SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

[sossos]

Currency:
-trade routes
-building wealth
-selling resources for gold
-trading techs for gold
-begging gold
-other

The most important tech after BW in my book. Isolation can reduce its value, but who plays that anyway.

The same do I, however, quite a few special points on this map weaken the currency route.
1. GLH makes the additional routes unprofitable. Mostly they will be domestic route with 1C each. Is the Colossus not better? MC+Coloss is still cheaper than maths+currency.
2. building wealth is not an efficient way in most cases. As long as we got COL, hammers can be used to expand the empire(soldier/courthouse) with more rewards. Remember this is emperor level and normally we don't need to beeline a tech to get military advantage.
3. begging gold is useful at Deity, but hardly necessary at emperor level.
4. The leader is industious and the map is hemisphere, so the astronomy route is more favorable. We can get earlier forges(the Colossus and the GE), earlier harbor, earlier contact with AIs etc. Earlier trireme, Xbow and knights is also useful in expansion wars.

Currency can still be traded from other AIs.

 

[sossos]

Another Question: Next Great Person, do we care for the type of it? Do we want to guaranty a Great Scientist?

I don't care about the type. Great merchant is normally better than Great scientist to boost research except for the acadamy in a beauracratic capitol. Great prophet is needed in this game for shrines or to get christianism and AP.

However, do we still need a GE for the corporation?

What is the priority of Great People farm vs. Wine city?

I prefer the wine city for happiness, FPs. If we need to secure a GE, we may also need to push out the GP farm.

 

[Duckweed]

@sossos

Without copper, the fact of other major continent and the UB which ask for earlier Astro, the colossus is less attractive. You could use the partial slider to finish Writing and remain 0% slider on Math.

Are there more issues left in your plan to GLH? We can leave indirect issues to the next set. Our progress is lagging behind the schedule.

 

[sossos]

Here's the plan. C4 and C5 can be founded at T82 and T83.

T72 settler goes to 2N of wheat
chariot 1 moves 1 NE
Worker 2 builds a road (2 work turns loss here, but it'll save 1 work turn for worker 3, )
Capitol: trains a chariot
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles. build TGL
research writing with 0% slider

T73 chariot 1 moves 1 NE, chariot 2 moves 2 SW
100% slider
Paris: train warrior

T74 worker 2 moves 1 SE and chop the tree
C3 founded.build granary.take over the FP from C2
chariot 1 moves 1 NE and back,chariot 2 sentries
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles.
Paris: the 4th citizen put on 2f2c file
T75 Worker 1 moves 1 E, build the road. (save 1 turn for moving the settler from C2 to wine spot)
Orlean, whip the worker
chariot 1 moves 1S
T76 chariot 1 moves 2SW
worker 3 moves to the deer tile and camp.
Paris: the 5th citizen is put on 2F1H tile.
slider 50% (we need writing here because Egypt is connected)
T77 Writing discovered. slider 0%. research MC next. (Please vote here MC or Maths?)
open border to Egypt
worker 1 moves 1 S, builds a road and cancel.
chariot 1 goes back to C2
T78 C2: TGL completed. Train settler next for the 7->4 whip at T80.
chariot 2 goes to Paris for the 6->3 whip at T80.
worker 2 moves 1SE and 1S

 

[sossos]

@sossos

Without copper, the fact of other major continent and the UB which ask for earlier Astro, the colossus is less attractive. You could use the partial slider to finish Writing and remain 0% slider on Math.

Are there more issues left in your plan to GLH? We can leave indirect issues to the next set. Our progress is lagging behind the schedule.

The Colossus itself already brings more commerce than currency. It may also be completd earlier than currency considering the overall cost (beaker+hammer). Not to mention the gain from culture and GP point. Remember, the leader is industrious.

When we play to turn 110~115, we'll have both the Colossus and currency and several island cities. The advantage will be greater. Before the astronomy is discovered, we've earned much more than the investment(which is about 107 hammer normalized without copper or 68 hammer with copper)

 

[Duckweed]

Here's the plan. C4 and C5 can be founded at T82 and T83.

T72 settler goes to 2N of wheat
chariot 1 moves 1 NE

Keep heading north until you kill the known barbarian and then turn back to South.

Worker 2 builds a road (2 work turns loss here, but it'll save 1 work turn for worker 3, )

road on PH is useless, Goes to the Deer tile to camp

Capitol: trains a chariot
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles. build TGL

Improved tile is NOT always better than unimproved tile, such as 2FiH>4H when grows and sometime it's good to let the city grows 1 turn earlier.

research writing with 0% slider

T73 chariot 1 moves 1 NE, chariot 2 moves 2 SW
100% slider
Paris: train warrior

Stop worker2 Camp job

Orleans (switch the 4H tile to 2F1H tile so that it can grows to size 7

T74 worker 2 moves 1 SE and chop the tree
C3 founded.build granary.take over the FP from C2
chariot 1 moves 1 NE and back,chariot 2 sentries
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles. --NULL
Whip worker, 5th citizen on the new GH mine

Paris: the 4th citizen put on 2f2c file
T75 Worker 1 moves 1 E, build the road. (save 1 turn for moving the settler from C2 to wine spot)
Moves 1SE road and cancel, worker3 can do the job later

Orlean, whip the worker
Worker3 to Deer and Camp

chariot 1 moves 1S
T76
Worker1 move 1SE and cottage

chariot 1 moves 2SW
worker 3 moves to the deer tile and camp.
Paris: the 5th citizen is put on 2F1H tile.
slider 50% (we need writing here because Egypt is connected)
T77 Writing discovered. slider 0%. research MC next. (Please vote here MC or Maths?)
open border to Egypt

Please Don't OB with Egypt, we won't get any trade routes income now, it's one way benefit. OB with Brennus instead, we want the missionaries.

worker 1 moves 1 S, builds a road and cancel.
chariot 1 goes back to C2
T78 C2: TGL completed. Train settler next for the 7->4 whip at T80.
chariot 2 goes to Paris for the 6->3 whip at T80.
worker 2 moves 1SE and 1S

Please leave units unmoved this turn.

You don't need to give clear directions about 2 chariots now since only you know where they need to go to deal with the barbarians.

Chariot1: goes to gain 2xp and then heads to south if time allows
chariot2: stays between Orleans and Lyons so that it can go to Orleans in time.

Pause if the barbarians are severe, we need alternative micro then.

 

[sossos]

@Duckweed

1. improved tile is not always better, but here the 4H tile is used to build TGL with a 50% bonus.
2. with your worker micro, the road is not built so the wine city will be 1 turn later. worker 3 needs to complete the camp and the road for the health first. It will also lose 1 work turn for worker 3 to build the road to the wine city.
3. No babarians up till now. He may jump into the sea.

What I can accept is giving up the road on PH. This may bring TGL 1 turn earlier. To be tested.

 

[soundjata]

Green light for the plan and no strong opinion on the technology.

Worst case you can proceed until writing.

No one commented the idea to road south along the river and towards Brennus.
Reminder: it costs 15 worker turns + an escort chariot.

 

[Bebekija]

^^Well it seems that worker turns are scarce already as it is, so these 15 worker turns are a luxury that we don't have right now.
Besides, it will probably not be that long till we get coastal trade routes with the Celts


I'm not a big fan of the Colossus on this map. Right now, we're only working one water tile, and unless we find a bunch of islands to settle, I don't see us working much more in the future. Being able to build the colossus swiftly is good but if the benefit is 1C/turn, what's the point?
I have a bit of time this we so I hope I can manage to test it, maybe I'm missing something.


I'll run the PPP at home tonight and report ASAP

 

[Duckweed]

@Duckweed

1. improved tile is not always better, but here the 4H tile is used to build TGL with a 50% bonus.

4H=6H when building GLH, 2F1H>5H and let the city grow to size7 1 turn earlier and gain 1 worker turn, the benefit is so clear.

2. with your worker micro, the road is not built so the wine city will be 1 turn later. worker 3 needs to complete the camp and the road for the health first. It will also lose 1 work turn for worker 3 to build the road to the wine city.

No, we don't need to road the Deer tile since we will start the settler at size 6 and whip at size 7, no health issue.

3. No babarians up till now. He may jump into the sea.

Maybe you scare him away. Seriously you should send him 2 tiles a time, but not 1 tile
What I can accept is giving up the road on PH. This may bring TGL 1 turn earlier. To be tested.

No one commented the idea to road south along the river and towards Brennus.
Reminder: it costs 15 worker turns + an escort chariot.

He might has 4~5 cities at that time, the trade route income might worth 4~5C, which does not worth those worker turns. Moreover, he might has coastal city at that time and our WB or chariot might already clear the route.

BTW, how do you come up with 15 worker turns? Looks more needed to me.

 

[sossos]

Please Don't OB with Egypt, we won't get any trade routes income now, it's one way benefit. OB with Brennus instead, we want the missionaries.

@Duckweed

Why? If there are 3 Egypt cities, Egypt can get 3C more from overseas route and we can also get 3C. Don't we co-develop with them? It does not conflict with OB to Brennus either.

 

[sossos]

^^Well it seems that worker turns are scarce already as it is, so these 15 worker turns are a luxury that we don't have right now.
Besides, it will probably not be that long till we get coastal trade routes with the Celts


I'm not a big fan of the Colossus on this map. Right now, we're only working one water tile, and unless we find a bunch of islands to settle, I don't see us working much more in the future. Being able to build the colossus swiftly is good but if the benefit is 1C/turn, what's the point?
I have a bit of time this we so I hope I can manage to test it, maybe I'm missing something.


I'll run the PPP at home tonight and report ASAP

One of our goal is to have 2 legendary cities, and the Colossus can bring us 12 cultre 1000 years later. Is it not attractive enough?

Which turn will you start from, T72 or T78?

Bebe, I'll go out tomorrow. If you have time to play, you can play from T72. My plan is already there and you can choose either version, Duckweed's or mine or yours.

 

[sossos]

4H=6H when building GLH, 2F1H>5H and let the city grow to size7 1 turn earlier and gain 1 worker turn, the benefit is so clear.

@Duckweed

1 turn earlier is already included in the 2F1H>5H assessment. You just double count the benefit. To be fair, it should be a comparison between 2H vs 1 work turn.

On the other hand 1F is not always = 2H if happy cap is a problem. In that case, 1F=1H when you have to train worker/setter because of too much unhappiness. In Orleans, the food is too much to be supported by happiness recovery rate (10 turns), so 1F is normally less than 2H.

If you don't connect the deer, there's another worker turn loss. My preference on health is also because I want to build the Colossus at Orleans.

The chariot with 2tile/turn may be attacked by the warrior, then only 1xp can be gained. If there's an archer, the chariot may die.

 

[sossos]

Green light for the plan and no strong opinion on the technology.

Worst case you can proceed until writing.

No one commented the idea to road south along the river and towards Brennus.
Reminder: it costs 15 worker turns + an escort chariot.

This should be compared with other improvements. For example: 4 work turns of camping brings 3f/turn. 5 work turns of cottaging(FP) brings 1C/turn(more when muture), etc.

If all workers have worked on other improvements with higher priority, we need to consider the cost of a new worker (60h) to connect the road, then compare it with other investments like new city or library.

Moreover, as we've discoverd sailing, it's still a question that how many turns we can really gain if Brennus can be connected with us via coastal tiles or via Egypt in 30 turns. Maybe it's just a pull-in of 5~10 turns at most. Therefore it's more like an investment of 60h(worker)+30h (chariot) + 30C(unit cost of worker+chariot) to gain 20~40 C in 30 turns.

 

[sossos]

Here's the revised plan and the test save.

1. I still hope Duckweed can elaborate why we cannot open order to Egypt.
2. If we decide to open border and complete writing, shall we overflows the beakers to MC or Maths? I prefer MC to currency because of TGL, forge, GE , the Colossus, and trireme (sorted from high importance to low)

T72 settler goes to 2N of wheat
chariot 1 moves 1 NE
Worker 2 moves 1N camp
Capitol: trains a chariot
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles. build TGL
research writing with 0% slider

T73 chariot 1 moves 1 NE, chariot 2 moves 2 SW
100% slider
Paris: train warrior
worker 2 cancels the work

T74 worker 2 moves 1 SE and 1S and chop the tree
C3 founded.build granary.take over the FP from C2
chariot 1 moves 1 NE and back,chariot 2 sentries
C2: make sure all citizen are on improved tiles.
Paris: the 4th citizen put on 2f2c file
T75 Worker 1 moves 1 E, build the road. (save 1 turn for moving the settler from C2 to wine spot)
Orlean, whip the worker
chariot 1 moves 1S
T76 chariot 1 moves 2SW
worker 3 moves to the deer tile and camp.
Paris: the 5th citizen is put on 2F1H tile.
slider 50% (we need writing here because Egypt is connected)
T77 Writing discovered. slider 0%. research MC next. (Please vote here MC or Maths?)
open border to Egypt
worker 1 moves 1 S, builds a road and cancel.
chariot 1 goes back to C2
T78 C2: TGL completed. Train settler next for the 7->4 whip at T80.
chariot 2 goes to Paris for the 6->3 whip at T80.

 

[soundjata]

To answer you first question, Sossos.

If we open borders with Egypt now, Ramsy WILL get trade routes to us because HE scouted the coast between his empire and ours but we WON'T because WE haven't.

 

[sossos]

To answer you first question, Sossos.

If we open borders with Egypt now, Ramsy WILL get trade routes to us because HE scouted the coast between his empire and ours but we WON'T because WE haven't.

Yes, I think it's right. Thank you.

However, I still wonder why we don't allow Egypt research faster. We can trade with Egypt and Celtic and develop faster, can't we?

BTW, does it mean that Egypt is to the west? Egypt is connected but Celtic is not...

 

[kossin]

It's difficult to say from our limited map knowledge where Egypt is. West is as good a guess as any yep.

Egypt is a good candidate for absorption. If we slow down their tech, they might be easier to kill without Longbows. That's better than the few turns sooner of a tech that we might get in my opinion.

 

[Duckweed]

The Colossus itself already brings more commerce than currency. It may also be completd earlier than currency considering the overall cost (beaker+hammer). Not to mention the gain from culture and GP point. Remember, the leader is industrious.

When we play to turn 110~115, we'll have both the Colossus and currency and several island cities. The advantage will be greater. Before the astronomy is discovered, we've earned much more than the investment(which is about 107 hammer normalized without copper or 68 hammer with copper)

Currency provides those benefit without more investment. The colossus requires hammers investment, which is going to slow down our expansion. Moreover, how many water tiles are we going to working at that time? Math increases the tree value and opens the HG.

@Duckweed

1 turn earlier is already included in the 2F1H>5H assessment. You just double count the benefit. To be fair, it should be a comparison between 2H vs 1 work turn.

On the other hand 1F is not always = 2H if happy cap is a problem. In that case, 1F=1H when you have to train worker/setter because of too much unhappiness. In Orleans, the food is too much to be supported by happiness recovery rate (10 turns), so 1F is normally less than 2H.


Let's compare it in an easy way for you. I will whip the worker in the same turn as you, so in the last turn Orleans has 1 more pop which could work on the FP cottage, so that becomes the comparison of 2F1H + 3F1C vs 6H.

If you don't connect the deer, there's another worker turn loss. My preference on health is also because I want to build the Colossus at Orleans.

how there's another turn loss, we save 3 road turns in total.

The chariot with 2tile/turn may be attacked by the warrior, then only 1xp can be gained. If there's an archer, the chariot may die.

It's difficult to say from our limited map knowledge where Egypt is. West is as good a guess as any yep.

Egypt is a good candidate for absorption. If we slow down their tech, they might be easier to kill without Longbows. That's better than the few turns sooner of a tech that we might get in my opinion.

There are other reasons in my consideration. There's good chance that Ram will be Brennus's worst enemy and he might ask us to cancel trade with Ram, we might get Brennus to friendly soon with the shared religion and civic. Moreover, Ram is industrious, I don't want him getting the wonders that we want to build ourselves.

 

[sossos]

@Duckweed

Thank you for the explanation on the OB and the currency route. I'll keep writing incomplete.

Though I still don't agree to your analysis on the 2F1H advantages, I'll follow your instruction. At least I hope we are not later than Kakumeika.

@Bebe

I didn't see any of your plan, so I'll finish TGL first.