SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Dhoomstriker]

Oh, I forgot to mention that by giving away Horse City, we'll get more Forest Chops available for Aachen... they aren't strong ones, though... two 13-Hammer Chops for Horse City will turn into two 9-Hammer Chops for Aachen... that's 2 turns saved on The Pyramids, which could still be worth the Worker turn investment.


RE: Rice Peninsula City

We are nearly ready to grow to size 4. Another option is to whip TWO WB, at 1 pop each... We would then have one for exploring IF silver-bridge works as hoped.

Sounds good to me. If we didn't know Currency, I'd be concerned about the loss of Commerce, but being able to build Wealth should help us out through such tricky times.

Temple? is it worth setting up a temple whip now that we have COnfu there? Just an idea that could be considered.

It's not worth diverting Hammers in Aachen away from The Pyramids unless we plan to complete a build item. The problem with a Temple is that it only earns us 10 extra Hammers... while an Axeman earns us 30 extra Hammers minus the Hammers in addition to 4 Hammers that one would normally make in a turn that you have to intentionally "not earn" during the first turn of building the Axeman, also minus any excess overflow Hammers.

We make 7 base Hammers there, so we'd lose 3 base Hammers when building the Axeman/Spearman and are forced to work a regular Grassland square or a non-Lighthoused Coast square for a turn.
4 + 60 + 7 = 71 Hammers, but only 35 Hammers can overflow, so 1 Hammer will get converted into Gold

Thus, we'll earn 30 base Hammers but will not earn 3 + 1 base Hammers, meaning that we'll earn 26 base Hammers from whipping an Axeman or a Spearman, compared to 10 base Hammers for a Temple.

Maybe we'd do one of each (first a Temple and then a Spearman), although we'd delay our Golden Age's Great Person by whipping away 5 population points in a short period of time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Forests for Aachen include:
i. 4E GH For for 13 Hammers
ii. NE + 3N G For for 13 Hammers
iii. 5N G For (1S of the G Jungle Banana) for 9 Hammers, but only if we give away Horse City
iv. NW + 4N G For (1SW of the G Jungle Banana) for 9 Hammers, but only if we give away Horse City

A nice thing about giving Horse City to Mansa is that he will get the Monument, so his Cultural Borders will expand over top of the relevant Resources.

In the meantime, he'll spread Confucianism to that City so that when we recapture the City, it will only take us 7 turns for our Cultural Borders to expand over top of the Resources, even though the Monument won't exist at that point in time anymore.

 

[Jastrow]

I dont understand the 7 turns... HOw is it not either 5 or 10?? I dont think it particularly matters for the decision, but where is the 7 comming from?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We already have 3 Culture in Horse City. 10 - 3 = 7.

When we recapture the City, we'll keep those 3 Culture, even though we gifted away the City (we will keep the City Culture but will give up the City Centre square's Culture)... the number that we care about is the number that won't disappear. I just confirmed this fact against Monte, but, we would destroy the Monument upon capturing the City, so it would take:
a) 7 turns if Confucianism is there and we don't whip a new Monument
OR
b) 8 turns if Confucianism is not there and we do whip a new Monument after 1 turn
OR
c) 4 turns if Confucianism is there and we whip a new Monument after 1 turn

Optionally, we could wait to give the City to Mansa until we've built up a bit more Culture there, but I think that giving it now makes more sense, so that he'll send his Missionary there and thus he will be able to start sending Workers to the "newly discovered Junglified Resources" in his territory in about 7 or 8 turns' time from now.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm opposed to gifting away Horse City. It's just too much of a stretch to me. Too much has to be line up perfectly for it to work. I think we'll get IW in a timely manner and could hook up the gems sooner ourselves compared to:

a. gifting the city to Mansa.
b. waiting for the borders to pop. 10 turns
c. having him connect the gems. 8 turns?
d. building an army and taking the city. in parallel
e. waiting for it to come out of revolt. 4 turns?
f. building a culture building should Confucianism not be there. 0 turns to 12 turns.
g. waiting for borders to pop. 10 turns.

I see no way that this would be faster than just hanging on to the city...


Regarding the SW, can we get a unit loaded onto the galley? I'm almost sure that we're going to meet an AI down that way if we follow the peaks. In fact, I think we may have missed an opportunity by waiting so long to send an exploring boat down there.

EDIT: XPOST

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We'll want to Farm the wet Banana by Ivory City soon.

We might even want another Settler out of Prague before whipping that Temple.

With Prague's Cultural Borders about to expand, we can Chop 2 Forests into Dual Banana's Granary and then it can just keep slowly growing while working riverside Cottages (initially stealing the Banana, then working the Flood Plains square and later some Grassland River squares).

 

[Jastrow]

Mitchum.... I am confused... How are you suggesting we could have made progress down there before Silver-bridge is up??

 

[Dhoomstriker]

b. waiting for the borders to pop. 10 turns

His Confucian Missionary can arrive in 5 turns' time, meaning 4 turns of 1 Culture and 3 turns of 2 Culture = 7 turns

He's more likely to prioritize his own Cities before our Cities and his Missionary won't have a "target City" yet since it was just completed and is sitting in Djenne, awaiting his orders at the start of next turn. Djenne and not Timbuktu must have built that Confucian Missionary, since Djenne is not an even number of 4-Road-squares away from Djenne.

c. having him connect the gems. 8 turns?

Can you do it much faster than him? Well, you can pre-Road the Gems square with our Worker. Hey, you can do that for Mansa, too! Look at that! You saved Mansa some turns getting it online!

d. building an army and taking the city. in parallel

Horse City won't contribute much in this regard, since it doesn't have any Food Resources to help it whip. I'm not sure how owning versus not owning this City will have a significant impact on how many Military Units we can produce.

e. waiting for it to come out of revolt. 4 turns?

Since we have some Culture in the City, the City Revolt time will be reduced.

f. building a culture building should Confucianism not be there. 0 turns to 12 turns.
g. waiting for borders to pop. 10 turns.

6 turns while working the Horse at Size 1 or 2 turns to whip a new Monument if the City is at Size 2 or larger.

So, 6 + 7 = 13 turns in the worst case for steps f + g (in addition to step e), but by then we should have been able to get Monotheism in trade and be in Organized Religion, so building a Missionary ourselves could work... but, since Mansa JUST finished building a Confucian Missionary, we should have no need to spread Confucianism there ourselves.

I see no way that this would be faster than just hanging on to the city...

Even if Mansa DOES get Alphabet, say, next turn, we're going to have a lot of Jungle squares that we'd like to Chop. Having Mansa help us out on up to 5 of those Resources will help us out and if he doesn't complete all 5, we'll have his Workers in a location where they will be "easy pickings." So, we'll gain even more Worker turns... Mansa's Worker turns now, while we're at Peace and Mansa's Worker turns later after we capture his Workers. Good luck capturing his Workers otherwise, without a Woodsman II unit, given how much his Cultural Borders have expanded around all other likely locations to find his Workers.

Regarding the SW, can we get a unit loaded onto the galley? I'm almost sure that we're going to meet an AI down that way if we follow the peaks. In fact, I think we may have missed an opportunity by waiting so long to send an exploring boat down there.

No, we cannot. kcd_swede put in an Ocean square along the coast to block us (impassible for Work Boats and Galleys, just like near Stone Island). We'll minimally need 1 Cultural Border expansion and possibly several Cultural Border expansions before any naval unit prior to a Caravel can go there.

 

[Mitchum]

OK. I did not notice that there was an ocean square along the peaks 2S of the banana resource. Usually you can move work boats and galleys along mountains. That wasn't very nice of KCD to make that an ocean. I wonder if it was on purpose.

I'm still opposed to gifting horse city. What will it cost to take the city? We'll lose the monument when we capture it. We'll likely lose the granary (should Mansa build one) as we would have one in the city if we just held onto it. That city is currently generating +2 net commerce//turn. I'm not sure if gifting the city away will lower the "Number of Cities" maintenance in other cities though. Once the granary is in, this city could build an additional +5 gold per turn. We'll lose 1 pop when taking the city. To take the city, we're likely going to need 5 to 7 axes (or more). So we'll be building axes instead of wealth in several cities. These axes will increase our unit cost. So, for a chance at a worker or three and the chance the Mansa actually does something useful for with his workers for a chance at having 2 or 3 resources improved for us.

I just don't see a big enough up side to make it worth the effort.

@ Jastrow What do you think?

 

[kcd_swede]

That wasn't very nice of KCD to make that an ocean. I wonder if it was on purpose.

No, I delegated that task to Mini-Me, and his little fingers had difficulty with the keyboard.

 

[Mitchum]

@ Dhoom

Did you play WOTM 50? Did you go Space? Do you know how to make 200% non-bombardable defenses?

 

[Jastrow]

OK. I did not notice that there was an ocean square along the peaks 2S of the banana resource. Usually you can move work boats and galleys along mountains. That wasn't very nice of KCD to make that an ocean. I wonder if it was on purpose.

I am thinking it is (despite the ambiguous poste by KCD below)... That is one of the main premis behind the silver-bridge idea. I am assuming that it was planed that we need to culture bridge over that square to get to the next AI (without Astro)

I'm still opposed to gifting horse city....

...I just don't see a big enough up side to make it worth the effort.

@ Jastrow What do you think?

It is an interesting idea, and I have to admit that when I first heard it, my gut reaction what that it was a good one, but the more I look at the numbers, the more I am against it. While it is an inspired idea, I dont think it is profitable in this specific situation. I think we should keep the city.

 

[Mitchum]

Dhoom likes to throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks. If you don't stop him early enough, he gets married to the idea and then it's nearly impossible to bring him back...

If KCD did make some coastal tiles into oceans, I get the one in the SW but I'm not sure about the two near our island. I think that was just a plain mistake on his part...

 

[Jastrow]

I agree... I assume the ones near the island are copy/paste, or whatever similar world-builder error is involved in making maps (I am clueless on the topic), but the one south of Silver-bridge looks intentional to me.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Dhoom likes to throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks. If you don't stop him early enough, he gets married to the idea and then it's nearly impossible to bring him back...

Oh, no! I threw myself at the wall and now I am stuck, too!

To play devil's advocate, one of my arguments has a flaw: we can't both get a Spearman for free AND gift Horse City this turn, so I'd want to check in a test game if an AI that builds a Missionary can "reroute" the Missionary "mid-movement" to one of his own Cities or not, as the answer to that would have a minor impact (3 more turns of the Resources at Horse City not being under Mansa's Cultural control).


To be fair, while kcd_swede is just as fallible as the rest of us, I will give him credit in this case for having given us a clue that "something might not be right with the world's waters" by putting the Ocean-only coastal squares close to our starting area.

The Railroad is probably also supposed to be some sort of a clue, as well, probably demarking the "quarter" of the world that we have or at least hinting at that idea.


Anyway, I played around with Missionary-spreading and Monte seemed to target "the City that my Missionary can get to the fastest." So, if there is a Road to Horse City from Djenne, then Horse City will get the Missionary, otherwise he'll pick a City that is closer in terms of the number of turns it takes to walk there. It does not seem to matter whether we own Horse City or whether Monte owns Horse City.


So, basically, 10 turns from when we gift Horse City to Mansa, he will be able to start Chopping the Jungles that we want him to Chop.


Anyway, City ownership is a tricky thing... having Culture in a City allows you to have a higher chance of keeping the Buildings when the City gets captured, have a higher chance of not losing a population point when the City is captured, and have a higher chance of reducing the City revolt status (I'm not sure if it's formulaic where you can get the revolt time reduced or if it is just "you either get a full revolt or you don't get one").

To take the city, we're likely going to need 5 to 7 axes (or more).

No. Why would we build Axemen? We'd be targeting Horseback Riding so that after we complete The Pyramids we can spam Horse Archers.

Monte was more than happy to trade Horse + 1 GPT <-> Ivory + Marble, which is a trade that we can make in the real game. EDIT: And then we'd recapture Horse City ASAP, so there'd only be a minor delay in building additional Horse Archers if the City did experience a bit of City revolt.


So, it's not as ideal as I had hoped... we'll have to wait for 10 turns for Mansa's Cultural Borders to expand, but at the same time, his Cultural Borders won't expand TOO much, but by the time that we're ready to retake the City it should be a highly-functional City that likely just finished receiving Confucianism.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, so we all seem to agree how awesome it was that Mansa was able to improve the G Pig Jungle for us by GP Farm and Prague.

So, it would be great if Mansa could do so for us elsewhere.

Think bigger picture here. Being able to capture 2 or 3 more of his Workers in the medium term (say, 2 turnsets from now) is pretty solid.

Also, we can be sneaky about it by pillaging the Road to Horse City... the Road that is SE + SE of Horse City. That way, Mansa will be forced to send Workers to connect up Horse City to his Trade Network (do you recall how desperate he was to try and connect Djenne to his capital?).

On the downside, we won't get Horse in trade as long as the Roads aren't connected, but it's going to be a while before we research Horseback Riding anyway, so we'll be busy building Wealth.


Our net gain by gifting-away Horse City is 1 Spearman (good to stuff into Prague to prevent any tricky business from Mansa) and a net amount of 4 GPT.

Our net loss is 2 Food and 5 Hammers per turn. But, even getting +1 Happiness from the Gem Resource sooner will totally blow that amount away, and we'll also be expecting to get the Pig and Rice Resources also improved. The Bananas will only get improved if Mansa gets Calendar.


I think that the net gain Mansa's Worker turns now, Mansa's Worker turns later (when we capture his Workers), MORE FORESTS for us to Chop later... Mansa is busy making Djenne Cottages by the looks of the missing Forests due to having nothing better to do with his Workers... let's give those Workers something better to do (Road-building plus Resource-improving for us), and a chance for the AI to use his Immortal Level bonuses to help us out... AIs can grow their Cities far more quickly than we can and on the turn that we declare war, Horse City will be ours again, so Mansa won't be able to whip the City.


Plus, as I said, we'd have 2 more Forest Chops that can go into our capital, each of those Chops saving us 1 turn on completing The Pyramids.


It also gives us an excuse to launch a war against Mansa later just to capture his western coastal City... we'll be getting some Workers during that war (and, obviously, Horse City back).


Mess with the AIs... they won't understand what hit them and they won't be able to deal with the weird situations that we put them into!

 

[Mitchum]

I'm still not buying what you're selling, Dhoom. I'm not convinced that Mansa will get any resources hooked up before we'd be able to do it. Even if he can, it won't be by enough to matter nor is it worth the opportunity cost of not having the city ourselves in my opinion. We'll have other ways to get workers too.

 

[chopster]

I'll have a good look over things this evening but it's a pretty short window now for me to play turns this week - less than five days from now I'll be offline for 3 or so full days.

At this stage if we can plan a short turnset I'm hopeful I can get some played before I go.

I'm not sure about horse city gift at this stage. I might play around in a test game to see how likely some of these scenarios for Mansa improving things are if I get a chance.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@Jastrow

Do you recall which 2 units Mansa had in Kumbi Saleh (his third City)? Was it 2 Skirms?

It does look like between the time that we first walked by that City, Mansa managed to improve the Gem Mine, since the Jungle is gone from that square now (there was a Jungle on the G Gems square in Jastrow's screenshot).


Kumbi Saleh also has had a Monument for a while--at least 20 turns, since it had expanded its Cultural Borders in Jastrow's screenshot but Confucianism wasn't in that City at the time (but Confucianism is there now).


I guess that our Warrior can go to Fish City.


We don't have a boat to send a unit over to Island City, though, so it may have to build its own Archer later (perhaps after Police State is in use?).


There was talk of trying to send a unit on a Galley... obviously, such a unit might not be able to go anywhere for a while, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared... so... shall we aim to build a Chariot to be completed about 10 turns from now (maybe not in this upcoming turnset if it's going to be a short turnset)?

 

[Jastrow]

@Jastrow

Do you recall which 2 units Mansa had in Kumbi Saleh (his third City)? Was it 2 Skirms?

I think so, but I am not 100% sure... It was nothing better than a skirmisher.

It does look like between the time that we first walked by that City, Mansa managed to improve the Gem Mine, since the Jungle is gone from that square now (there was a Jungle on the G Gems square in Jastrow's screenshot).

Yep, he has been a busy little beaver.

I guess that our Warrior can go to Fish City.

That, or rice, and move the rice archer to fish... I dont see much of a difference either way.

We don't have a boat to send a unit over to Island City, though, so it may have to build its own Archer later (perhaps after Police State is in use?).

I am not sure we want police state as early as you keep suggesting... This needs discussion...

There was talk of trying to send a unit on a Galley... obviously, such a unit might not be able to go anywhere for a while, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared... so... shall we aim to build a Chariot to be completed about 10 turns from now (maybe not in this upcoming turnset if it's going to be a short turnset)?

It would be nice to have a Galley with a chariot on it, and ready to go as soon as Silver-bridge pops. Maybe building it in Prague, for example.


On police state... Clearly we will want it at some point, once we turn on the full millitary machine, but I am not convinced we want it for the mini-build-up which would be requires to take MM out soonish... If it turns out we need anything beyond astronomy (Paratroopers, for example...), then a stint in Representation before police state would be optimum. Hopefully, we know better before the pyramids are done... It may well be that an immediate revolt to police state is best. I am not arguing against this per-say. I am just bringing up that we should NOT immedietly revolt instantly when we get the pyramids, as there is potentially something to be considered here.

Are we agreed on a tech for going forward BTW? It seems to me that is the first decision that is absolutly a must before we can plan to play... I am still in favor of construction, but HBR is a close second choice for me, so if that is the majority vote, I am happy to get behind it. I am not sure I have heard clear votes from the others involved.