SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

Cottages: I didn't say that it was the wrong choice, I said it was not the team choice.

The consensus was to whip away from those unimproved tiles. At least you should have told us that you still intend to do it your way before playing the turnset. (second PPP with modifications would have been nice.)

It is really no big deal, I just want to point this out so we try and get a clear team consensus before moving ahead. On a bigger scale things like this can take the fun out of the game. Let me show such an example:

On page 50 somebody proposes Military Tradition as next tech. One other member says that it is a good idea, and active player says that it is bad, and Chemistry should be next (he even poses some argumetns). On page 55 the team decides that Constitution should be the next tech, but should be traded for if given an opportunity.
In the turnset the active player manages to trade for Constitution, and then puts 3 turns of 100% research into Chemistry.

This would be kind of sketchy IMO.

What you did was a much smaller thing, and most likely not intentional. (I haven't seen a game that was decided by 3 tile imporvements that were built after 900 AD ;)) If we have a very long game, and find some other strong production cities, those cottages might end up useful. So please don't take this as an attack against you or anything, I just like to be precise about things so nobody gets hurt or feel neglected.
 
We are in a great shape.

Some random thoughts/ideas after looking at the save. Let me know what you guys think about them.

1. Mansa is willing to offer Med, Poly and 260 gold for peace. I think we could easily ask for 1 big tech and a small plus some gold. Metal Casting or CS would ceratinly be nice. I would try and get CS+Mono+some gold off Mansa. If he is not willing to give them, then try CS+some money.

(not idea just observation) Timbu came with two towns, two villages, and can whip a rathaus right after it's out of revolt. Djenne can work a hamlet and the silk so it won't be a problem. Quite a few rathaus whips are nicely set up.

2. I would not build a rathaus in Vienna, rather a palace. We might be able to get CS from Mansa, and in that case we better start gearing towards Bureau capital.

3. I would move some workers into Vienna's BFC to chop into palace and build cottages.

4. Settling gold city and fur city is getting increasingly important too with current happiness situation.

5. By rearranging tiles in Aachen we can get some gold and staying at -1 food for some turns is good because we don't grow into unhappy.

6. I would take peace now to regroup. Later we could keep Kumbi, and the city west of Timbu most likely has some cottages, so that's a keeper as well. Walata should be razed unless it is big enough to whip a Rathaus soon after revolt ends. Taking and keeping these cities now would be a bit problematic for this economy.

7. Getting Monotheism off Mansa is very important so we can change to OR and switch to it. This way we could befriend Sury and open borders with him.

8. The great general will be a great healer. They will make a happy couple with Aachens chariot :D
 
Cottages: I didn't say that it was the wrong choice, I said it was not the team choice.
We (you and me) discussed about cottages. And right in the W area.

Now, you can't whip a city indefinitely - especially if you don't have many resources - and pretend to have the people happy and a good economy. Many cities were at the limit of happiness for 7-8 turns and were already reduced to pity.

In any case, aside the situation i've found, which basically showed a good job in setting up an army, we need cottages, they are our only source of commerce. Just a few coast tiles and no LHs - ATM - do let any choice than that. Also bigger cities give more profitable trade routes, so we must use the whip when strictly necessary. As i'm goin' to do as soon as i open the game for 3 (IIRC) Rathaus.

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I presented 4 points for the discussion. Your opinion? edit: xpost

We can't have Mono since we lack the prerequisites. But i think that at least one of the coastal cities must be taken and i'm thinking to the northernmost one, which we can't see.

BTW, i don't need to heal anything, i can strike next turn.

This gives us the chance to build a galley and let Mansa with enough cities to give us a good peace deal.
 
Yes
Yes
Maybe
Delay
 
I can see the benefit of cottage helper now but it doesn't change the fact that if we settle it before we get some CH we will go negative at 0% and we will disband units. We need to use the settler for cottage helper but we have to wait until we either have some gold from war or enough CH built to offset the cost.

The benefit if a city on the potential southern continent is that we can funnel lots of troops with a few boats and then launch the war. That is really its only benefit. Less boats.

Furry fish is a good city but cottage helper first and not until we have a slightly better economy. Just delay it a few turns.
No cottages around Prague. Agreed useless . build wealth if we need money.

Not only us. You presented fair points, and maybe you could have convinced me before playing the turnset. It was not unheard of that I changed my mind before ;)

Your points are fair. I agreed that we need more cottages. With the postponing of the cottage helper (which would have been a commerce city), I would agree that we needed one or two other cottage spots. Nuremberg seems like a good choice for that with the gems and ivory. Maybe even one more spot, porbably Augsburg since it already has two shared cottages. But spamming them in other cities eg. Prague, our main production spot or Aachen seems like a bit overdoing it, and going against the idea of city specialization.

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1)Yes
2)Yes
3)I would like to know how peace deals work. Mansa seems quite eager to give us techs now. Will he do the same after taking some more cities? It would be nice to know the mechanics here. After all we are not in a rush. Our economy (plus we will have a new gold city) would be grateful for 10 turns of peace now though. No strong opinion on this for now.
4) I wouldn't really delay this, but I would wait for a comfortable time to build the settler. Eg. in Augsburg after growing back a size just before getting into unhappy.

One more thing:
Augsburg has a copper unmined, I think that it's an important improvement to build since our land is very low on hammers.
 
I think i have enough input to post a PPP soon. Not now, the usual Saturday dinner with friends (not always the same) is in few minutes.

About what to do with my questions:
1) i'll whip the CHs as the first thing wherever possible. Need time to propose what to build after then.
2) the galley is now out of moves and the settler can arrive in Aachen in less than 2 turns. Then we need an archer and probably Aachen can build it. The axe can be moved after we make peace with MM
3) I think that if we left MM with only 2 almost crappy cities the peace deal can be worse. Let him with a good city (Kumbi) and the other two can give us probably more than we can have now.
We must also consider that the city NW of Timbu will seriously disturb Timbu with its culture, so we need to take it, then open the peace deals.
4) i think i can stop when the peace is signed so we can have a better sight of our economic situation with the CHs in place and with Djenne out of revolt.

More details later.
What we can also see next turn is if Sury has contact with another AI from his EP spending. We can also see if we are his worst enemy or not. If not, we can probably have OB in few turns.
 
How many turns have we known the Khmer. It might be enough to gift him 8 or 16 gold to get open borders with him.
 
Suryavarman will give open borders at cautious. Also getting him to cautious will open up tech trades.

Gift the Khmer 8 gold and save at once. When we see what trades opens up we can start a discussion.
 
What do you guys think about my 7 ideas?

I would like to see what trades is possible with Khmer first. Once we see that we should start discussing our future path.
 
On item #3 - I'd also like to know the mechanics, if someone can explain. Not only can we use the 10 turns of peace, but since we have more wars coming we can gain xp when we take more cities. And for more peace after 10, he may give something up for another 10.

Is it out of the question to stunt his growth and use his as a tech machine?
 
3) I think that if we left MM with only 2 almost crappy cities the peace deal can be worse. Let him with a good city (Kumbi) and the other two can give us probably more than we can have now.

Why would it be worse later, when we have taken even more cities off him?

I'm not entirely on top of mechanics either (I'm sure there is something useful in the war academy), but I think it's based generally on war success. Right now we have few losses, true, but taking more cities would mean we are stronger than him and should have more war success than now, so I would think we can get a better deal then. In any case, I think we should get the NW city as it will disturb culture-wise, and since you don't even need healing, this is a no-brainer to me. But perhaps we should check up on mechanics first to be sure how these things work.

As for the questions:
1: Yes, whip them where you can
2: Yes to founding gold city
3: Think you should take at least one more city, maybe both good ones. Then we can take a 10-turn peace for techs, hopefully something really good, and then kill him later.
4: Not sure about the Fur city, but we can probably use it, mainly for happiness. The settler we already have should go to gold though. That is much more important IMO.
 
Loaded up the save and had a wee look. Plenty of units in place, so I really like the idea of taking another city, and quite possibly 2. It will give us access to the Barb-Sea, which is nice for scouting out what is over there. In 10 turns he could get Feudalism and Longbows, so taking out his main production capacity now is better than later.

Right now he is willing to give us techs+gold worth about 520. Maybe these things don't have a 1:1 relationship, but in any case, this probably means we can get Monarchy (and maybe some gold) off him if we peace out now. That is preferable to two tiny techs. Think it's better to press on though, and hopefully get some better tech(s) after we capture another city or two.

We may be up against longbows in round 2, but there shouldn't be that many if we take away his main cities now.
 
Tried to find something on peace treaty deals, and the best I could find was this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=364486
War success:
4 points for units killed while attacking
3 points for units killed when attacking
10 points for taking cities
1 point for workers/settlers iIrc

It explains war success well enough.

According to Civ Illustrated
The other factor in capitulation besides power is war success. You need a war success score of +40 before a civ will capitulate along with the required power ratio.

Our power will only increase by taking more cities. And provided we don't have to suicide a pile of catas, war success should also be further in our favour by taking more cities.

Is war weariness that is listed in the game (68 iirc) the same as war success? Probably a silly question, but I'm always confused by this, and forget/don't know which side the war weariness in-game is for.
 
About what gold is worth: If I'm reading this post right, we could ask for techs at least 390 beakers+the beaker cost of Med and Poly. I would imagine we could even get more right now, since he offered all his gold, and all small techs. I think a big tech should be possible even right now. Maybe with some more war success we could get a big and a small tech.
 
War weariness and war succes are different things, although they could have a connection (bigger war succes less war weariness?).

War weariness is about how much our brave nation hates the war. Eg. a long war on a far away continent that takes a lot of sacrifice will cause a lot of weariness, opposed to a succesful defensive war.
 
Without goin' to read carefully the War Academy (but i did in the past), i can say this: the harder you beat an AI, the better peace deal you can have. In some non compeitive solo games i experienced this: Take the last city i was interested ATM, save, ask for peace, decent deal. Reload, kill a couple units around, ask for peace = better deal.

About war weariness, it's proportional to the number of units outside your borders (minor) and the number of units you lose (major). On this matter i have the suspect that siege do not count (machine). Losing a city has a big impact (never experienced, but i've read of it). Can't remember if conquest has a positive impact or nothing.

But if i let the AI with only one crappy city this won't give nothing of nothing. At best his WM.

This can mean that if we take the NW city and ask peace we can gain a better deal than now. Take both the coastal cities can give an even better deal, but can drop in the "last crappy city" case. There's another problem, less tied to the AI behaviour: I have units to take a city quickly (just the time to arrive) without much problems, mainly because i can figure it will be lightly defended.
But:
1- i lack more catapults to sacrifice on a second target (i can use the injured ones to bombard and attack with the full health) but after the first city i need to heal
2- moving from the NW city to Kumbi requires 3 turns, assuming this unkown city is between the rivers, 1 more for attack, not considering the need to heal.

We can instead ask for peace right after the fall of the NW city, heal, add some cats and prepare the final push considering also the jungle city which we'll raze. We have 10 turns of forced peace, but we have an actual delay of only 6/8 turns for Kumbi.

There's another point to consider: Mansa was pleased with us, so he will probably agree on OB 1/2 turns after the peace or even immediately and this can be good for our economy.

Now, a plan which i'd like to be considered as a guideline for all the game:
As i said earlier, we can't whip indefinitely because there's a limit due to unhappiness but also a convenience in let our cities grow. I'm goin' to use again a comparison with our past game, which at least 4 of us know well, to have a common ground.

Let's take Paris (science city) and Orleans (production city). They shared 3/4 tiles and when Paris needed to boost production it stealed some hills from Orleans which in turn stealed some mature cottages from it. Or when we needed production in both at the same time, Orleans worked other improved hills otherwise not worked. There was also the coastal city (that was a real cottage helper) which when Paris can work all its cottages worked sea tiles. That was a good example of overlap cities well used.

Now, let's try to look at the situation of this game: we're relented in the land improvement by the jungle (wasted turns) and by the forests (immediate hammers).
Aside Vienna, which is a natural science city, as can be FurryFish, we do not have great production cities. Even worse, those cities have no natural commerce. Now, if we agree that a target size for any city is around 9/10, we can see that we need some improvements. Mostly cottages, maybe later some workshop. Without cottages we can't have a decent economy.

Looking at Prague, it's growing faster than the time i need to build its cottages. It's now size 6 and it's working the 3 mines, rice, 1 fresh cottage and an unimproved grassland (cottage ready next turn). Considering it will arrive to size 9, it needs 4 more cottages. It will be reduced to 4 this turn, but it grows fast, so at least 2 more must be built in 10/15 turns

Another rule can be: do NOT chop a jungle if you don't build an improvement immediately. No one of our cities has health problems, thus those are worker turns wasted. We can do that later.

The above are the lines i'd like to follow in my TS. Please give me your opinions.

Now, builds, to complete my plan:
- Aachen: finish axe in 2, archer. Both will later be loaded to protect the gold city. Stagnating due to happiness cap reached.
- Prague: whip CH (2 pop) then, depending by the overflow: archer or library. Library in any case soon, worker when back to size 6
- Vienna: whip CH, Galley (we need it to speed up ferries), slow build Palace with some chop, after the mine is finished
- Nuremberg (gems/ivory) not possible whip CH now, do it as soon as it is, then barracks - that city have good production and good food soon
- Augsburg: whip CH, then barracks or market
- Mainz (silver) same as Nuremberg. To note that silver comes on line next turn, marble next but first a road on the jungle to connect it with Augsburg: too long move to/from there without it. After the marble and the road the workers will move to improve the copper, which was under Malinese control 3 turns ago (pillaged fort)
- Ulm (horses): there's a sword ready in 1 turn, but we don't need it, so library, which is desperately needed, the sword will wait some turn. Working the cottage instead of the lake for investment
- Florence: finish LH, finish archer, granary. Iron mined in 2, then road. The worker can build a cottage waiting to move on the gold hill once we - hopefully - have the city in place and defended. Monument first in that city.
- Djenne: granary, whip when possible, out of revolt next turn
- Timbu: out of revolt in 8 turns (this is one of the things i hate in CIV, the turns to go out of revolt after the conquest are the same at any speed). Wait 1 turn, then whip the CH. If possible, wait another turn and whip a market. Or viceversa, probably it's better

We need also more workers (3 or 4), i'll see what is best.

The GG will be attached to the chariot as super medic.
Another thing to note is that our sword has just reached 10 XP by killing a scout, so the HE is open. Just the time to have Literature <sigh>.
 
Did anyone read my post about getting Suryavarman to cautious to see what tech we can get and get open borders? I think we should do this before playing any more turns.
 
Did anyone read my post about getting Suryavarman to cautious to see what tech we can get and get open borders? I think we should do this before playing any more turns.

Agreed
 
Folket, do we know for sure that gifting 8 gold will make him happier? Is there some game mechanics here I don't know about? It's a good idea if it works.

Blub:
Amen to taking the NW city.

I like the build plan, except for CH whip in Vienna. First, I wouldn't build CH at all, instead I would build a palace. We will want this as a capital (it has a better position on the map than Aachen, and is obviously better for bureaucracy.) We have a good chance of getting CS soon, so starting palace now makes sense. Second, whipping a CH is net loss. I wouldn't whip away from mature cottages. The Unhappiness will go away soon, and we will have gold in a few turns for some extra happy.
 
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