SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

Fired up the game and had a look.

:eek:

+5:gold: at 0% research, with 3:gold: in the coffers. Founding more cities now is madness IMO. Another city will put us over the line and kill us. We are about to start a war and need more units, not more cities and maintenance. We'll get plenty of the latter from more units.

As feared Mansa has a zillion techs on us. Right now he can tech Civil Service, Machinery or Feudalism. We need to go for his throat, and fast. One thing I've learned (but am still not good enough at) from stepping up to Immortal is that we can't do everything. When we are planning war, then that is what we do. Cities and techs can wait. So I say we go into full-on war mode, pump out units, and kill Mansa. Well, leave him with one (or two) city and get some techs from him. We need it badly, because our tech rate will stink for a long time.

The red helper city would be smack in the middle of the jungle, and we probably are a bit short on workers as it is. I don't think it's a good idea. Not furrryfish either. We can set up that later, at the earliest when we have some conquest gold. We simply can't afford more cities now, and won't get the +1:) from it anyway as we lack calendar.Okay, that was a brainfart, but I still don't think we can afford it. It won't get extra tile yields either; I think it is still 2F1H1C.

He has 6 cities, and we can see 4. There is probably another NW of his capital (great land) and someplace west of Horses. Djenne is on a hill, so we will need a good lot of catas. After capturing Djenne, we can hopefully move into his mainland and take Timbuktu and Kumbi, and I'd also like his city NW of Timbuktu. Then we split up and take his satellite cities in a short final war after replenishing our troops and the cease fire expiration. With taking his 4 main cities, we should get a good amount of techs I hope. But we need to take Djenne without too heavy losses (war success), so we need to bomb it down, at least some.

So in my opinion, we need to go full-on war mode NOW, and declare when we have some more swords and catas.

Not looked too closely on micro, but I'd like the chop in Prague into military instead of a Rathaus (it won't save us that much), and start working the greenhill instead of the grassland. Maybe it was to time growth with anger expiration, but we need to work our best tiles and pump out units.

Since we'll be on 0% for a lot over the next many turns, whipping the market in Vienna makes sense. But wait another turn so it regrows right away. Rathouses in Augsburg and Prague will save us about 8:gold:, quite a bit, but military is more important now. We can whip them later.

We'll walk on Djenne and it will be expensive, and we probably can't take him by surprise due to his culture spread. May be a good idea with another defender in horse and silver, just in case he tries something unfunny form his satellites.

We actually have a decent amount of troops, but need more catas. This means we should be able to start the war fairly soon, if we want.

*raises the war banner*
 
It isn't that bad, one more city could be okay if we can get one or two rathauses and set a city on wealth for just a few turns. BUT you are right that it would be dancing on the edge, and would probably slow our war effort.

So waiting a few turns to settle makes sense. Let's get Mansa's first city captured first. Did he shrine BTW?

What we really need to think about is what cities we keep. I imagine that with the exception of Mansa's 2-3 core cities his land is just as badly jungled as ours, so we can't afford to keep his cities unless they have great infra and cleared jungle. We will most likely end up razing at least half the cities we capture. (I'm just writing this because in the last game we forgot to raze some cities)
 
I think that the only city to raze is the one we can partially see 4-5 W of our horses.

Djenne, Timbu and Kumbi are great/goo cities, Walata is not bad. Then, if he actually has a city on his W coast, that is damn good.

So OK, i'll move the settler in Aachen and wait to use it until my first break.

When the 3 new cats are in place - or at least on route - i'll move to war.

Time to use warcry. Pity as Frace there was "Montjoie St. Denis"... WTH had HRE? Go on Charlie?

Pangea is right, the first thing to do is some (many) citizen reassignments.
 
Doesn't look like he has shrined it, only the Buddhist gone so far.

We'll get some cities in the war anyway, so I think we should simply postpone for a while, not just a couple turns. If we are to settle a city though, I think furryfish is better than a jungled helper city we need lots of worker turns into to make decent. Furryfish is jungled as well btw, but at least it will be good once we clear it out a bit, and it has a lot of resources.

Think +5:gold at 0% is very dangerous territory though, and would much rather we focus on crushing Mansa's core than expanding ourselves. We'll have the continent to ourselves sooner or later anyway, and the spots are not in danger. The sooner we start killing him, the better.

Once the new cities get online, maintenance will further shoot up, and I'd like us to recover before pigs fly :D Wealth can of course help if we get in dire straits.
 
I think that the only city to raze is the one we can partially see 4-5 W of our horses.

Djenne, Timbu and Kumbi are great/goo cities, Walata is not bad. Then, if he actually has a city on his W coast, that is damn good.

I'm 99% sure he has one on the west coast (100% really :D). According to the score chart he has 6 cities, so it has to be there, unless has been a really dope and put it west of copper SW of Walata. I seriously doubt that.

Walata has nothing in inner ring, but apart from that it's okay. The others are killer stuff. Agree we should raze whatever is west of horse.
 
Okay, I'm on the fence on cottage helper. Both arguments make sense. One thing for sure, without CH and war gold, we can't afford ANY new cities.
 
Okay, I'm on the fence on cottage helper. Both arguments make sense. One thing for sure, without CH and war gold, we can't afford ANY new cities.
Sounds better ;)
Now that we some sort of consensus and expcetionally (being Saturday) i'm not out for dinner i can play :D
 
I think we should worry about new cities later. We'll have enough on our hands with Mansa... let's take his cities first!
 
I think we should worry about new cities later. We'll have enough on our hands with Mansa... let's take his cities first!
Done!

Well, i'm on turn 109 and just took Timbu. I've lost 3 cats and 1 sword to take both with just a light bombardment first. Unfortunately Djenne arrived totally empty and Timbu with just granary and Academy, despite i've seen a CH while attacking.

Djenne was defended by 2 Skirm+ 1 axe and Timbu 2 skirm, 1 axe, 1 chariot and 1 cat.
I also killed a scout E of our territory another one near Timbu and a chariot moving there, so we got our first GG (imperialistic trait) and a chariot waiting in Aachen beacuse i fear the skirmisher near the furs. There's an axe ready in 3 turns in Aachen, so the chariot can move next turn to be attached to the GG as superhealer. In any case, Mansa is almost gone, it's just a matter of time.

There should be a city W or NW of Timbu and i think i must capture it before Kumbi, to not have its culture block Timbu to work its mature cottages.

A worker is improving iron near Florence, which expanded its borders this turn. The galley was already 1S, so here is what our chariot can see:
Spoiler :
attachment.php
A city there is worth its weight in gold, literally. I even think we can settle it, because i think we can see the 3rd borders of the city we can guess. Unfortunately Surya is annoyed because he's the Buddhist founder, so he won't give us OB nor trade anything. Only a city on the coast 1SW of gold can open a trade route once it expands its borders.
I think it's worth to move some troops to protect that city and to move the settler we have there quickly there're 2 resources: a rare (in this map) gold and clams.

Surya has 6 techs we can see, but not CoL. Mansa has CS and the plantation on the silk is already built.

autolog:
Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 101/450 (820 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:03:59]
Prague begins: Catapult (8 turns)
Vienna begins: Archer (5 turns)
Vienna begins: Archer (5 turns)
Augsburg begins: Catapult (17 turns)
Florence begins: Lighthouse (15 turns)
Swordsman 2 (Aachen) promoted: City Raider II
A Pasture was built near Augsburg
Aachen begins: Chariot (5 turns)
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 7 per turn, 3 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Aachen
The whip was applied in Vienna
The whip was applied in Mainz
Aachen finishes: Catapult
Vienna grows to size 6
Vienna finishes: Market
A Hamlet was built near Vienna
Mainz grows to size 3
Mainz finishes: Swordsman

Turn 102/450 (840 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:12:34]
Mainz begins: Rathaus (120 turns)
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 12 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Aachen grows to size 5
Aachen finishes: Chariot
Prague finishes: Catapult
Nuremberg grows to size 5
Mainz's borders expand

Turn 103/450 (860 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:17:01]
Aachen begins: Worker (6 turns)
Prague begins: Rathaus (12 turns)
A Cottage was built near Prague
Chariot 2 (Aachen) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 5 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Augsburg
Vienna grows to size 7
Augsburg grows to size 5
Augsburg finishes: Catapult
Mainz grows to size 4

Turn 104/450 (880 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:23:00]
Augsburg begins: Rathaus (40 turns)
Quartermaster (Holy Rome) declares war on Mansa Musa (Mali)
While attacking, Archer 5 (Nuremberg) decimates Malinese Scout (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
While attacking in the wild near Aachen, Archer 5 (Nuremberg) (2.16/3) defeats Malinese Scout (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Swordsman 4 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman 6 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman 8 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
0% Research: 3 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: -12 per turn, 27 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Aachen
Vienna finishes: Archer
Augsburg grows to size 6

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa (Mali) towards Quartermaster (Holy Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Caste System' to 'Slavery'

Turn 105/450 (900 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:27:15]
Vienna begins: Rathaus (24 turns)
A Fort near Augsburg was destroyed by Holy Roman Swordsman 12 (Mainz) (0 gold)
0% Research: 3 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: -14 per turn, 15 in the bank

Turn 106/450 (920 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:30:48]
Catapult 1 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Catapult 1 (Prague) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 3.0%)
While attacking, Swordsman 11 (Augsburg) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 12.8%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman 11 (Augsburg) (3.12/6) defeats Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 12.8%)
Catapult 2 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
Axeman 5 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Catapult 2 (Prague) escapes from Malinese Axeman (Prob Victory: 55.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Catapult 2 (Prague) loses to Malinese Axeman (2.70/5) (Prob Victory: 55.3%)
While attacking, Axeman 3 (Aachen) decimates Malinese Axeman (Prob Victory: 85.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Axeman 3 (Aachen) (3.95/5) defeats Malinese Axeman (Prob Victory: 85.3%)
While attacking, Swordsman 2 (Aachen) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman 2 (Aachen) (2.94/6) defeats Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
Confucianism has spread: Djenne
Captured Djenne (Mansa Musa)
Djenne begins: Granary (61 turns)
A Cottage was built near Nuremberg
0% Research: 3 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: -13 per turn, 92 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Prague
Aachen finishes: Worker
A Village was built near Vienna
Nuremberg finishes: Catapult
Mainz grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa (Mali) towards Quartermaster (Holy Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 107/450 (940 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:36:09]
Aachen begins: Axeman (5 turns)
Nuremberg begins: Rathaus (20 turns)
Swordsman 11 (Augsburg) promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman 11 (Augsburg) promoted: City Raider II
A Cottage was built near Aachen
A Cottage was built near Prague
0% Research: 3 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: -17 per turn, 79 in the bank

After End Turn:
Prague grows to size 6
Vienna grows to size 8
Augsburg grows to size 7

Turn 108/450 (960 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:40:43]
While attacking, Swordsman 12 (Mainz) decimates Malinese Chariot (Prob Victory: 79.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Djenne, Swordsman 12 (Mainz) (6.00/6) defeats Malinese Chariot (Prob Victory: 79.3%)
A Camp was built near Nuremberg
0% Research: 3 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: -18 per turn, 62 in the bank

After End Turn:
Florence's borders expand

Turn 109/450 (980 AD) [13-Apr-2013 23:43:37]
Player contact made: Suryavarman II of Khmer
Chariot 1 (Aachen) promoted: Combat I
Catapult 3 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Catapult 3 (Prague) escapes from Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 9.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult 3 (Prague) loses to Malinese Skirmisher (3.40/4) (Prob Victory: 9.3%)
Catapult 6 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Catapult 6 (Prague) escapes from Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 33.2%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult 6 (Prague) loses to Malinese Skirmisher (3.56/4) (Prob Victory: 33.2%)
Catapult 4 (Prague) promoted: City Raider I
George Patton (Great General) born in Prague
While attacking, Catapult 4 (Prague) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 33.2%)
While attacking, Swordsman 4 (Prague) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 66.4%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman 4 (Prague) (4.80/6) defeats Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 66.4%)
Swordsman 12 (Mainz) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Swordsman 12 (Mainz) decimates Malinese Axeman (Prob Victory: 68.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman 12 (Mainz) (0.96/6) defeats Malinese Axeman (Prob Victory: 68.0%)
While attacking, Swordsman 6 (Prague) decimates Malinese Catapult (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman 6 (Prague) (2.16/6) defeats Malinese Catapult (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
While attacking, Swordsman 9 (Nuremberg) decimates Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman 9 (Nuremberg) (4.92/6) defeats Malinese Skirmisher (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
While attacking, Swordsman 10 (Prague) decimates Malinese Chariot (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Swordsman 10 (Prague) (6.00/6) defeats Malinese Chariot (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Confucianism has been removed: Timbuktu (Malinese Empire)
Confucianism has spread: Timbuktu
Captured Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)
Timbuktu begins: Market (151 turns)
While attacking, Swordsman 2 (Aachen) decimates Malinese Scout (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in the wild at Djenne, Swordsman 2 (Aachen) (5.34/6) defeats Malinese Scout (Prob Victory: 100.0%)


We have 235g in the bank, but we're running @0% -25 gpt despite new cottages and the market in Vienna. I think i must whip some Rathaus.

Waiting for your comments.
 
Is that America?
 
Great Job Captain!!!

Yes whip those CH before we tank. Once Timbu comes out of revolt we should start moving forward in cash again.
 
Is that America?
No it's Suryavarman - or what the heck - Khmer. Creative/Expansive, so that city has 3rd borders. He's got the Mahabody and the ToA. Pyramids and HG are built by unknown.
 
Great job on the conquest!

What I didn't like is

"A Cottage was built near Prague
A Cottage was built near Aachen
A Cottage was built near Prague"

Two people expressed their opinion that they don't like those cottages (Unclethrill and myself), with only you being the one who wanted them. (The others didn't say anything about them). It's no big deal, but still...

Moving forward:
Great job on the war front! We definitely need some CHs now. Can we do a temp peace and get some techs from him? Eg Caledar or CS for 10 turns peace would be nice. Until then we can regroup&heal, and get back into shape with some rathouses.

The gold city looks like a good idea, giving an important happy resource (2 happy with forges later). I'll check the save tonight for sure and see how much money we can get with some tile rearrangements and rathaus whips/wealth building. We should look for oppurtinites to make Sury happy so we have OB and trading partners.
 
Excellent job captain!! :) (although I didn't like those cottages either)

Now is a good time to whip courthouses. We need them. Will need to get them up quickly when the new cities get online too, as they will cost a lot.

Great to see we could actually get across the ocean there. Think I agree we want to settle that city. Gold +1) and a nice base for future war. Will need some units for protection there if Sury is annoyed already.

If I understood the battle log correctly, you had some great luck there. Good thing I wasn't playing, or we'd be losing half those 99% battles :D :(

If you can capture his two other good cities that would be great, and then we can take Walata and W-Horse in round two.

Great job!! :)
 
Great job on the conquest!

What I didn't like is

"A Cottage was built near Prague
A Cottage was built near Aachen
A Cottage was built near Prague"
Prague was working unimproved grassland in my inherited turn. Now, we have 2 choices: keep it at size 3 so it can work only the hills and the rice or build some cottage, so it can grow and have some commerce.

Same for Aachen, which is without LH.

And same for Augsburg, which soon will give back 2 mature cottages to Vienna. It was its duty, right?
But we need any possible source of commerce, this land is commerce poor, the game will be long, we're already tech backwards and we need big armies.

In the past game we had many commerce-rich resources and many riverside tiles, so even a farm or a mine generated commerce. In our starting area there aren't rivers aside Vienna and the fur peninsula, but there's an half of the land covered by nice jungle. Just to refresh your memory, take a look at this: 960 AD.
Spoiler :
attachment.php
This is the plain confirmation that advanced era starts are slower than ancient era starts for the human and that the classical start is the worse. Sum that to the land and you can see the picture. This game is carefully planned to obstacle the victory.
 
Fair enough on those cottages. Better to build that than work unimproved grassland, that's for damn sure. We'll get a much better economy once Mansa's cities get online (at least post-Rathaus), but a bit of commerce where we can get it is always nice. I was thinking it would be better with workshops in those plots in Prague, but that's a mid-term game choice in any case, and it would be further delayed given the start and lousy land here delaying our tech speed. A minor point in any case.

The commerce situation probably means we should risk the overseas gold city though. The extra happiness will be good, and especially the commerce. Plus the strategic location. It will cost a bit, but the upsides are many. We already have a settler right? Why not send him across?

That goes against what I said earlier about city settling. But we have some insurance from capture gold now, and it would be a crying shame if Sury were to beat us to it.
 
We have many things to decide before i can continue play:

1) whip CHs where possible
2) settle 1SW of gold with at least 3 units protecting the city (archer, axe and the chariot already there, all promoted)
3) take the 2 good cities (Mali's inland sea coast), negotiate peace trying to extort the possible in terms of techs and/or gold and be good for 10 turns
4) delay or settle the fur city?

how i see is:

1) sure and it seems there's already consensus
2) yes: the strategic importance of that city is even greater with those resources
3) it's my proposal, yes
4) on the fence. Surely the settler is needed for the south coast, so we can decide later but build a settler within 10 turns

I can play once those decisions are taken for more 7-9 turns, then report
 
Do we have a save somewhere?
 
Do we have a save somewhere?
Yes here :D

Another important reason to settle the gold city: we can't trade any resource with Sury.
This can be why:
a) we can't see his Capital
b) there's no water connection to the sea, so no rivers goin' north - no rivers at all?

So the only way to have contact with the south is our coastal city. BTW i can see only 2 tiles of coast, moving W seems to be ocean even near the land.
 
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