SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

[Duckweed]

Do we want to wait for Ram to complete the Nat to trade it before DOW, or just DOW him when we are ready? Both choice seem pretty close.

We will lose 6 diplomatic bonus, but with the increasing shared religion and civic bonus, Ram could still be friendly with us after the war to provide his unique techs.

I think we should completely kill Ram to eliminate the motherland issue, so the only choice to me is the revolt mission. I think we should switch EP on other AIs now, Hammy seems a good choice after we meet him.

My intentions behind the build in my play and some thought of next session.

1. The 2 BMs in Paris and Orleans are for Sal and Ram since I hope they could spread Bud for us, therefore the eastern caravel should come back to pickup a BM.

2. I sent the GM to Poit and produce a galleon in Avi for the purpose of send it to Babylon as what kossin pointed out

3. I think we should not whip any more buildings in the rest of GA since each 2 citizens will contribute at least 6C and there is rarely any building will give more, so better to wait for the OR bonus after GA

4. How long would be the next stop, kossin mentioned when we meet Hammy, I think it won't matter at that point since his tech situation won't affect any of our choice. How about the last turn of GA?

5. What's your opinion of the location of national wonders? sossos. My thought is

IW and WS in Bib
FP in Visigoth
Moai: It's a wonder mainly for failed cash, so that it's better to dump the big OF to Moai whenever any city whip buildings like CM.

6. What's your plan of the war, mainly the coming war with Ram. sossos, How do you plan the build and the war logistics.

 

[kossin]

Will we even be ready to DoW Ram in 11 turns?
We won't be whipping much for the remainder of GA, so that means not many extra troops are available. (5 turns of production + movement)

I support completely killing off Ram. Cities on our continent should be as productive as can be and worrying about motherland happiness is a pain.

EP: to me, it all depends on which AI we want to conquer on the other continent. We might get a few revolts out of that AI or otherwise keep the EP for late-game missions.

 

[sossos]

Here's my collection from your posts to generate the plan for the next 6 turns before we meet Hammy. Maybe it'll be shorter if we find some Hammy's units along the shore line. On the other hand we'll also end the GA and get the next GP in 6 turns, so T171 is the check point.


Tech/Diplo plan:

slider 0% and on Edu.
EP on Hammy.
Vote Ram for Engineering
Get Ram's other techs via war.
May build relationship with Saladin and Qin for the final diplo victory. One of them will be the No. 2 and the other needs to vote for us. I assume that all other AIs will hate us if we take their resources and juicy lands/wonders away. Any comment on this?

War plan:

Do we want to wait for Ram to complete the Nat to trade it before DOW? I choose to DOW as long as we are ready.
The war vs Brennus should be ended in 6 turns while the 3 cities can be attacked the same time.
The war against Ram is after the checkpoint, but the preparation should be started now. My route is heading Memphis and Thebes directly after conquering Pi, then seperate the force to sweep the north and the south. Leave a city to destroy 10 turns later.

Build plan:

not whip any more buildings in the rest of GA--yes, in most cases
IW and WS in Bib----my point is that it can be decided later after we get the Tech.
FP in Visigoth---fine
Moai: It's a wonder mainly for failed cash---When will it be constructed? If it will be constructed 30 turns later, I would rather to expend the OF on other investments which can bring faster return. Most of the buildings return in 30 turns.


Unit plan
The eastern caravel should come back to pickup a BM.
GM to Poit and produce a galleon in Avi for the purpose of send it to Babylon.
I'm not sure whether the pike at Lyon can arrive at the battle field on time. I think the galleon needs to hand over the GM to the caravel at the ocean and come back to send some soldiers across the west bay.
1~2 pike and 1~2 LB might be needed since Ram has both HA and Mace. It's also difficult to disconnect his strategic resources.
Galleon is nice to have but I may not sacrifice infra for it. The war on Ram is mainly for the two cities at inner land.

Settler/worker plan
The worker# should be enough. war>resource>river tiles>others. Few posts are related to this as it'smainly at micro level. Please don't hesitate to highlight if there's something important.
I may settle once some island with sushi resouce is discovered.

 

[Duckweed]

I'm still undecided the way of the war with Ram, besides sossos' way of marching through land route. How's about shipping with galleons.

We need about 10 galleons for 2 stacks to land the city NW of Thebes and NE of Eleph, we could capture his best 4 cities in ~4 turns this way. The problem I encountered during my play was how fast Brennus was able to produce troops in war time, I killed more than 50 units for capturing 6 cities. Ram might be weaker in troop spamming, but he has far more advanced units. If we invade through land route, we might end with capturing Thebes and Memphis in slower time.

The detailed plan would like this

2 pikes for defending new captured cities from any city
4 trebs from Lyons and Tours,
10 galleons from Rouen, Avi, Chart, Poit

compared with earlier Thebes and Memphis, they have to be sacrificed.

Another issue is that do we want to keep the other 2 cities from Brennus if they don't have any resource.

May build relationship with Saladin and Qin for the final diplo victory. One of them will be the No. 2 and the other needs to vote for us. I assume that all other AIs will hate us if we take their resources and juicy lands/wonders away. Any comment on this?

No need to please any other AI, our vassals will vote for us.

Build plan:
Moai: It's a wonder mainly for failed cash---When will it be constructed? If it will be constructed 30 turns later, I would rather to expend the OF on other investments which can bring faster return. Most of the buildings return in 30 turns.

You don't need to keep on building Moai in any city, just dump the OF, you can't find any other hammer investment better than this.

Unit plan
1~2 pike and 1~2 LB might be needed since Ram has both HA and Mace. It's also difficult to disconnect his strategic resources.

We have 1 xBow and a combat Mace, that's more than enough for stack defense, especially when our stack is far stronger, the only thing need to worry about the surprise attack from HAs and WCs.

Settler/worker plan
The worker# should be enough. war>resource>river tiles>others. Few posts are related to this as it'smainly at micro level. Please don't hesitate to highlight if there's something important.

It's important to keep all the forests in Bib for future use. One of the reasons why I mentioned about the national wonders is that it decides what improvements you will lay down in those cities.

 

[sossos]

@DW

The problem is that it takes more time to prepare the amphibious war to move the units onto the galleons and carry them to the NW of elephantine. The war progress is faster but the war preparation is longer. Maybe you still want to trade the Nationalism?

Ram is mainly a builder, so I think he won't whip as crazy as Brennus.

I don't reject the idea to attack from the NW, but I may just whip enough galleons to move the land units trained in the developed cities.

 

[Duckweed]

If we end with almost the same time at capturing Thebes and Memphis, then galleon war is better since we keep the economical advantage for longer peaceful time, such as earlier Nat and hence Taj, trade route income and resource deal, and free missionaries.

 

[sossos]

@DW

The vassal will increase our lnlyand% and lower our yield per tile. (Edit: it may pay off if it can contribute the resource for the 40+ cities of the lord)

For Moai, eventually we need a city to complete it to get the failed gold. When?

The LB and Pike is mainly to defend Memphis and Thebes since definitely we need 1~2 units to garrison. Let Mace to do this tedious job?

Forests will be reserved, mostly it's at my last priority unless I want to chop a wonder or a granary.

 

[Duckweed]

@DW

The vassal will increase our land% and lower our yield per tile.

We need some vassals for domination anyway, they also give us happiness.

For Moai, eventually we need a city to complete it to get the failed gold. When?

Not sure when, but should be when we start rushing to Medicine.

The LB and Pike is mainly to defend Memphis and Thebes since definitely we need 1~2 units to garrison. Let Mace to do this tedious job?

1 Pike each city should be enough, maces are enough for stack defense, as I said, AI don't dare to attack if your stack is stronger than his defending forces.

 

[sossos]

If we end with almost the same time at capturing Thebes and Memphis, then galleon war is better since we keep the economical advantage for longer peaceful time, such as earlier Nat and hence Taj, trade route income and resource deal, and free missionaries.

So this is a trade-off between 10 gallens (800h) vs 4~5 turns of war time (11C/turn of route income with a modifier of 1.5 + 6 gold of trade income) + 4~5 missionaries (200 h)

BTW, I just find that we trade 3 resources with Ram for 6 gold. Maybe this is why he researches so fast.

Can we really get Nat if it's unique to Ram? This may be the decisive factor.

 

[sossos]

1 Pike each city should be enough, maces are enough for stack defense, as I said, AI don't dare to attack if your stack is stronger than his defending forces.

I don't worry about the stacks, but how about the cities? After we conquer the two heart cities, we won't destroy the improvements around the cities. Right? Then we need some units to defend the city when mace and sieges are moving here and there.

 

[Duckweed]

The galleons are needed for inter-continent war, so they are not wasted. Yes, we should be able to get Nat from Ram in the 1st turn since he can't build it in the beginning of the turn.

How's your opinion about whether to keep the other 2 cities from Brennus?
What do you want to offer to trade Eng?

 

[Duckweed]

I don't worry about the stacks, but how about the cities? After we conquer the two heart cities, we won't destroy the improvements around the cities. Right? Then we need some units to defend the city when mace and sieges are moving here and there.

As I said, defend with 1 pike is enough. our stack are still nearby to clean anything come across. Once the stack enters the BFC of another city, anything in that city will remain inside and won't go out. The prerequisite is that the number of city takers are more than the number of defending units.

 

[sossos]

The galleons are needed for inter-continent war, so they are not wasted. Yes, we should be able to get Nat from Ram in the 1st turn since he can't build it in the beginning of the turn.

If we are sure to get Nat, I think I'm OK to delay the attack.

How's your opinion about whether to keep the other 2 cities from Brennus?

What do you want to offer to trade Eng?

I think I have no choice. I can only trade paper and optics for engineering. It does not impact that much as we are gonna say "good-bye" to hime soon.

It is just for "motherland" unhappiness to eliminate Brennus. The two cities are nothing.

It's still a question whether to leave Ram a city to squeeze out all his techs. Maybe not if we can get the techs else where.

 

[sossos]

As I said, defend with 1 pike is enough. our stack are still nearby to clean anything come across. Once the stack enters the BFC of another city, anything in that city will remain inside and won't go out. The prerequisite is that the number of city takers are more than the number of defending units.

Yes, but Memphis and Thebes will be threatened by cities from all directions. A pike only may be a lure to Ram's Maces. How about building 1 LB instead of 1 Pike? (I know you've queued 1 spear so this has to be trained)

 

[Duckweed]

I think I have no choice. I can only trade paper and optics for engineering. It does not impact that much as we are gonna say "good-bye" to hime soon.

These 2 techs are not enough, we need to offer either map or cash.

It is just for "motherland" unhappiness to eliminate Brennus. The two cities are nothing.

You did not answer the question, I'm undecided on this as well. Edit: maybe you did not get my question "whether to raze them if no resources".

It's still a question whether to leave Ram a city to squeeze out all his techs. Maybe not if we can get the techs else where.

We will get Ram's tech before we kill him since he will still be friendly with us even after the DOW.

Yes, but Memphis and Thebes will be threatened by cities from all directions. A pike only may be a lure to Ram's Maces. How about building 1 LB instead of 1 Pike? (I know you've queued 1 spear so this has to be trained)

How? we will capture Ele and the city NW of Thebes 1st. Moreover, not all the units will move with the stack, usually the wounded units will recover in place and the siege units and a couple of defenders will go ahead.

 

[sossos]

We will get Ram's tech before we kill him since he will still be friendly with us even after the DOW.



How? we will capture Ele and the city NW of Thebes 1st. Moreover, not all the units will move with the stack, usually the wounded units will recover in place and the siege units and a couple of defenders will go ahead.

I gave up the thought to raze because

1. Because of the culture expansion, it cannot free us many lands(<10 tiles) by razing the two coastal cities. All coastal tiles are more than welcome as they are not counted to break the dom limit.
2. In short term, the 2 cities can bring net gain.

 

[Duckweed]

When I settled the new island city, which is probably the same distance as Brennus cities and it breeds 4g in GA, without GA, it's 6g, therefore, before the new city get CH, we will pay 6g for it. The city south of Vis is better since it has 2 forests to be chopped, the other city will take extremely long time to get CH if no resources. Are you sure now? How's other's opinions?

 

[soundjata]

I would raze both except if southernmost (Isca) has some food

 

[kossin]

Raze crap cities, let overseas AI settle them, we can use them as trap cities to influence their civics/religion, which is much better.

 

[soundjata]

I suggest starting some harbors here and there, for Marseilles and Rheims instead of wealth for example.
Sushi <> health needed.