+Space, Space+Culture. ATM i'm a bit lost, mainly by the determination of someone. I prefer to not take any decision until i can make an informed decision.
I hope this will also avoid "oh My, if we only have thought to this" Detailed plans will in any case help the future sets. I know you are strong in calculations, so i rely on your ability

In the end, I don't think we're building any more cities. We certainly won't be spamming them.

VCs:

Space is expensive and slow. Many thousands of beakers in extra techs, and a lot of turns building the parts and waiting for the spaceship to arrive.

Culture is expensive. We're already planning to generate a lot of culture from great artist culture bombs, so a third legendary city would be slow and difficult.

Dom is cheap because units are cheap, compared with techs. We'll just build some tanks and bombers (and settlers) to push us over the land limit. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

The UN is relatively cheap, compared with space or culture - just one tech and 1000 hammers. We'll take Hammy as a vassal after capturing a few cities, to meet the voting requirement.
-------------
I'll present detailed plans in my PPP of how we're going to satisfy these. I don't want to do it now, because Folket might manage cities differently, and we don't quite have a target date yet. I also don't need Folket to lay it out beforehand.

 

[Shaandore]

I'm not convinced on that ICS strategy. Maybe some city with both corps, but not much.

But before anything i need to see detailed plan until the end game with Dom+UN VCs (detailed as i described previously, not all the details, of course). Possibly compared, at least roughly, with different VC combinations i.e. Dom+Culture, Dom+Space, Space+Culture. ATM i'm a bit lost, mainly by the determination of someone. I prefer to not take any decision until i can make an informed decision.
I hope this will also avoid "oh My, if we only have thought to this" Detailed plans will in any case help the future sets. I know you are strong in calculations, so i rely on your ability

We agreed on not settling the red spots, so we are not going to use ICS.

For space, we need Fission, Fusion, Ecology, Fiber optics. The techs we could leave after these are Advanced Flight, Stealth, Future tech 1. They are roughly equal in tech costs, so we would be ready with SS techs about the same turn as with teching altogether if we don't go for space.

The SS itself needs at least 2-3 turns to complete after its last tech, and has to fly for 10 turns, resulting in a ~12 turn later finish time compared to UN+Dom. Thus space is clearly inferior to UN.

Culture is a tough question, I don't have the slightest idea about how much we can get in our key cities. It is affected by too many variables. We will get a lot of Gartists though. One thing is for sure, getting a third culture city is out of reach, I would bet it's worse than space. We can get ~10 GAs during golden age, and most of them would be used in Gergovia already. I don't see how we could get a third legendary without a long setup phase and going 100% culture slider for a lot of turns.

Even like this we might need to run 100% slider for a while.

Setting a target date is impossible because we don't know how many beakers we will be generating 10 or 20 turns from now.

 

[BLubmuz]

The UN victory is based on 2 assuptions:
1) Hammu will capitulate after the fall of his Capital and Dur (possibly in the same turn)
2) together we must have enough pop to win the Diplo Vic. vote, but we alone must stay under the threshold to avoid to not trigger the election

3) the dom victory will be achived the turn where you usually save and upload by attacking... who? Salad? raze his cities and spam settlers or culture bomb one? or both those options?

About the present TS, if the ICS question is solved, i think i can give my green light to Folket.

 

[Shaandore]

@Blub: those details should be in ZPV's and your PPP.

Here is a draft plan (based on mainly ZPV's posts):

The golden age will certainly be started in ZPV's turnset, because we still need to grow the megacities.

I think we agreed on Babylon as vassal. We take Dur-K. and Babylon, and possibly a couple more cities to vassal him. We don't liberate anything, that can wait until we see how we stand on Dom limit. Even with fully conquering Babylon, we can't reach domination, so it is safe.

Our next target could be china, they have a lot of land. We raze the cities, and send settlers in the area.

Around the time of the vote, we whip our cities so we are under 60% pop, but together with Babylon we are at more than 60%.

In the meantime we build the UN with the timetable that ZPV posted. If Saladin somehow gets to Mass Media sooner (we will se his research), then we build the UN sooner, and we will have a +-6 turn uncertainty on finish date.

After we win the vote, we settle cities in old Chinese land and reach Domination.

You might have missed this post.

We don't need Babylon to capitulate after 2 cities. It's enough if he capitulates before he is dead. No need for culture bombs (we need them for the legendaries anyway), only settlers.

We don't need to attack anybody around the time of the vote.

 

[Folket]

BlubMuz seems to want to review our decision on UN + dom. I have two green light but since I'm tired and BlubMuz asked for it I will delay playing to tomorrow morning.

 

[Shaandore]

The UN victory is based on 2 assuptions:
1) Hammu will capitulate after the fall of his Capital and Dur (possibly in the same turn)
2) together we must have enough pop to win the Diplo Vic. vote, but we alone must stay under the threshold to avoid to not trigger the election

3) the dom victory will be achived the turn where you usually save and upload by attacking... who? Salad? raze his cities and spam settlers or culture bomb one? or both those options?

About the present TS, if the ICS question is solved, i think i can give my green light to Folket.

You can go ahead as soon as you feel up to it.

 

[Folket]

oh, I did miss that post.

Now I'm even more tired. sorry.

 

[Folket]

Hello!

I played three turns and I would like to have some feedback.

I have a real problem keeping research up while still resolving our other priorities. It feels like I'm unable to keep up with expectations.

 

[Folket]

I have not been slow building industry in many soon to be mega cities as spending 10 turns and 400 hammer to get 21 hammers and 6 unhealth back does not seem to work.

In most cities a salon would pay for itself two times until the end of the game. But building them would paralyze our research. I have uild many theatres so to avoid polution in our mega cities so this turn the economy looks better then the earlier three turns.

 

[Folket]

I have also done tests with hammer overflows.

It turns out that the base hammer modifier is used so hammer overflow to gold is just as efficient as building gold. Which is good. We can now use Thebes to build things without loosing massive amount of gold.