SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
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The modifier is based on all trades you have done with them. Then value they got from us minus the value of thing we have gotten from them. The sum is divided by the number of turns we have known eachother and then there is a factor of 4,5 or 10.
If we assume the factor is 4 (i think it is) then you have to give them values on loop-sided trades or gifts to average 16gpt to keep relations at +4.
If we assume the factor is 4 (i think it is) then you have to give them values on loop-sided trades or gifts to average 16gpt to keep relations at +4.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I agree to not whip the CH in Vienna, i didn't noticed it's a 4 pop whip. Too much. I can switch to Palace, but it won't be a quick thing. In any case it's something to do, so we do it 
The unhappiness from whips will disappear in 2 turns, and next turn any city will gain 1 happy for the silver.
So i think my plan is approved with the above variation.
Now to Folket's idea. Gift 8 or 10 gold is a negligible thing if we can improve the relations.
Even 20 can be considered.
But i've seen posts talking about 8 gpt. We cannot afford more than 1 or 2 gpt and we need to be careful in cancel the trade.
Can you confirm what is needed?
I was already thinking to whip the CHs where possible, end turn, save and report. To add this diplo move it's not a big problem if you're fairly sure it can work. Please confirm. I can do that at any time, it's a 3 minutes thing.
The unhappiness from whips will disappear in 2 turns, and next turn any city will gain 1 happy for the silver.
So i think my plan is approved with the above variation.
Now to Folket's idea. Gift 8 or 10 gold is a negligible thing if we can improve the relations.
Even 20 can be considered.
But i've seen posts talking about 8 gpt. We cannot afford more than 1 or 2 gpt and we need to be careful in cancel the trade.
Can you confirm what is needed?
I was already thinking to whip the CHs where possible, end turn, save and report. To add this diplo move it's not a big problem if you're fairly sure it can work. Please confirm. I can do that at any time, it's a 3 minutes thing.
Shaandore
another mathematician
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Great, move on as soon as Folket confirms.
I guess we could chop into the Palace if we can spare a worker.
The way I understand Folket's post the AI simply takes the total amount of gold gain from us and divides it by the number of turns we have known each other. So if we give him 16, then he will gain +4 now, but will be at +0 fair trade after 5 turns. If we gift him 16 gpt, then he will stay at +4 until we cancel the deal. (after that it will start diminishing slowly)
What is still unclear to me is that the +modifier will appear on this turn, or next turn, and if it appears next turn, then will our gold be divided by 1 or 2? This thing is easy to test BTW, but I don't have access to the game today.
I guess we could chop into the Palace if we can spare a worker.
The way I understand Folket's post the AI simply takes the total amount of gold gain from us and divides it by the number of turns we have known each other. So if we give him 16, then he will gain +4 now, but will be at +0 fair trade after 5 turns. If we gift him 16 gpt, then he will stay at +4 until we cancel the deal. (after that it will start diminishing slowly)
What is still unclear to me is that the +modifier will appear on this turn, or next turn, and if it appears next turn, then will our gold be divided by 1 or 2? This thing is easy to test BTW, but I don't have access to the game today.
Blubmuz, it is all about how long we want to keep the relation bonus. If this is the first turn we meet him on 8 gold should be enough. Otherwise we need to pay 8 gold for each turn since we met him. i.e. 8 gpt. To put it simple. When I say gpt I do not mean gpt trades but value needed for each turn we have know him.
Can you confirm this is the first turn? If so go ahead and give him a one time sum of 8 gold. That should make him cautious for 1 turn.
Can you confirm this is the first turn? If so go ahead and give him a one time sum of 8 gold. That should make him cautious for 1 turn.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Ok, got it. Sure, i've met him when the chariot landed on the hill.
Fact is that if we turn him to cautious he will give OB and this will improve his attitude toward us as the time passes. Some tech trades can improve further.
I think i can give him 16g to be safe, since it's not clear if the attitude change is immediate or delayed by 1 turn.
A remainder for future relations is that he's got a 10% chances to declare at pleased, so he's not a peaceful guy.
Gonna do it. Good catch BTW, where did you founded it?
Pangaea
Rock N Roller
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Great catch if it works. I've noticed +4 fair trade often keeps going down in my saves. What techs can we trade with him? I don't recall from the checkup yesterday.
Considering the above war micro, it makes sense to take his NW city, also for culture borders, and then wait with the others. If we're lucky, maybe he will open borders with us quite quickly too, improving our economy.
Considering the above war micro, it makes sense to take his NW city, also for culture borders, and then wait with the others. If we're lucky, maybe he will open borders with us quite quickly too, improving our economy.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I gift 16g to Sury, he immediately turned to cautious and agreed on OB, which i took.
He's willing to trade Med, Poly, Monarchy, HBR and Alpha but not Aestetic and Calendar.
Because of this, i saved without hit enter. It's worth a discussion.
Here what he offers for CoL:
1- med/117+poly/145 + 40g
2- monarchy/438 + 40g
3- HBR/364 + 20g - it's not a typo, verified!
4- alpha/438-55=383+med/117 + 0g
I've tried CoL without add money, but ask for more:
5- monarchy+poly + 40g from us
6- monarchy+poly+med + 145g from us
probably the best deal for us is #5 because it opens Mono so we can revolt to HR and OR in the same turn. Not sure about this, i remember we discussed it in the past game, but can't find the post. 12 cities is the limit maybe?
He's willing to trade Med, Poly, Monarchy, HBR and Alpha but not Aestetic and Calendar.
Because of this, i saved without hit enter. It's worth a discussion.
Here what he offers for CoL:
1- med/117+poly/145 + 40g
2- monarchy/438 + 40g
3- HBR/364 + 20g - it's not a typo, verified!
4- alpha/438-55=383+med/117 + 0g
I've tried CoL without add money, but ask for more:
5- monarchy+poly + 40g from us
6- monarchy+poly+med + 145g from us
probably the best deal for us is #5 because it opens Mono so we can revolt to HR and OR in the same turn. Not sure about this, i remember we discussed it in the past game, but can't find the post. 12 cities is the limit maybe?
Pangaea
Rock N Roller
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Excellent that it worked. I'd definitely want to pick up monarchy for HR, and if we can get OR fairy soon that would be great too. Obviously best to double-switch. If we do this trade now (#5) and then peace out with Mansa after taking the NW city, we should hopefully get OR too. Then we can double-switch. This will also improve relations with Sury over time from favourite civic.
HBR is a military tech and therefore more expensive. It has something to do with an added modifier, which is used in the XML files. I was on top of this while researching stuff for Know Your Enemy (but don't recall all the details now).
Btw, since Sury is willing to trade, does that not mean he has met other civs too? Otherwise I think he would believe he has monopoly on them, and probably not want to trade until more civs know the techs. Maybe the others he has met do not have Calendar and Aesthetics?
The only leader this is not relevant for is Mansa, because he is willing to trade no matter what, even if he genuinely has a monopoly tech. Hence the name "Whore".
HBR is a military tech and therefore more expensive. It has something to do with an added modifier, which is used in the XML files. I was on top of this while researching stuff for Know Your Enemy (but don't recall all the details now).
Btw, since Sury is willing to trade, does that not mean he has met other civs too? Otherwise I think he would believe he has monopoly on them, and probably not want to trade until more civs know the techs. Maybe the others he has met do not have Calendar and Aesthetics?
The only leader this is not relevant for is Mansa, because he is willing to trade no matter what, even if he genuinely has a monopoly tech. Hence the name "Whore".
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Yes, +4. Sorry to forgot to post it.
@ Pan
2 techs are tradable even if monopoly: Monarchy and Alpha
not the other ones, mainly HBR. So i suppose he has contact with another civ, which we can hopefully meet soon with OB. And yes, not having met Mansa he think to have Aest.+Calendar in monopoly.
If we agree on #5 i can proceed. Full priority to the gold city, of course.
If we manage to have Med soon, i think Vienna can build a monastery and later Timbu and Aachen.
We are in a great shape.
Some random thoughts/ideas after looking at the save. Let me know what you guys think about them.
1. Mansa is willing to offer Med, Poly and 260 gold for peace. I think we could easily ask for 1 big tech and a small plus some gold. Metal Casting or CS would ceratinly be nice. I would try and get CS+Mono+some gold off Mansa. If he is not willing to give them, then try CS+some money.
Take one more city, then see what peace are open.
(not idea just observation) Timbu came with two towns, two villages, and can whip a rathaus right after it's out of revolt. Djenne can work a hamlet and the silk so it won't be a problem. Quite a few rathaus whips are nicely set up.
2. I would not build a rathaus in Vienna, rather a palace. We might be able to get CS from Mansa, and in that case we better start gearing towards Bureau capital.
Palace makes sense to me.
3. I would move some workers into Vienna's BFC to chop into palace and build cottages.
I have not had a look at worker micro. I pretty much ok with anything right now except workshops.
4. Settling gold city and fur city is getting increasingly important too with current happiness situation.
Get gold ASAP.
5. By rearranging tiles in Aachen we can get some gold and staying at -1 food for some turns is good because we don't grow into unhappy.
reasonable
6. I would take peace now to regroup. Later we could keep Kumbi, and the city west of Timbu most likely has some cottages, so that's a keeper as well. Walata should be razed unless it is big enough to whip a Rathaus soon after revolt ends. Taking and keeping these cities now would be a bit problematic for this economy.
Wait one turn.
7. Getting Monotheism off Mansa is very important so we can change to OR and switch to it. This way we could befriend Sury and open borders with him.
makes sense
8. The great general will be a great healer. They will make a happy couple with Aachens chariot
sounds good
Trade alternative 5 seems best to me. If you are agreeing with me I give you green lights.
Pangaea
Rock N Roller
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Gotta run, but green light from me on trade 5 and taking one more city. Then we see what peace offers he will offer us. Hopefully something worth more than right now. We may not be able to get CS as it's quite expensive, but here's hoping.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I see a general consensus on my proposals and plan, so i go. Few hours guys.
A stop for discuss the peace deal does not makes sense, it's not like a normal trade bait: if the AI is fine with your proposal it takes it. So the only way is to ask for anything and cut something at any round. I hope you trust my skills on that. Wish me good luck.
A stop for discuss the peace deal does not makes sense, it's not like a normal trade bait: if the AI is fine with your proposal it takes it. So the only way is to ask for anything and cut something at any round. I hope you trust my skills on that. Wish me good luck.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I've play some turn after the peace with Mansa and i stop now because there're great opportunities.
I hope you will be satified about my decision for the peace deal with Mansa.
Initially he offered Mono+med+Aest+130g
i've tried many combinations, in the end i've tried for med+MC+some gold, dropping the sum by 20g any attempt. It worked that we now have Med and MC but not gold from him. But next turn he accepted OB.
The first thing i did once the game was opened was the trade with Sury
CoL + 60g for Poly+Monarchy
I strongly preferred MC to any other tech because we can rade it to Sury: in fact, he gives us Mono+Cal for that, no gold offered or asked.
But the reason why i report is that i've just met Qin (China, Ind/Pro) and signed OB. The 2 southernern do not have worst enemy, so we don't have any problem on that side. I was prepared to meet another AI because i've seen that Sury did not put any EP on us. But i did: Sury +1, Mansa 0.
Now:
- Sury has CoL (from us) and currency but not MC.
- Qin wants CoL and currency but has MC and Feudalism
Back 1 turn: I took Gao with NO losses, but found it empty. No buildings. s**t
I switched to mono @100% so we can revolt if we want in 2 turns
Again on tech trades with South:
- Sury (which shows 0g) gives us Mono+Cal for MC. To note that despite we have silk, we do not benefit from it. That was foreseen.
Qin offers many choices if we forget Sury, but i aim to not give them something they can trade. In this perspective MC to Sury is OK.
- We do not have anything to convince Qin to give away Feud, but he gives HBR+Alpha+Mono+30g (all he shows) for Curr+CoL. We can't have both HBR and Alpha with only one of them, but any of both + mono + 30g for 1 of ours.
What i think is: let's accept those trades, so they do not have anything to trade between them and we have all the techs we need. Alternatively, we can give Currency to Qin and choose HBR+mono+30g and give MC for Calendar to Sury.
Autolog:
About the situation of our empire, i can whip a CH in gems/ivory for 3 or wit 2 turns and do it for 2. See what it's working i prefer the immediate whip.
I hope you will be satified about my decision for the peace deal with Mansa.
Initially he offered Mono+med+Aest+130g
i've tried many combinations, in the end i've tried for med+MC+some gold, dropping the sum by 20g any attempt. It worked that we now have Med and MC but not gold from him. But next turn he accepted OB.
The first thing i did once the game was opened was the trade with Sury
CoL + 60g for Poly+Monarchy
I strongly preferred MC to any other tech because we can rade it to Sury: in fact, he gives us Mono+Cal for that, no gold offered or asked.
But the reason why i report is that i've just met Qin (China, Ind/Pro) and signed OB. The 2 southernern do not have worst enemy, so we don't have any problem on that side. I was prepared to meet another AI because i've seen that Sury did not put any EP on us. But i did: Sury +1, Mansa 0.
Now:
- Sury has CoL (from us) and currency but not MC.
- Qin wants CoL and currency but has MC and Feudalism
Back 1 turn: I took Gao with NO losses, but found it empty. No buildings. s**t
I switched to mono @100% so we can revolt if we want in 2 turns
Again on tech trades with South:
- Sury (which shows 0g) gives us Mono+Cal for MC. To note that despite we have silk, we do not benefit from it. That was foreseen.
Qin offers many choices if we forget Sury, but i aim to not give them something they can trade. In this perspective MC to Sury is OK.
- We do not have anything to convince Qin to give away Feud, but he gives HBR+Alpha+Mono+30g (all he shows) for Curr+CoL. We can't have both HBR and Alpha with only one of them, but any of both + mono + 30g for 1 of ours.
What i think is: let's accept those trades, so they do not have anything to trade between them and we have all the techs we need. Alternatively, we can give Currency to Qin and choose HBR+mono+30g and give MC for Calendar to Sury.
Autolog:
Spoiler :
About the situation of our empire, i can whip a CH in gems/ivory for 3 or wit 2 turns and do it for 2. See what it's working i prefer the immediate whip.
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