SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

Checking in

Welcome to the new members. Be prepared for a loong thread .

Where is mabraham btw? still skiing?

I don't know what happened to mabraham. I suspect he is busy with his new job, and moved on to other things. He never responded to my message.

Re: starting options

I think we should move the scout on that forest GH south and the archer 1NW.
Maybe something 2NW may justify the settlement on the banana.

We should test, but chopping first seems strong.

I think we might want to explore farther afield. Perhaps moving the scout 2N2W, and the archer 1S1W.

Perhaps we want to find better lands that are closer to a potential neighbor.

The starting area does suck, but I can see settling on the banana and chopping forests to get another settler quickly too.

 

[WastinTime]

1) Shore separation requires Galleys
2) Ocean separation requires Galleons
3a) Mountain range separation requires Paratroopers
3b) Arctic Ice flows separation requires Paratroopers

I'm going to predict "separated by impassible' is in this game. But I would not jump to the conclusions in 3a and 3b 'requires paratroopers'. This problem might be solved by teleporting for example, but I'm not predicting that. Instead I'm hoping we can beat all the paratrooper teams by planting a city next to the mountains/ice and culture flipping a city on the other side. If I was mapmaker, I would have set up this possibility.

Seems like the key to this game is 'explore'. We need to know what tricks and techs are required. We should prepare for a quick optics.

 

[WastinTime]

I think we might want to explore farther afield.
Perhaps we want to find better lands that are closer to a potential neighbor.

+1. The lack of hills is disturbing. The only thing that scares me about moving our settler far (again) is that it worked so well last game and the mapmaker seemed to consider that a small mistake on his part (i think). I imagine he will work hard to make sure no one stumbles on a much greater spot.

If this were a random map, I would 100% head out looking for copper/horses. What are the chances of that with a hand-crafted map?

 

[WastinTime]

Remember: our IMP trait does not work when we build settlers with food. Only hammers get the multiple.

 

[Manco Capac]

Remember: our IMP trait does not work when we build settlers with food. Only hammers get the multiple.

Slavery. We got it. And if we had to move our settler and lose a turn, it doesn't matter as the lost turn, we'll switch into slavery.

 

[bcool]

re: worker steals

In my limited test game experience. Either one of the 4 initial archers does go out exploring (and randomly protecting the workers) or the AI frequently builds another archer who protects the workers.

Of course an axe or chariot should still be able to steal workers for us. And there are times when the workers might still be unprotected.

re: barbarians

barbarian galleys do start appearing quickly since everyone starts with sailing. If we do settle by the coast for the crabs it might be hard to keep the crabs for very long.

 

[sossos]

Seems like the key to this game is 'explore'. We need to know what tricks and techs are required. We should prepare for a quick optics.

Remember: our IMP trait does not work when we build settlers with food. Only hammers get the multiple.

I'd like to emphasize these two points with more explanation:

1. The grand strategy of when to stop tech impacts all micro and infra decisions in this conquest game. We have to know the AI's location, their tiles and tile improvements, soldiers as early as possible. This sometimes conflicts with the growth, but we need to always bear in mind to sacrifice some growth if needed.
2. The IMP trait favors 4->2 whipping the settler, and whipping C2 is almost no-brainer superior to any other investment. Here's the comparison between C2, WB and granary
C2: The return rate of 5H/67H (22F=30H for a new city) is the minimum. With more food resource, the return rate would be higher.
Granary: because of the happiness cap, the actual gain is 3H/60H at the beginning
WB: can be chopped at the same time of whipping settlers if we don't move too far.

Then the first question now is: shall we scout with the worker for 2 turns as the earliest WB will come at T7? The worker may scout at T1 and T2, and move on to 1 tree at T3. I prefer to scouting but it also depends on what we find with each movement of the archer/scout/worker. We may also analyze whether to move the settler or not.

Step 1: scout moves 1NW
Step 2: No clue as it depends on what the scout sees

Edit: There's jungle to the north, isn't it? I doubt that we can find a better spot, but let's just try.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

...
Are those 4 archers under UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE. I assume yes.
...

Would the map maker change the Archer scripts to something else? Its possible, but I agree with Tachywaxon that the scripts are UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE.

I agree with WastinTime that teleport tactics should be used when appropriate, but I would assume that the map maker would allow conventional attacks through impassable terrain via Paratroopers at the very least.

I also would not be surprised if cultural attacks may be possible under certain city positioning when both teleports and Paratroopers can not breach the impassable area.

I'm guessing that it would even be possible to sent Spies on a submarine under "impassable ice" to the enemy city to perform Spread Culture missions until the city revolts to us.

How does the City Flipping after Conquest option affect us? This may be another way we can use the Spread Culture espionage mission to good effect.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[sossos]

re: barbarians

barbarian galleys do start appearing quickly since everyone starts with sailing. If we do settle by the coast for the crabs it might be hard to keep the crabs for very long.

Good point especially when the galley itself cannot defend babarians well. This suggests a strong inclination to move innerland.

 

[bcool]

I believe the barbarian galley will not enter our cultural borders until the minimum number of cities is reached (but this would only delay the pillaging of the crabs not prevent it).

By the way when sossos says C2 he means city 2. It took me a bit of time to figure it out.

also sossos do you have an opinion on exploiting the AI with subsidized resource trades?

 

[shulec]

2. The IMP trait favors 4->2 whipping the settler, and whipping C2 is almost no-brainer superior to any other investment. Here's the comparison between C2, WB and granary
C2: The return rate of 5H/67H (22F=30H for a new city) is the minimum. With more food resource, the return rate would be higher.
Granary: because of the happiness cap, the actual gain is 3H/60H at the beginning
WB: can be chopped at the same time of whipping settlers if we don't move too far.

Then the first question now is: shall we scout with the worker for 2 turns as the earliest WB will come at T7? The worker may scount at T1 and T2, and move on to 1 tree at T3. I prefer to scouting but it also depends on what we find with each movement of the archer/scout/worker. We may also analyze whether to move the settler or not.

Xpost (maybe I can figure it out now!)

@Sossos
Can you clarify this point for me. First off, I don't know what you are referring to by "C2" and secondarily, I don't really know what your ratios are signifying. Thanks.

 

[Manco Capac]

Good point especially when the galley itself cannot defend babarians well. This suggests a strong inclination to move innerland.

Nobody ever heard about fogbusting.
That's the best way to kill galleys. Still, I haven't tested myself how early they spawn.
Important detail to know if a WB is on the build list: Barb galleys rush for pillageable plots at 7 plots of distance. That's their "inner radar" range.

This suggests a strong inclination to move innerland.

I thought you hate such sort of gambling.

I believe the barbarian galley will not enter our cultural borders until the minimum number of cities is reached (but this would only delay the pillaging of the crabs not prevent it).

True as far as I know. AREAAI_OFFENSIVE general move applied to all UNITAI_ATTACK barbs units (barb galleys also receive this promo) will happen just like a normal IMM game on ancient era. The sole difference in this format is the starting techs the barb nation will receive for free. I shall see what the barbs got. Will edit if I find something.

@sossos

You should release your test games and attach them on your post. You are prolly (or perhaps) using the ducks way of speaking we're not used to.

Seems like the key to this game is 'explore'.

For all games in fact except AW games.

 

[kcd_swede]

Hmm true. I tend to forgot swede sometimes try to be evil. Sometimes.

I just make it unwinnable for myself, and you guys can finish in about 80 turns no problem. So judging how evil to be is a delicate thing. Good luck and have fun!

 

[Manco Capac]

Terrible. In a normal IMM game starting from 4000 BC, never we're gonna see such an advanced barb nation. They normally tech so slow...we can see 49 turns just for Archery (from anterior experiences).

Spoiler :

Additional info about the AI, which is also a crucial point to crush our opponents asap.

Spoiler :

 

[sossos]

I believe the barbarian galley will not enter our cultural borders until the minimum number of cities is reached (but this would only delay the pillaging of the crabs not prevent it).

Yes, more calculation is needed if we do find some good spot around. As for now, the detail calculation may be futile because of incomplete information.

By the way when sossos says C2 he means city 2. It took me a bit of time to figure it out.

Sorry for that but you get it.

also sossos do you have an opinion on exploiting the AI with subsidized resource trades?

I have no objection to using that trick, since it's not banned.

reply in blue

 

[sossos]

Nobody ever heard about fogbusting.
That's the best way to kill galleys. Still, I haven't tested myself how early they spawn.
Important detail to know if a WB is on the build list: Barb galleys rush for pillageable plots at 7 plots of distance. That's their "inner radar" range.

Fog busting also costs a lot if you want 100% barb-proof. 3 warriors = 45 hammer + 3 gold/turn in the extreme case. Anyway, we need more info to judge.

I thought you hate such sort of gambling.

No, I'll calculate the risk and the average expectaion. I just need more information by scouting for 1 or 2 more turns. Your idea of anachy is a good choice.


True as far as I know. AREAAI_OFFENSIVE general move applied to all UNITAI_ATTACK barbs units (barb galleys also receive this promo) will happen just like a normal IMM game on ancient era. The sole difference in this format is the starting techs the barb nation will receive for free. I shall see what the barbs got. Will edit if I find something.

@sossos

You should release your test games and attach them on your post. You are prolly (or perhaps) using the ducks way of speaking we're not used to.

It takes time. I will learn from what you are saying and gradually change the way how I'm organizing my words.

For all games in fact except AW games.

Exploration takes money: the hammers on WB/warrior(it can be a sunken cost if the warrior cannot return in 15 turns), the maintanence cost and the most important one---opportunity cost. How much investment on scouting differs greatly between games. When WiT emphasizes "exploration", I think he needs more investment on exploration at the early age, which may impact growth quite a bit. This appeal mainly comes from the victory condition, non-ancien start and the UU. We may need to do more calculation on the exploration ROI than other games

reply in blue

 

[sossos]

Xpost (maybe I can figure it out now!)

@Sossos
Can you clarify this point for me. First off, I don't know what you are referring to by "C2" and secondarily, I don't really know what your ratios are signifying. Thanks.

C2 =city 2

when you invest $100 of stock and you get $1 as dividend in each period(in civ, the interval is 1 turn), the return rate is 1/100.

The whipped setter costs only 67 normalized hammers. The intial reproductive gain is 2f + 1h +1f/1h. As 22f=30h, the gain is around 5 normalized hammers at least. The commerce is not reproductive in the short term.

The granary doubles the output of food, changing the f/h ratio from 1:1 to 1:2. However, because of happiness cap, the food surplus over 3 cannot enjoy the 1:2 ratio. This is why I said that the return rate of granary is 3/60. Especially for IMP civ, there's less chance to do 6->3 whip in the first 100 turns, so the importance of granary is a bit lower than normal civs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

We shall don't trust TMIT then.

EDIT: Fail of me. He doesn't play...

High on life Tachy. High on life. So much so that I would indeed be a risk to unleash as a turn player.

Whatever the map type, we should maybe expect heavy modification by the map maker.

Yes. I don't know that we want to go in with assumptions of a map type even if we knew it. A map maker could easily turn a Pangaea into a continents script with 2 super minor civs, or add a 5 wide ocean divider into oasis etc. Exploration is a useful thing.

It occurs to me that two Bananas and a Crab is a very strange starting location, since Bananas are usually in tropical areas and Crab is usually near either polar region.

I don't trust the mapmaker either way. Let's pretend it's that for now until we see more evidence. More importantly, the distribution of food and typing gives us a variety of interesting choices with this start:

1. Visible food is limited until calendar, and we are also not ideal in
2. We can settle on the banana for a faster opening, at the expense of long-term in capitol. That said, this capitol is not exactly a powerhouse where it is no matter what we do.
3. Anybody else notice the lack of 1 2 or 0 3 tiles? Getting the workboat out will be a pain! We need to research fishing AND mining/BW if we intend to whip it, all on base palace grrr.
4. It sure LOOKS like we're on the edge of the map.

Jungle to the north, so moves other than west aren't promising...we need to scout first.

I think it is possible that this will be a non-teching game, but not likely. I assume there will be an ocean and/or land barrier that will require teching to Astronomy, if not further to paratroopers as STW suggested.

Galleons are not hard to reach quickly. Paras are, of course, going to take longer.

 

[sossos]

3. Anybody else notice the lack of 1 2 or 0 3 tiles? Getting the workboat out will be a pain! We need to research fishing AND mining/BW if we intend to whip it, all on base palace grrr.

This is not a game of ancient start.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with a more formal structuring of each turn set as bcool suggested in post #2 into:

1) Reviewing and changing, if necessary, our Grand Strategy
2) Describing our Goals at the intermediate Strategy and Logistics level.
3) Describing in detail our micromanagement at both Tactical City level and Tactical Unit level

The above is meant to paraphrase bcool's three PPP phases from post #2 without any change in meaning using slightly different terminology for those familiar with it.

We can probably define PPP templates for each of these three levels of PPP and eventually detailed examples that players can refer to.

It's not clear to me how much time we should spend re-evaluating our Grand Strategy. I'm thinking that the player's "got the save" notice should include whether the Grand Strategy will remain as is or not. Any team member can also suggest changes to the Grand Strategy after the end of the previous turn set. If it is determined that the Grand Strategy needs changes, we should allow at least 24 hours for revising and 24 hours for review and more as needed. We need to formalize this just a bit (perhaps as stated above), otherwise we might fall into our old habit of ignoring the Grand Strategy step when starting each new turn set.

Our formal turn set might now be described as:

1) Grand Strategy PPP: 0 hours if no changes needed; 48 plus as many more needed to finalize changes
2) Goal PPP: 24 hours to write; one or more 24 hour review/rewrite periods.
3) Micromanage PPP: 24 hours to write; one or more 24 hour review/rewrite periods (usually just one review period, since we have spent significant time ensuring our goals are well defined).

The above is more or less how I perceive each turn set proceeding this game based on what bcool stated in post #2.

I hope the above is helpful to other team members. (At least it seems to help me.)

Sun Tzu Wu