SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks

[DwarfSleepy]

IMO late game really favors military victories because of the sheer power of nukes (you can destroy virtually an infinite number of units with just 3 nukes).

and not to mention a lot more fun

 

[Sengir]

That might be true BUT this is not a standard culture game and we're going all the way up to Future Tech. This means all the late game culture wonders, Eiffel Tower and Sid's Sushi are all available. Plus we'll have plenty of time to spread up to 7 religions to our legendaries and build the respective cathedrals. For this reason I think that Culture just might be one of the easier victory conditions.

And I don't really like Space as one of our victory conditions because of the 10 turns wait once we launch our space ship. Isn't it easier to just build a large enough force of nukes+paratroopers and take whole empires in 2-3 turns? IMO late game really favors military victories because of the sheer power of nukes (you can destroy virtually an infinite number of units with just 3 nukes).

Hmm you're quite right. Nukes shift the game in favor of conquest/dom. The possibility of vassals helps with this as well, as we should be able to cascade pretty fast.

 

[Ororo]

Here's my take on the objectives:

1)Humbaba --an advanced era barbarian unit -- must be dead (Thanks Leif). He is a real monster just like in BOTM 41, but now lives in a fairly secluded place.
2)You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities.
3)You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident.
4)You have learned Future Tech 1.
5)At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team.
6)You own at least three Holy Shrines
7)You own at least three Corporate Headquarters
8)You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage.
9)You fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination.
10) Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. **

1)One of the easiest. 2-3 nukes and he is down.
2)CRE trait, Lots of wonders, 3-7 cathedrals, hermitage, broadcast towers and the late game +50% culture wonders should all stack up nicely to ensure we get there in time. Sistine Chapel would be really helpful too. Something to keep in my is that Culture slider synergizes with Domination.
3)Really easy. Should probably abuse vassals for this one. Agree with Sengir that we shouldn't rely on Religious/UN victory. (but can take advantage of it if there's an opportunity)
4)Easy but will take a lot of time. We should check which techs we DON'T need to tech (probably crap like Advanced Flight). I think msot teams will abuse Corporations to get there faster. So should we.
5)Difficulty will rise with the number of turns that have passed but will once again fall down once we have acccess to nukes.
6)A little bit luck-dependant but hopefully we won't be forced to spawn a GP in the Modern Era I hope the AI will do the hard work for us.
7)Sid' Sushi is easy if we beeline Economics, the Great Scientist corp (Standard Ethanol?) is even easier since we'll likely spawn a ton of Great Scientists. Mining Inc might be tough but I've already mentioned that running 4 engineers from Ironworks+Forge should help with that. For this reason we should try to get a really early Ironworks. Also, if we get an early Great Engineer as a lucky spawn we should definitely save him.
8)The best choice here would be Iron Working. But it's the toughest one as well. The other the are much easier but are much more appealing to research ourselves (Physics for the Great Scientist, Astro for early intercontinental trade routes, observatories and ability to colonize islands - if there are any).
9)You can already tell that I'm strongly in favour of Culture + Conquest/Domination.
10) We'll just have to play fast...

 

[Ororo]

and not to mention a lot more fun

This. After all it's all about having fun. And what's better way to have fun than nuking the crap out fo the whole planet?

WOW. I must look like a terrible person right now.

 

[Ororo]

Hmm you're quite right. Nukes shift the game in favor of conquest/dom. The possibility of vassals helps with this as well, as we should be able to cascade pretty fast.

Exactly. Couple of days ago I've read that it's possible to capitulate the AI without ever taking any of their cities. Just nuking their lands alone provides sufficient war success.

EDIT: Here's the post I had in mind.

Yea the AI calculates loses more than the taking of cities. Capitulation is all based off your power versus theirs, and how many wins you have had. This is why it is possible to capitulate another continent purely by nuking them, and you don't even have to take cities. (I used to do it all the time. Getting nukes by 1600s then nuking the other continent to hell for a Conquest is one of the most fun things you can do on Continents.)

 

[DwarfSleepy]

Here's my take on the objectives:

[...]
8)You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage.
[...]
8)The best choice here would be Iron Working. But it's the toughest one as well. The other the are much easier but are much more appealing to research ourselves (Physics for the Great Scientist, Astro for early intercontinental trade routes, observatories and ability to colonize islands - if there are any).
[...]

I am absolutely NO expert on espionage, but I remember other teams in previous games specifically planting a city near the AI to gain cheap espionage missions, and also using religions for that... (mental note: should read up on this stuff). Also, do we need buildings that provide more points, or slider early on if we want to steal IW?

 

[Ororo]

Neither am I. However there's a good guide here on forums that should help with that:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252496

It's really hard to say what should be our source of EP points. And it doesn't have to be just buildings or slider. If there is a Stone nearby then TGW suddenly looks really attractive. It depends. All 3 options are viable with the right settings.
What we should do, though, is focus all our points on one target from the turn we meet him.

 

[pigswill]

One option for pinching IW early is getting Gwall for Gspy (and keeping barbs out) and getting alphabet soon for spies.

Obviously highly map dependant. The main decision with gwall is whether to aim to get a settler out first or delay expansion to make sure of getting the wonder.

edit: crosspost with Ororo.

It probably is an idea to get settled, decide on initial builds and techs and then we'll have some info for planning (maybe even building a test map if someone's keen and clever).

 

[nocho]

My preliminary thinking also led me to the conclusion that space probably is NOT one of the desirable VCs. Thinking "retro", ideally we fulfill both VCs the turn we finish Future Tech 1. Very likely the requirement of having to research FT1 is the determining condition in our finishing date, so the whole thing revolves around how quick you can get there. I'm pretty sure not all techs are needed to be able to research FT1, I think it simply has like 2 required techs before it, but not the requirement to have all techs in the bag. Should check it, but this might well include a tech needed for space. Hence if we avoid space we can avoid those techs. Also the 10 turn wait after launch is an issue, in the sense that in my (few) space victories I normally always end up with FT3 or FT4, which of course are redundant turns if the goal is to finish as soon as we have FT1. Besides, all hammers otherwise invested in space parts could be allocated to building research, only speeding up FT1 more.

Now I don't know at what date FT1 can be achieved if it were the only goal, but I guess we're looking at 1800AD or thereabouts soonest. Given that cultural victories normally go around, say, 1600AD, that surely gives some time to get to that 3rd legendary city. Of course here we cannot allocate all resources to cultural output, but still. The requirement of the corps leads me to think that through that we'll also generate a lot of extra culture, besides the things already mentioned (some late wonders, broadcast towers etc). Hence, right now I think culture with domination/conquest would be the quickest path. I find diplo awkward as well especially because of the timing and because of having to be nice. In the late game we're probably in such a commanding position that it will be easier to bully ourselves to victory, methinks.

 

[nocho]

I think we should try to steal IW, unless we're in a jungle infested area or we lack all other strategic resources. AIs are sure to research it soonish, so just concentrate EP on the nearest neighbour and get it when possible. Meanwhile concentrate on the aesthetics line and currency/CS, usually IW can wait. I don't think later we want to be hampered by having to wait for an AI to get to astro or physics either, obviously needing quite a bit more EPs as well.

 

[Ondskan]

I think this is rushing it a bit, with the limited information we have until now. I think we need to test a few thing in a test game. That test game can be made accurately once we have the starting save (and our fog-gazers have done their task). We can agree on the warrior move beforehand, and incorporate that info into the test game as well. The testing will reveal what short term actions are better on the settling front.

I agree that in a long game like this, a one or maybe two turn delay in settling could be worth it, depending on what we find. It should be something visible though IMO. I have found that map makers dislike rewarding teams that make wild guesses, so probably just moving for the sake of it will not pay off.

I still dont really get it. We are not allowed to open up this save / make copies and run it seperately as a test so how can a test map help us that much?

 

[Ororo]

Mostly to test our micromanagement. Worker turns, city builds, tech, wonder timings (rough idea) etc.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

I still dont really get it. We are not allowed to open up this save / make copies and run it seperately as a test so how can a test map help us that much?

What we do is create a save game ourselves which mimics the real game as close as possible. So you choose all known settings, and then go into worldbuilder to adapt the starting location to what's known. This is great for

1. Getting a big picture feel for what the setting play like
2. Planning the micromanagement, especially in the early game

Attached find my attempt at a test game. Unfortunately I messed up in the beginning and have it at marathon speed instead of normal, and cannot find an easy way to fix that without starting all the way at the beginning again. Any of you know how to do it?

I made the test game starting location mirrored to what the real game is, so not to accidentally mix up the two. I used Ororo's preliminary fog gazing.

Anyhow. It will be good if others make a few test games as well, so we can all play around

 

[nocho]

I seem to recall that you can open a worldbuilder save in notepad or any other text editor and change the speed there. EDIT: yes, that works. In the beginning change the line about speed to: Speed=GAMESPEED_NORMAL

Will hope to do some testing during the week.

 

[Sengir]

While you can change the speed the way nocho described, I seem to remember some issues regarding dates if you go that route. It might be better to start over...

 

[nocho]

I don't have the intention of making DS sweat a lot over this (well, maybe a bit ), but if you redo it I wouldn't mirror it. I understand why you did, but I'd rather put signs all over saying "TEST SAVE" or something (and put "REAL GAME" in the real one once it's up). When mirrored I'm afraid it'll lead to confusion with "move worker 1NW" when in reality that would be 1NE.

 

[pigswill]

For a test save it doesn't matter if the game ends at 400ad or whatever it is.

 

[Iagoc]

Can we afford to go GW and get a great spy merely to steal IW? I think we can get much more valuable Great People, and IW is rarely a priority unless you need jungle removed or you lack any other way to defend yourself. The hammers spend into the GW could also be used for something useful.

If I understand the thread posted by Ororo stealing IW will cost 25% more EP than it would cost us in beakers to research it. IIRC IW costs 200 beakers(?) so stealing it would cost us 250 EP? If these numbers are correct, and I have no clue if they are to bo honest, then I dont think we need to go out of our way to make this happen with the EP we will be getting from our palace, and perhaps some castles or even courthouses (depending on our need for IW).

 

[Sengir]

@pigswill: It doesn't, but it can get confusing, though I usually refer to turn numbers anyway.

 

[Ororo]

Can we afford to go GW and get a great spy merely to steal IW? I think we can get much more valuable Great People, and IW is rarely a priority unless you need jungle removed or you lack any other way to defend yourself. The hammers spend into the GW could also be used for something useful.

No of course not. But we can use him for much more than just IW. Monarchy, Maths, Construction...all sorts of stuff that AI likes to tech.