SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

Many things happened while I was away, but mostly good news

I'm more interested in CS than feudailsm. Feud is great for defense, but we want to attack, right? CS will give us a much stronger economic base for further warring. Could you wait with next TS until I can check the save tomorrow night?

 

[Pangaea]

Excellently done Warchief Blubmuz

Great, well done in the war. We should probably build 1 spy and steal something from Mansa before we kill him off.

Was thinking about this too, and think it's a good idea. Do we have enough EP on him to steal something? Mono for example?

I'm more interested in CS than feudailsm.

Agree with this as well. But it sounds like we can't get Feudalism either, so that probably means CS is out of the question too.

Very well done though, we must be in an excellent position now vis a vis the other teams. Though I suppose PD will pull some magic and win by 1AD

 

[BLubmuz]

Sorry as usual i forgot to do... this is becoming an habit.

Shaan, i don't see how we can have CS. Your arguments preach to the converted (we say "break through an open door"), but we have nothing to offer to Mansa, which has it in monopoly, nor we have enough EPs to steal it. We can maybe steal Aestetics. Build a spy and try can be a good idea, i'll se where i can do it, possibly close enough to his borders.

What i need now is a decision on what to trade for what, as i asked in my report.

On another front, the settler/axe are loaded in the galley, which is 2 turns away from land, so we're 3 turns away to settle the city. As i foreseen, Sury's city has its 3rd border, so we can settle in the right spot.

The war with Mansa can maybe wait a few turns after the forced peace, at least until we have the economy in positive @0%. We need also more units and to open a front for the city W of horses. The 2nd galley is slowly built in Vienna. I think that we need 3 to be efficient in ferry troops even using Florence as a hub.

We need another one to see the situation in the barb city, but we need at least a granary first in Gao. It's another good reason to have taken it.

 

[Folket]

Do the trades. Get monotheism from China that should keep us at cautious with both AIs. At least for one more turn as Monotheism is only worth 18 beakers.

Build a spy at once and steal aesthetics from Walata.

 

[Folket]

Also get a worker ASAP to the south continent and hook up our roads to Khmer.

 

[Folket]

I would like to see three farms around Nuremberg. I would 3 whip the rathaus here.

There is 1 forest you can chop into library in Ulm. 2 banana, pigs and rice. Perhaps we can make this a GP farm?

Whip out a worker in Prague.

Whip forge in Mainz.

Whip forge in Aachen.

I would like a galley whip in Gao. Even before granary.

 

[BLubmuz]

I would like to see three farms around Nuremberg. I would 3 whip the rathaus here.

I'm on the fence about this: this city needs time to regrow and in 2 turns we can save 1 pop. we need time to build 3 farms, 2 of the possible tiles are jungled and one worker is already busy with camp/jungle

There is 1 forest you can chop into library in Ulm. 2 banana, pigs and rice. Perhaps we can make this a GP farm?
good idea, i overlooked it. GP farm? yes, i think it's the best city for that

Whip out a worker in Prague.
not in the near future
i know we need workers, but not from Prague

Whip forge in Mainz.
why? better let it grow on the market and build some worker

Whip forge in Aachen.
no whips in Aachen for at least 5 turns, then CH - worker
I would like a galley whip in Gao. Even before granary.
No! We do not know if there's a passage to the W side, that barb city can be surrounded by mountains. In any case, we need to load the galley with 2 good units which we can't have since we need them for Mansa.

 

[Shaandore]

I didn't see the save yet (will look at it tonight), but building Markets is usually not worth it. The same amount of hammers are usually worth more as wealth, and come earlier. Except of course Vienna, Timbuktu and other places with at least 20 commerce OR happiness problem/merchant specialist need (=GP Farm).

Even with 20 commerce, it needs ~60 turns to pay for itself (assuming 50% slider). (= huge opportunity cost!)

 

[Folket]

I'm on the fence about this: this city needs time to regrow and in 2 turns we can save 1 pop. we need time to build 3 farms, 2 of the possible tiles are jungled and one worker is already busy with camp/jungle

There is 1 forest you can chop into library in Ulm. 2 banana, pigs and rice. Perhaps we can make this a GP farm?
good idea, i overlooked it. GP farm? yes, i think it's the best city for that

Whip out a worker in Prague.
not in the near future
i know we need workers, but not from Prague
This city is too happy and I do not see what else it could do that would be more useful.

Whip forge in Mainz.
why? better let it grow on the market and build some worker
Forge gives us 3 happy. We should get as many as possible as soon as possible.

Whip forge in Aachen.
no whips in Aachen for at least 5 turns, then CH - worker
A forge gets us three happiness which is what Aachen needs.

I would like a galley whip in Gao. Even before granary.
No! We do not know if there's a passage to the W side, that barb city can be surrounded by mountains. In any case, we need to load the galley with 2 good units which we can't have since we need them for Mansa.

That is the reason I want to get the galley as soon as possible.

 

[Folket]

Have anyone considered if we want to build the Confucian shrine?

 

[Pangaea]

The religion is only in ours and Mansa's cities, so I don't see the point in that. We won't be spamming missionaries in a war game. If we get an unlucky GProphet, sure, it may be worth it, but it's not something we should prioritise. We'll grab the Buddhist shrine instead at some point, we know that has been built.

I don't like a galley before a granary. A galley there isn't crucial by any means, but a granary sure is.

 

[BLubmuz]

I present this plan to answer to many posts and to have a memo on what to do

Builds:
Aachen: finish archer (2) - forge - LH - Rathaus
Prague: finish archer (2) - finish library, whip 1 pop - worker
Vienna: finish galley (4) - forge, 2 or 3 pop whip - finish Palace - finish Rathaus
Nuremberg: wait 2 turns for 2 pop whip in the Rathaus - forge
Augsburg: Settler (5, less for there's a forest being chopped in 2) for FurryFish, then finish Market, 2 pop whip - forge
Mainz: wait 2 turns to grow 5, worker
Ulm: in 3 turns the worker now clearing a jungle can chop the forest - remember to assign to Ulm, now it belongs to Nuremberg
Florence: rename it in Bridge, finish LH, finish Archer, granary, GLH
Djenne: finish granary (see if whip), Rathaus
Timbuktu: Market, whip on the first or second turn, depends from the happy situation then forge or Rathaus, seen the happiness
Gao: whip granary on second turn
Goldfoot: (guess where it is) monument - WB - granary
Furryfish: will take Florence and i like to keep it! granary

Tech trades and research:
- Khmer: give MC for Calendar
- China: give Currency + CoL for HBR+Alpha+Mono+30g
- start research CS

Miscellaneous:
as soon as calendar is in we have +1 happy empire wide
and another in 10 turns from gold
- turn 0, now
- turn 1 - the settler/axe will land next turn and the galley will back on the same tile
- turn 2 - load worker, back on the same tile
- turn 3 - unload worker, back on the same tile, head to Aachen to load an archer
- turn 4 - start mine+road, ready in 6 (now + 10), road the desert in soon our land along the map border

Do we want to improve the mined bananas?
We already decided to let the 2 cottaged ones (Vienna) as is
Needless to say the farmed will be improved (low priority)

Workers: i know we need more, but i need to see how things move and frankly i don't wanna spend 3 hours in this post. Let me say that i plan to have 4 more workers in 8-10 turns.

World Wonders:
i know it's my weakness, but:
GLH we're probably the only player which can build it, thus it's completely safe.
We have now 4 coastal cities, 5 in 2 turns, 6 when we take Kumbi (12 turns), 7 if the barb city is worth keep (15 turns ?)
+2 TR in 7 cities (assuming we keep the barb) mean +14 to +28 commerce empire wide

I think that Bridge can build it, 29 turns well spent. the granary can wait or can be whipped to 1 turn to completion to max overflow.

Colossus
having copper it's cheap and many cities are working water tiles or will. Aachen can be a good candidate.

Civics:
as soon as i open the game and the trades, we can revolt to HR and OR, probably in 1 turn. I think it's worth.

I plan to play until the 10 turns of forced peace last, then report, post a new plan and finish off Mansa.


Units for the war:
we have already more or less what we need to finish off Mansa. We just need some archer for MP, he does not have units capable of anything. Let's hope he does not arrive to Feud, it's my only concern. THe copper near Walata seems not improved and not even roaded.

I think that 2 or 3 more archers, a couple cats and swords can be enough. ATM i think to have 3 small stacks to send to any of his 3 cities, to make the thing short and efficient. Then we take care of the barb city and move some unit to Goldfoot. For defence. For now.

 

[Folket]

Plantage is way better then mine. We will have a lot of happiness now. Food is what we want. Only thing is we have so many tiles to improve so it is no priority.

I would prefer to put Goldfoot on top of gold. If you plan to build monument here we should build the WB somewhere else.

I think we should have a plan for the big picture. When we attack Suryavarman. What units do we plan to fight with? Is it to late for knights?

 

[BLubmuz]

Plantage is way better then mine. We will have a lot of happiness now. Food is what we want. Only thing is we have so many tiles to improve so it is no priority.
agreed
I would prefer to put Goldfoot on top of gold. If you plan to build monument here we should build the WB somewhere else.
see *)

I think we should have a plan for the big picture. When we attack Suryavarman. What units do we plan to fight with? Is it to late for knights?

*) absolutely not. I cannot be convinced to plant a city over a gold hill, losing production and - mainly - commerce. That city can be more than decent with a gold mine and clams, considerng we'd settle it anyway for strategic reasons.

I also thought to build the WB elsewhere, but Aachen is too faraway and if we decide for the GLH in Bridge remains only Goldfoot itself. But i don't think it will be a problem with a gold mine. In any case i can reconsider Aachen.

About the war plans for Khmer, i just think it's too soon. For now we need to settle and secure the city, to have more galleys and to finish Mansa. An elepult war can be considered, or we can start with elepults and finish with maces. Trebs will be on line for China. For the moment, let me think how to squeeze some units here and there and possibly send some to Goldfoot.

For what i can see, Khmer have iron, but i've not seen any mounted. I think i'll try to unfog all his land before move to China, of which i can see only a border. We should probably bring another chariot there to help exploring.

 

[Shaandore]

Can't look at it now, but could you hold off on playing until tomorrow at least? I will look at the save in a few hours, and I would like to discuss our economic/war and long term plans a bit. After all our speed is steady, especially considering the deadline extension. Will answer your PPP in more detail after a look at the save.

 

[BLubmuz]

Can't look at it now, but could you hold off on playing until tomorrow at least? I will look at the save in a few hours, and I would like to discuss our economic/war and long term plans a bit. After all our speed is steady, especially considering the deadline extension. Will answer your PPP in more detail after a look at the save.

OK, on hold. We need to discuss a lot of things and start planning mid-term.

Some adjustement can be ncessary, i can have overlooked something.

I'd like to play tomorrow night, possibly not later. It's true we're in good shape in terms of turns, but better not let the grass grow under our feet

 

[Shaandore]

I present this plan to answer to many posts and to have a memo on what to do

Builds:
Aachen: finish archer (2) - forge - LH - Rathaus
Prague: finish archer (2) - finish library, whip 1 pop - worker
Vienna: finish galley (4) - forge, 2 or 3 pop whip - finish Palace - finish Rathaus
Nuremberg: wait 2 turns for 2 pop whip in the Rathaus - forge
Augsburg: Settler (5, less for there's a forest being chopped in 2) for FurryFish, then finish Market, 2 pop whip - forge
Market is too expensive to pay for itself here Forge would be much better.
Mainz: wait 2 turns to grow 5, worker
Same: Market is too expensive to pay for itself here Forge would be much better. I feel like we could have saved 60+ gold if we don't start on these markets...
Ulm: in 3 turns the worker now clearing a jungle can chop the forest - remember to assign to Ulm, now it belongs to Nuremberg
Florence: rename it in Bridge, finish LH, finish Archer, granary, GLH
Djenne: finish granary (see if whip), Rathaus
Timbuktu: Market, whip on the first or second turn, depends from the happy situation then forge or Rathaus, seen the happiness
Gao: whip granary on second turn
Goldfoot: (guess where it is) monument - WB - granary
Furryfish: will take Florence and i like to keep it! granary
Why not just FurryFish?

Tech trades and research:
- Khmer: give MC for Calendar
- China: give Currency + CoL for HBR+Alpha+Mono+30g
- start research CS

Agreed.

Miscellaneous:
as soon as calendar is in we have +1 happy empire wide
and another in 10 turns from gold
- turn 0, now
- turn 1 - the settler/axe will land next turn and the galley will back on the same tile
- turn 2 - load worker, back on the same tile
- turn 3 - unload worker, back on the same tile, head to Aachen to load an archer
- turn 4 - start mine+road, ready in 6 (now + 10), road the desert in soon our land along the map border

Do we want to improve the mined bananas?
I think it's better mined. We have other banas, and I guess AIs too, so not exactly trade bait if we have more.
We already decided to let the 2 cottaged ones (Vienna) as is
Needless to say the farmed will be improved (low priority)

Workers: i know we need more, but i need to see how things move and frankly i don't wanna spend 3 hours in this post. Let me say that i plan to have 4 more workers in 8-10 turns.

I think 4 is a bit too much. It's not that bad, we aren't growing that fast. We wil need 4-5 only when CS comes online and we need cahining.

World Wonders:
i know it's my weakness, but:
GLH we're probably the only player which can build it, thus it's completely safe.
We have now 4 coastal cities, 5 in 2 turns, 6 when we take Kumbi (12 turns), 7 if the barb city is worth keep (15 turns ?)
+2 TR in 7 cities (assuming we keep the barb) mean +14 to +28 commerce empire wide

I think that Bridge can build it, 29 turns well spent. the granary can wait or can be whipped to 1 turn to completion to max overflow.

This might be a good job for an otherwise useless city, good idea!

Colossus
having copper it's cheap and many cities are working water tiles or will. Aachen can be a good candidate.

IMO it's not worth the hammer investment.

Civics:
as soon as i open the game and the trades, we can revolt to HR and OR, probably in 1 turn. I think it's worth.

I plan to play until the 10 turns of forced peace last, then report, post a new plan and finish off Mansa.

Great. Before DoW, we could demand CS and if he is not willing, then Aesthetics.

Units for the war:
we have already more or less what we need to finish off Mansa. We just need some archer for MP, he does not have units capable of anything. Let's hope he does not arrive to Feud, it's my only concern. The copper near Walata seems not improved and not even roaded.

Why didn't you make the healer? I see both the general and the chariot sitting around, and our units are on slow-heal mode. (Not a problem in peace, but it should be ready and in place once we are ready to attack Mansa)

I think that 2 or 3 more archers, a couple cats and swords can be enough. ATM i think to have 3 small stacks to send to any of his 3 cities, to make the thing short and efficient. Then we take care of the barb city and move some unit to Goldfoot. For defence. For now.

Some words on worker management, settlers and such:

Vienna doesn't have enough attention IMO. It is building a Galley, but will grow soon. It would be nice to have the last green riverside tile cottaged up by the time it grows. The Palace chopping is also a priority for the extra Happy (and for getting the academy bonus). Forge is much more important than a Galley that could be built by eg. Aachen. Forges give us Happy bonus, exactly +3 and hammer multiplier. They are much better all around builds than Markets (Cheaper too).

Augsburg has its problems too. We still have the copper unmined, but we are chopping into a building that would give us 2 gpt per turn, but takes 150 hammers. And we are working 2! yes, 2 unimproved tiles while there is an improved pig and an improved rice lying around. If we grew into 2 unhappy and whipped a forge, we would have no happy problems left. Instead we are stagnating while working green forests...

The other cities are doing fine (except for specialization), but more on this later, because this post getting long, so new thoughts in next post...

 

[Shaandore]

We need to decide city specializations. WE put that off for too long already, and I see cottages everywhere

City list, and some ideas on their specialization:

- Aachen: whipping center for warring. Has some hammers too, those are always nice. Too bad for the cottages.
- Prague: slower whipping center with more hammers. The kind of place where one likes to do 7->4 and 6->4 whips. City is fully functional with Rice Farm, 3 mines and 3 Farms. I think those cottages won't really be used...

(these brave cottages have 4 turns invested altogether, so gave us 4 gold during these grave times)

- Vienna cottage bureau capital. We need it to have 2 more cottages built ASAP. It could pass one cottage to Augs while it starts on 2 new cottages (one for now, the second when it grows)

- Nuremberg: candidate for commerce city with an okay hammer output. Let it work the cottages and gems and ivory and the lake, will be very nice in the long run.

- Augsburg: maintains 2 cottages, but in heart a production center. Has a lot of food. I think this city is best used as Globe whip place. Will give us advanced units 1/turn indefinitely.

- Mainz: very decent food with some hammers and farming potential. Great for GP farm.

- Ulm: Minor whiup city with food resources. Could help Nuremberg's cottages while we are in peace.

- Florence: We knew this city won't be a big thing, it already gave us what it was built for, and will probably grant us GLH if Blub's plan works

- Djenne: with 3 green hills this looks like a decent prod city, so let it be. I'd mine the Rice hill too.

- Timbuktu: overall great city, obviously very strong commerce spot. WE might want to rethink this as capital with its 15(!) BFC cottages and perfectly placed cottage helper

- Gao: Cottage helper for Vienna, and can whip some ships for the west

 

[Shaandore]

So I will stop spamming, last post with some ideas:

- Settling new cities should be done sooner rather than later. They won't be able to contribute if we delay them more. This means red spot between Vienna and Mainz. Nit for the cottages, but for the pigs and some green tiles is enough to make a city worthwile. (we can farm it up and just whip the hell out of it) We have every tech to make a big empire maintainable.

Going forward with that thought, we should settle/take:
- Gold, FurryFish as discussed
- Ivory and Crab E of Aachen
- Red spot W of Vienna
- Random Pig city in the NE corner
- Mansa's cities
- Filler city 1SW of Ulm's lake
- Rice city 3W1N of Walata
- Barb city W on the island W of Gao to have access to the west

That should be all we need to take out everybody.

After CS, a detour to Lit and Drama would be very welcome for HE and Globe. Then beeline some Military tech. We need to start planning for a decent unit so we can Attack. I think trebs+pikes+knights+maces pretty much take care of everything until Rifles, so that is what we should aim for.

We need to think if there is something big military tech that we could bulb on this path. Luckily we can get a few GPs now because we didn't really go crazy on them in the early game. I have almost no experience with bulbing anything but Lib line, so I will just leave this to you, guys.

 

[BLubmuz]

Some words on worker management, settlers and such:

Vienna doesn't have enough attention IMO. It is building a Galley, but will grow soon. It would be nice to have the last green riverside tile cottaged up by the time it grows. The Palace chopping is also a priority for the extra Happy (and for getting the academy bonus). Forge is much more important than a Galley that could be built by eg. Aachen. Forges give us Happy bonus, exactly +3 and hammer multiplier. They are much better all around builds than Markets (Cheaper too).
But Augsburg does. And that is the use of a cottage helper. As soon as Vienna grows it take back its cottages matured by Augsburg, which can start working the ones i'm building
Augsburg has its problems too. We still have the copper unmined, but we are chopping into a building that would give us 2 gpt per turn, but takes 150 hammers. And we are working 2! yes, 2 unimproved tiles while there is an improved pig and an improved rice lying around. If we grew into 2 unhappy and whipped a forge, we would have no happy problems left. Instead we are stagnating while working green forests...
That's why we need workers. But you can be right i wish to avoid to grow into unhappiness, better grow and whip some happy building
The other cities are doing fine (except for specialization), but more on this later, because this post getting long, so new thoughts in next post...

So i can breath.

Market is too expensive to pay for itself here Forge would be much better.

A forge gives a boost in production and happiness. A market gives a economic boost when we run 0% research and happiness. Then we can run merchant specialists. Since we plan to continue run slavery - and it's OK - hire some merchant can be useful. Then at the time i started them i counted on +3 happy and +2 for forges which we could not build.

Why not just FurryFish?

Because i like Florence. I'm italian, remember? Pity Venice is not in the game. It's even shorter.

I think it's better mined. We have other banas, and I guess AIs too, so not exactly trade bait if we have more.

Agreed if after CS we chain 2 farms to the rice. 1 of them useless.

workers

OK 3 is sold.

on Colossus: IMO it's not worth the hammer investment.

it is, IMO. We can chop a forest when we have the copper hooked. 3 turns, i think. Those water tiles will be like villages. Do you see how many fresh water we have?