Not sure about Ram who is the better choice to give techs, but 99% that Brennus will. In that case, we can trade away CS.
@shakabrade
It's weekend, time to fly as a dragon!
SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Not sure about Ram who is the better choice to give techs, but 99% that Brennus will. In that case, we can trade away CS.
@shakabrade
It's weekend, time to fly as a dragon!
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Women... can't live without them... can't live with them
As Duckweed said, a test will be more helpful but take your time.
I can see you understand nature of the problem.
@Duckweed
I have a female dragon to handle here.
First moment possible is reserved for SGOTM. Can't promise anything better than that. 85% you will have test game and maybe PPP tonight. Don't intend to sleep much if everything goes well.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Thanks, soundjata, but too late.
This test has taken forever. I played like Calendar was traded on T135 and started MoM then. On T133, I switched build in Orleans to wealth to keep OF and chop for MoM.
Couldn't OF like Duckweed suggested. Simply too much OF and that'd cause some 1 pop whips. I avoided that by chopping Barracks and whipping Cats and both overflowing to Swords. Tours got its second sword from Chartres while Lyons got it from Grenoble.
Mars got carried away and built one extra Christ missionary. But that's no biggie. I even had one failed spread in test. I am thinking of bringing Poitiers warrior and Grenoble warrior to fight against barb cities. Don't want Brennus sneaking from somewhere stealing our city.
This test has taken forever. I played like Calendar was traded on T135 and started MoM then. On T133, I switched build in Orleans to wealth to keep OF and chop for MoM.
Couldn't OF like Duckweed suggested. Simply too much OF and that'd cause some 1 pop whips. I avoided that by chopping Barracks and whipping Cats and both overflowing to Swords. Tours got its second sword from Chartres while Lyons got it from Grenoble.
Mars got carried away and built one extra Christ missionary. But that's no biggie. I even had one failed spread in test. I am thinking of bringing Poitiers warrior and Grenoble warrior to fight against barb cities. Don't want Brennus sneaking from somewhere stealing our city.
Looks like a good start, but some work is needed.
You might have to juggle units some more to get the OF trick to work.
If there's a large OF to start with, dump it into Sword. Then start Rax, whip into sword, go to Cat, whip into sword. For cities that only have 1H base production, the trick should work.
Tile preferences? I see an Engineer for example.
Workers could be optimized a bit but I'm gonna leave that to Duckweed
Since Brennus has likely a bunch of Walls, don't go easy on Catapults
Starting a new unit is a good way to avoid 1-pop whips.
You might have to juggle units some more to get the OF trick to work.
If there's a large OF to start with, dump it into Sword. Then start Rax, whip into sword, go to Cat, whip into sword. For cities that only have 1H base production, the trick should work.
Tile preferences? I see an Engineer for example.
Workers could be optimized a bit but I'm gonna leave that to Duckweed
Since Brennus has likely a bunch of Walls, don't go easy on Catapults
Starting a new unit is a good way to avoid 1-pop whips.
Looks good. Some suggestions.
1. A little bit less catas, I'd expect ~10 catas in 2 stacks to invade Celtic. You could whip harder in Tours and Lyons
2. Most of the macemans are in the range of 1 whip, better to start them from fresh to 2 pop whip and then OF to catas or chariots
3. It seems that you complete granary in Poit naturally. Either 1 pop whip it or chop a forest to complete it. You can send 1 worker from Avi there.
4. It'd better to send 1 chariot to the south of the sugar barbarian city to prevent the workers from fleeing.
5. Start to hire specialists in Orleans (2F2C tiles to Eng and Sci), Any 2nd GP from Orleans would be useful soon.
6. Send galley 2 to western sea, we can scout further west
7. When could you finish MoM in Orleans if not failed, I'd usually WB those noise away in test game.
8. Try to complete Paper as soon as possible, Don't bother, I saw that you got a lots of cash from failed MoM so that we can start to chop away those forests and grow the cottages, you need to leave at least 1 worker around Paris.
1. A little bit less catas, I'd expect ~10 catas in 2 stacks to invade Celtic. You could whip harder in Tours and Lyons
2. Most of the macemans are in the range of 1 whip, better to start them from fresh to 2 pop whip and then OF to catas or chariots
3. It seems that you complete granary in Poit naturally. Either 1 pop whip it or chop a forest to complete it. You can send 1 worker from Avi there.
4. It'd better to send 1 chariot to the south of the sugar barbarian city to prevent the workers from fleeing.
5. Start to hire specialists in Orleans (2F2C tiles to Eng and Sci), Any 2nd GP from Orleans would be useful soon.
6. Send galley 2 to western sea, we can scout further west
7. When could you finish MoM in Orleans if not failed, I'd usually WB those noise away in test game.
8. Try to complete Paper as soon as possible, Don't bother, I saw that you got a lots of cash from failed MoM so that we can start to chop away those forests and grow the cottages, you need to leave at least 1 worker around Paris.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Looks like a good start, but some work is needed.
You might have to juggle units some more to get the OF trick to work.
If there's a large OF to start with, dump it into Sword. Then start Rax, whip into sword, go to Cat, whip into sword. For cities that only have 1H base production, the trick should work.
Problem is they have more than 1production and OF from whipped barracks is huge and gets more than 12
Tile preferences? I see an Engineer for example.
Workers could be optimized a bit but I'm gonna leave that to Duckweed
Assigning Engineer meant finishing Missionary 2T earlier. Since missionary can fail, my thoughts were it is better to have it earlier. Regarding workers, tile prechopped would better be road between Lyons and Tours. There is also most of the windmill near Lyons if you missed it (easy to miss if you don't hover over every single tile, or if I don't write that).
Since Brennus has likely a bunch of Walls, don't go easy on Catapults
Starting a new unit is a good way to avoid 1-pop whips.
Yeah, that were my thoughts too. Hence Maces that can't be 2 pop whipped. I wanted to OF another cat into Mace. It seems Duckweed doesn't share our view.
Looks good. Some suggestions.
1. A little bit less catas, I'd expect ~10 catas in 2 stacks to invade Celtic. You could whip harder in Tours and Lyons.
Tours and Lyons were whipped as much as they could have been to avoid 1 pop whips. But they'll get their round of whipping soon. We have 5 cats now, 1 can die attacking barb city, also we need one for barb island (or we could send Maces there). I am not sure about the total number of cats. Only 5 per stack? So no bombard, then collateral and finish the job in one turn. You might explain how you see the war. I usually send a lot of cats since they are harder to reinforce. Maces can come while we are losing time on siege.
2. Most of the macemans are in the range of 1 whip, better to start them from fresh to 2 pop whip and then OF to catas or chariots
It works fine with higher number of cats I had in mind.
3. It seems that you complete granary in Poit naturally. Actually, I didn't. It was 1 pop whipped.
4. It'd better to send 1 chariot to the south of the sugar barbarian city to prevent the workers from fleeing.
I placed it there so it could protect our worker roading sugar. Barb city could produce 4th Archer and send it to Poitiers (happened in test). If you know something I don't and Poitiers and its worker are safe, send chariot south is so much better.
5. Start to hire specialists in Orleans (2F2C tiles to Eng and Sci), Any 2nd GP from Orleans would be useful soon.
Can't really assign many except Engineer if I want whip/OF monasteries into MoM. After MoM is done or failed, we can let Orleans grow and assign all specialist slots.
6. Send galley 2 to western sea, we can scout further west
There'll be 3 unfogbusted tiles east then, but it seems Barb galleys really don't spawn so I'll do that.
7. When could you finish MoM in Orleans if not failed, I'd usually WB those noise away in test game.
660AD (T143), if Buddhist spread is successful.
8. Try to complete Paper as soon as possible, Don't bother, I saw that you got a lots of cash from failed MoM so that we can start to chop away those forests and grow the cottages, you need to leave at least 1 worker around Paris.
You can see there is a worker around Paris cottaging 2N. Or you meant one more from pigs/gems could have gone to Paris instead? Regarding fail gold, I don't intend to run any binary research. We could always get some more gold from AIs. I did it in test save because I wanted to bring your attention to failed MoM.
Regarding the whip in Tours and Lyons, you can complete construction next turn so that you can let OF to cat 1st, then bar->whip->sword->whip cat->sword. The idea is the same, but the order can be adjusted to achieve the same goal.
The engineer kossin referred is the one in Dij
If you whip the gra in Poit, why didn't I see the anger, it should be there within 10 turns.
You have 1 war and could send cat and sword to threat the city, so I don't see chariot is necessary there.
The engineer kossin referred is the one in Dij
If you whip the gra in Poit, why didn't I see the anger, it should be there within 10 turns.
You have 1 war and could send cat and sword to threat the city, so I don't see chariot is necessary there.
10 catapults is a reasonable amount to start the war. However, given we will sacrifice some of them when we're at bad odds, we might need more.
Handling OF is a pain... if you keep a calculator handy though, you can keep track of it and decide what to build next.
Take Tours for example:
T133 -- start sword: 12 OF + 2 base = 14 * 1.25 = 17
T134 -- start rax: 2 base = 2*1.5 = 3
T135 -- whip rax: 1 base + 60 whip = 61*1.5 = 91+3 = 94;; 94-50 = 44/1.5 = 29 OF
T136 -- resume sword: 17 + (29+1)*1.25 = 54;; 54-40 = 14/1.25 = 11 OF
T137 -- (11+2)*1.25 = 16 H -- put in either a new sword
T138 -- start catapult (2H)
T139 -- whip catapult 2 + (1+2*30)*1.25 = 78;; 78-50 = 28/1.25 = 23 OF
T140 -- OF to finish sword...
And so on...
T141 -- rax + 2 swords + Cat done. 4 builds in 8 turns is optimal.
If you want 2 Cats instead, try whipping sword into cat. Not sure if it works as well since I didn't try it.
~~~
I believe we could start considering Markets over libraries.
- the cost is 100H vs 36H (so 2 more pop)
- we get the improvement later
- no ability to run specialist for longer
+ we get 1
+ merchants
+At the moment 3g = 4b* research multipliers ::: ~3g:5b
+1C = 1.32b, 1C = 1g (but 83% of our gold goes to expenses)
I'll fiddle with cities a bit to see if what I'm thinking makes any sense
~~~
X-Post with Duckweed
Whipped on T133 (10)
T134 (9)
T133 + x = (10-x)
T143 (0)
~~~
EDIT: for fun, I removed all of ours libraries, and placed 2 markets instead (7*36 - 2*100 = 52H conservative) in Dijon and Chartres (not to skew too much)
With libraries, sustainable tech rate is 82b @ 0 g/t
With 2 markets, sustainable tech rate is 83b @ 0 g/t
Basically, even if we get more beaker multipliers, we can't really sustain a high slider anyway... what's the use.
Handling OF is a pain... if you keep a calculator handy though, you can keep track of it and decide what to build next.
Take Tours for example:
T133 -- start sword: 12 OF + 2 base = 14 * 1.25 = 17
T134 -- start rax: 2 base = 2*1.5 = 3
T135 -- whip rax: 1 base + 60 whip = 61*1.5 = 91+3 = 94;; 94-50 = 44/1.5 = 29 OF
T136 -- resume sword: 17 + (29+1)*1.25 = 54;; 54-40 = 14/1.25 = 11 OF
T137 -- (11+2)*1.25 = 16 H -- put in either a new sword
T138 -- start catapult (2H)
T139 -- whip catapult 2 + (1+2*30)*1.25 = 78;; 78-50 = 28/1.25 = 23 OF
T140 -- OF to finish sword...
And so on...
T141 -- rax + 2 swords + Cat done. 4 builds in 8 turns is optimal.
If you want 2 Cats instead, try whipping sword into cat. Not sure if it works as well since I didn't try it.
~~~
I believe we could start considering Markets over libraries.
- the cost is 100H vs 36H (so 2 more pop)
- we get the improvement later
- no ability to run specialist for longer
+ we get 1
+ merchants
+At the moment 3g = 4b* research multipliers ::: ~3g:5b
+1C = 1.32b, 1C = 1g (but 83% of our gold goes to expenses)
I'll fiddle with cities a bit to see if what I'm thinking makes any sense
~~~
X-Post with Duckweed
Whipped on T133 (10)
T134 (9)
T133 + x = (10-x)
T143 (0)
~~~
EDIT: for fun, I removed all of ours libraries, and placed 2 markets instead (7*36 - 2*100 = 52H conservative) in Dijon and Chartres (not to skew too much)
With libraries, sustainable tech rate is 82b @ 0 g/t
With 2 markets, sustainable tech rate is 83b @ 0 g/t
Basically, even if we get more beaker multipliers, we can't really sustain a high slider anyway... what's the use.
The iron can't be connected in T133, so you can't produce sword.
Ideally I'd like to have 6 catas in each stack since they can remove the wall defense in 2 turns, while the western city might not have wall, so 4 catas could do.
Edit: The libs seems better before Paper since those libs started in shakabrade's session can be effective immediately for researching Paper. After paper, we can pause the research for some time so that markets are much better.
Ideally I'd like to have 6 catas in each stack since they can remove the wall defense in 2 turns, while the western city might not have wall, so 4 catas could do.
Edit: The libs seems better before Paper since those libs started in shakabrade's session can be effective immediately for researching Paper. After paper, we can pause the research for some time so that markets are much better.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Regarding the whip in Tours and Lyons, you can complete construction next turn so that you can let OF to cat 1st, then bar->whip->sword->whip cat->sword. The idea is the same, but the order can be adjusted to achieve the same goal.
Please try that yourself. I fail to find the right combination which doesn't produce too much OF.
The engineer kossin referred is the one in Dij
That is obviously a mistake. But easily repairable. I somehow missed it.
If you whip the gra in Poit, why didn't I see the anger, it should be there within 10 turns.
133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 Did you get it?
You have 1 war and could send cat and sword to threat the city, so I don't see chariot is necessary there.
You are 100% right.
Please can you answer the catapult number issue I raised before. I am still not sure we can manage without cats here. There are some walls as kossin said.
Edit: xpost, obviously. Had text in progress and couldn't reload...
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Did you take capture gold into consideration? Also, there is build wealth option. And markets are so expensive. You can transform a bit of the hammer difference to wealth.
Markets get us some happiness though.
Regarding whip order, as Duckweed said, no Iron until T134
.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
double post
Capture gold will mostly pay bills for supporting troops outside our territory.
Building wealth at the moment is not a very attractive option when so many things can be built... there is no must-get-to tech right now. Liberalism/Astronomy/Banking maybe, but they're pretty far off.
No Iron until T134? Guess the test game is misleading
I'll check OF again in a bit.
Building wealth at the moment is not a very attractive option when so many things can be built... there is no must-get-to tech right now. Liberalism/Astronomy/Banking maybe, but they're pretty far off.
No Iron until T134? Guess the test game is misleading
I'll check OF again in a bit.Checked the real game again, you can't whip gra in Poit in short time.
You are right in Tours, the OF is out of control.
We only need to consider the number of cats needed in the 1st 2 cities. We will have level 3 macemans after the initial battles, which is enough for the rest kills. Moreover, we won't stop producing catas, the forces in the front are slow and need to recover so that the reinforcements can easily catch up.
Edit: When war with macemans without facing LBs, cats are mainly for removing defense, macemans are strong enough to kill without collateral damage.
You are right in Tours, the OF is out of control.
We only need to consider the number of cats needed in the 1st 2 cities. We will have level 3 macemans after the initial battles, which is enough for the rest kills. Moreover, we won't stop producing catas, the forces in the front are slow and need to recover so that the reinforcements can easily catch up.
Edit: When war with macemans without facing LBs, cats are mainly for removing defense, macemans are strong enough to kill without collateral damage.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Capture gold will mostly pay bills for supporting troops outside our territory.
True that. I am not against Markets. I do build them sometimes. But I am usually more certain about their worth. Paris and Orl are good Market candidates for me.
Building wealth at the moment is not a very attractive option when so many things can be built... there is no must-get-to tech right now. Liberalism/Astronomy/Banking maybe, but they're pretty far off.
You are right. And some of those island cities have no production worth mentioning.
No Iron until T134? Guess the test game is misleading
Not only we can't have it T133, but we don't want it. there are many warriors to be finished.
Tours: then let the initial OF into an Archer for future MP or a useful building (Market, CH). Delaying production by 1 turn is better (I think) than 1-pop whips.
Are you going to run another test or play with the various suggestions?
Are you going to run another test or play with the various suggestions?
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
No worries, chop is good. Sossos already put the worker on PH forest so I better use it.
I'd love to test everything, but have no time for that. PPP will take me at least 2 hours to write. Remember delaying attack in Tours by one turn delays attacking island barb city too. I am going to try getting MoM T143 even if Buddhism spread fails, will also change some worker actions, and also send chariots south so we capture all the barb workers, as Duckweed suggested.
Glad you see that.
Regarding barb cites and chariots: sugar city chariot will go 1E of it. Why? Because there is mountain 2S from it preventing worker from fleeing and also chariot can attack without crossing the river.
If pig barb city gets some worker, I'll send chariot 1SE of pig. Otherwise, I'll keep it in our borders to save on unit supply.
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