SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Dhoomstriker]

I would be okay with building our own Workers. We could definitely use more Workers after having gone for Math, but Worker-stealing will require pairs of Archers and will probably also require us to have 1 or 2 defensive Archers in the Forest/Jungle between our Cities and Mansa's Cities, to lure any of his roaming units to attack those Archers of ours.

So, we could aggressively Chop out/whip some Archers to make it happen... or else we can just build our own Workers.


As for settling, we'll soon have a couple of Archers coming out. I wouldn't mind seeing what's to the north of the Ivory, to see if there IS a Food Resource up there or not, although there's only 1 square left to explore up there.

I also wouldn't mind seeing what's down the peninsula.

I would also like to see if there's a City location near to Mansa that we'd want to steal before he can get there.


Obviously, all of our Archers cannot be in the same place at once.


It would have been nice had Mansa founded one of the early Religions, as then he might have started spreading it to us. There's still hope that he'll found Confucianism, so there's that hope which could allow us to stick with playing peacefully for now.

 

[Jastrow]

On chopping... Note that my results in the math test were done with not chopping (except for what we already did chop) until math came in. The 50% boost on the forrest is very much worth waiting a bit (because we can get of one round of whip builds first, as needed.)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we don't plan to go to war on Mansa early on, perhaps we should consider Chopping the Forests that are just outside of his City #2's Cultural Borders.

If he founds Confucianism or builds a Monument, we won't get much time to Chop them.

We probably don't have enough Worker turns to make this idea work, but it's a thought, and one that might go hand-in-hand with Worker-stealing (due to having more Workers available for Chopping and due to Mansa then building Skirmishers instead of a Monument).


If we do declare war on him, is he more likely to prioritize Iron Working? Then again, maybe we'd prefer it if he first got Confucianism?


I suppose that we can still count on the Scout to explore around the "settle in place" area and the peninsula, so perhaps the Archer near City 2's location can head to the area south of Mansa's area, while our newly-built Archer can head to the north of Mansa's area? If we were to find, say, a Gold Resource, that would meet our desire to settle by a Happiness Resource and might allow for us to scoop up a good City location peacefully.

Then again, with Mansa having a large-sized capital, he might be able to pump out Settlers faster than we will... it's hard to say, as we COULD whip Settler 3 before Worker 2 if grabbing some land is the benefit of doing so.

 

[Jastrow]

Another thing that might be worth working in is and exploring WB fairly early (I dont remember about the real game, but in the test game, there was a clam available to use for something like city 6, it can be used there when needed.) What I am thinking is that if there happens to be like a 1-tile island in the middle of the lake/sea to our south, then we could plant a city on it and double the value of all our early trade routes (well, 1 per city, to be be accurate)...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a land-based unit should be able to spot any such island, right? Well, we'd at least know that there is another piece of land... but we might not immediately know if it is an island or not.

In other words, we might wait to complete a Work Boat or Galley until after a land-based unit reveals a potential other landmass.


Given that we're in the north-east of the map and yet there is still a sea, given that we figured that we were in the south-east based on the existence of the sea, maybe The Great Lighthouse won't be so bad after all, as there might be another sea somewhere else.


I think that I could get on board with the idea of settling on the G Jungle square that will get 4 of the 5 Ivory Resources, Fresh Water, and the Gem Resource. The Gem Resource looks like it "belongs" with a Horse City, but there's no harm in getting it inside of our Cultural Borders as soon as we can, even if we don't immediately have Iron Working. The only thing that might sway me otherwise would be extra Food up in the north-east. We would get 1 fast Forest Chop (for an early 1-pop-whip Granary) and we'd have one G Ivory For to work without a Cultural Border expansion, plus two G Ivory squares, so it could be a decent spot and would be a strong spot (relative to where other teams might settle) if it turns out that there is no Food Resource.

There will also be the option of getting the wet G Banana within our fat cross, plus 4 Ivory Resources, and up to 4 Chopable Forests (if we give up on Fresh Water access), which WOULD be closer to our capital.

 

[chopster]

Thanks for stepping up Dhoom, RL still quite hectic for this week, but I should have time to comment during the week and be more productive on the weekend.

If we're semi isolated, given that it's Mansa, should we consider walling him off and then back filling?

 

[Jastrow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a land-based unit should be able to spot any such island, right? Well, we'd at least know that there is another piece of land... but we might not immediately know if it is an island or not.

Depends on how far off it is, tho I now realize that if it is 3 tiles away, then we will need astro anyway, so the workboat idea will not work... Oops! Forget that idea.

Given that we're in the north-east of the map and yet there is still a sea, given that we figured that we were in the south-east based on the existence of the sea, maybe The Great Lighthouse won't be so bad after all, as there might be another sea somewhere else.

There *might* be one, but it is a fairly big investment... I do not object to making a pass at it if we can fit it in, but would not want to make very large sacrifices to try for it.

I think that I could get on board with the idea of settling on the G Jungle square that will get 4 of the 5 Ivory Resources, Fresh Water, and the Gem Resource. The Gem Resource looks like it "belongs" with a Horse City, but there's no harm in getting it inside of our Cultural Borders as soon as we can, even if we don't immediately have Iron Working. The only thing that might sway me otherwise would be extra Food up in the north-east. We would get 1 fast Forest Chop (for an early 1-pop-whip Granary) and we'd have one G Ivory For to work without a Cultural Border expansion, plus two G Ivory squares, so it could be a decent spot and would be a strong spot (relative to where other teams might settle) if it turns out that there is no Food Resource.

Plus, as as been said by all of us, with Math first, getting at least one luxury resouce quickly is important, and settling city 3 ON an elephant helps doing that.

There will also be the option of getting the wet G Banana within our fat cross, plus 4 Ivory Resources, and up to 4 Chopable Forests (if we give up on Fresh Water access), which WOULD be closer to our capital.

Yep, closer to the capital is a plus... I could go either way, but probably would be swayed by the simple criterion... Which one gets us a Happy elephant quicker? On the elephant saves making the camp, but might require an extra road, or not?? I dont have the exact lay of the land, but I suspect that will be a main criterion. Of course, this is a decision which we can make once Settler 3 is at least half built.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we go with the assumption that City #3 should be an Ivory City...

And we say that the next time that we reach Size 4 in Aachen we build a Worker (who can possibly start Roading in that direction, or else can Chop out another Worker) and then the following time that we reach Size 4 in Aachen we'll build Settler 3...

We can play out a test game roughly to see when we'd get Ivory connected relative to how soon we'd want that +1 Happiness, then use that information to decide just how soon we need the Ivory to be connected.

So, that leaves us with two main things to test:
- The timing of when we will want Ivory City
- Whether to improve Cow -> Chop -> Pig or Pig -> Chop -> Cow at City 2

If we can get in some testing to figure those things out, then it shouldn't be too hard for someone to put together a PPP for a short period of time (it doesn't have to be all the way until the completion of Settler 3), just to keep the game moving forward.


Obviously, if we don't need the Ivory to be connected for a long time, we can then seriously consider "blocking off land" near Mansa using Settler 3.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

As for the Work Boat idea... a Work Boat or a Galley WILL help if there IS an island, in terms of confirming that a suspected island is actually an island and not just "the other side" of the same landmass.

But, a land-based unit will let us know if there is even such a piece of land which could be reached by a Work Boat or Galley... if no such piece of land is visible by a land-based unit, then a pre-Astronomy island that will be reachable by us will not exist...

That said, a land-based unit might take a long time to explore along the southern edge of said sea... basically, it will depend upon just how far south our Scout will be able to travel and just how vast this sea actually is.

So, we can keep the idea of a Work Boat at the back of our minds if our Scout (or an Archer explorer) makes us feel that a Work Boat would be useful.

 

[chopster]

I might be able to have a bit of a play tonight with the test game to see what I can determine with ivory city timing if that was to be our next target.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Another thought might be to do something like:
Pasture the Pig -> Pasture the Cow -> Build a Settler before a Granary out of City 2 using this excess Food -> do some combination of Chopping and whipping of first a Settler and then a Granary.

The problem I was finding was that we were growing too fast when purely building the Granary but weren't getting enough Hammers in time to whip the Granary at an efficient time. Slotting in a Settler would let us still improve the G Riv Pig first, which gives us a Warrior to explore within Mansa's Cultural Borders and an Archer to explore to the south of them, as no one would need to feel like they might want to stick around to guard the Pig.

Also, it might allow us to quickly block off more land to the south (or north) of Mansa with that fast Settler, while still using the capital some time to build a Settler for our Happiness Resource via the Ivory.

 

[chopster]

Yeah I've tried a couple of games where you get to four cities quite fast with only like 2 workers, and without improvements the cities just cost money, so I'm not that keen on rushing to four cities if we can't improve them relatively quickly.

Will let you know how I go with some testing when I get a chance.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I have finally found a bit of time to do some testing, but I haven't exactly narrowed down an ideal path yet, as doing so is proving to be time-consuming.


That said, I've had a few thoughts:
1. You can save 3 turns (and have less worries about guarding the Settler en route) if you use a Galley to ship the Settler over to the peninsula. Well, that's 3 turns if we settle on top of the Rice, which looks fine now but may not be where we end up deciding to settle.

We're still waiting on someone to do the Ivory-City testing before knowing how soon we will want that Happiness Resource, but there are 3 turns to play with if we want to whip a Galley as well as a Settler when it is time to send a Settler to settle at the peninsula location.

Of course, if there are no islands and if the two "seas" are not connected, that would suck, but even if the two seas were connected, we could then at least use the Galley to guard our Crab... maybe not the best use of early Hammers unless we find that saving those 3 turns of travelling time help to make up for the expense of the Galley.


2. Monte's (Mansa's) second City might be Culture-flippable, especially since Mansa sucked at founded Religions (he didn't found any).

For a delay of 1 turn to found the City and a delay of 1 turn Pasturing the G Riv Pig, we can still have our City 2 adjacent to the Pig + Cow but can get it within Culture-flipping range of Mansa's City (3 squares south of where the Cultural Graph shows that it is located).

With us getting a Library anyway, even if Mansa does make an early Monument (which we probably will do, so we may want to "beat him to the Chop" for any shared Forest Chops), we should be able to put Cultural pressure on his City. Even if we don't Culture flip his City, we could make it easier to attack his City in the future.


3. If we're going to try to steal Workers, now is the time to do it, since Mansa just founded his second City. The best time to catch Workers is when they are Roading between the first City and the second City. So, if we're serious about Worker stealing, we probably need to do something like:
i. Improve the G Riv Pig with our Worker first, even if doing so isn't the ideal approach for this City, as we don't want a Military Unit to guard the Jungle (doing so also lets us play forward without needing testing at the moment, which is why we seem to be stalled--no one has time or interest in doing proper testing and even though I have started, there are so many possibilities that it gets annoying to track them all and compare them all)
AND
ii. Send both the Warrior and Archer in search of Workers... probably scout around all Cultural Borders of Mansa's City #2 (the Warrior is probably better heading straight to Mansa's City to avoid Barbs while the Archer can go "around" Mansa's second City in a slightly different direction)
AND
iii. Commit our capital's Archer (due to be completed in 1 turn) to guard OUR City 2... we'll want the full Fortification Defensive bonus, if possible, although an AI is very unlikely to attack a City guarded by an Archer with 1 lone attacking unit, even if that attacking unit is a Skirmisher. Mostly, we just need a unit parked in our City to deter Mansa from making an opportunistic attack on our City 2 before we can negotiate a Cease Fire
AND
iv. By stealing Workers, we will be slowing Mansa down, so there will be a lot less reason to aggressively expand next to him


4. If, on the other hand, we decide that we probably don't want to steal Workers, we probably want to focus on getting out a fast Settler from City 2 and using at least our Archer and possibly also our Warrior to scout for a possible City location and to guard our Settler. We might even build this Settler before we have a Worker... well, we can just use our original Worker... so that we can get this City settled before Mansa expands again.


I could sit down and figure out the ideal approach for maximizing Food + Hammers in City 2, but if we go with a decision that doesn't support the ideal approach, then I'd rather invest less time in testing and more time in moving the game forward.

For example, it might make sense to do something like Pasture G Cow -> Chop the Forest that is shared with Mansa's big fat cross -> Pasture the G Riv Pig, but doing so might be dangerous if we want to Worker steal, as then we might get a Jungle growing on the Pig and we might get our own Worker stolen.

 

[Jastrow]

1- I am pretty convinced the galley will be usefull eventually... In my test, walking the settler to the rice took for ever, and I later needed to get a worker there as well. Plus, if it can explore a bit the coast... Maybe it will find another AI, seperated from us by a mountain, for example, or on a nearby continent, but isolated... Overall, I like an early galley if we can make it work with production.

2- This is a very minor consideration... We will eventually take the city by force. Until then, since he will trade with us, him owning the city is not bad for us... We should settler whatever we think is the best position, without putting any significant weight into the culture flip possibility. If all other things are equal, and this is a "free" bonus, then of course, we can take it.

3- I dont like this worker stealing plan... If we do not get one, we have investd alot, and if we do get one, a skirmisher could make it to our cities and a lucky attack would whip one out...

What are we considering at city two instead of pasturing the pig first? I cannot really imagine anything else is better?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What are we considering at city two instead of pasturing the pig first? I cannot really imagine anything else is better?

Pre-Granary, the Food has less value. If you Pasture the Pig first, before the City can get 30 Hammers (to make a Granary a 1-pop-whip), we have already grown to a point where after whipping, you will have an empty Granary. Ideally, you want to whip when you have a half-full food box* so that after you grow, you'll have a full Granary ("full" being half of the previous level's maximum food rounded down).

* Sometimes less than half-full if you have a fast-growing Food Resource to work like a G Pig.

We can't get 30 Hammers into the Granary until after we're about to grow to Size 3, which, as I said, leaves our Granary starting empty.

Part of the problem is because the only Hammers that we are making come from the City Centre plus a Forest Chop... we can either wait until Math comes in for a 30-Hammer Forest Chop or we can improve a square like the G Cow that also earns us some Hammers.

If we wait to Chop a 30-Hammer Forest Chop, we'll have even further delayed when we got the Granary, such that the "gained" Hammers are roughly the same amount of Food lost by not having the Granary sooner.


One option is to start on a Settler from Turn 0 of founding the City and get the Granary later, after Chops become Math-enhanced.

Another option is to improve the G Riv Pig, grow to Size 2 while building a Granary, then build a Settler at Size 2 while we wait for Chops to become Math-enhanced.

Improving the Cow first could also be another option.


Probably the easiest thing to do would be to just improve the Pig first and push the game forward a few turns' time.


What I also like about settling a City for Culture-flipping potential is that we free up a Coastal City location that is 1S of the "Banana Split" location, which is good for a few reasons:
1. It gets placed on a Jungle instead of wasting a Forest like the "Banana Split" location would
2. It gives us a second City that can work Riverside Cottages. Given that we won't have one massive-sized City that can work a ton of Resource squares and a lot of Cottages, since we didn't go for Monarchy, it would really nice to have a second Riverside City to Cottage. Having seen ZERO Rivers in the north-east and just a Jungle-heavy River on the peninsula, it will be nice to have TWO Cities share the River to the south-west of our capital
3. Doing so has this other Riverside City being close to our capital (so that we can just have two Cottage Cities in place of having several non-Riverside Cottage Cities)
4. Settling City 2 a bit more westward will spawn-bust more of the surrounding land
5. As I said, it will only take us +1 turn to get the Trade Routes connected, as the Worker can build a Road on the G Riv Pig for 1 turn while the Settler is moving and then on the following turn just before the Settler settles the City, to make for an instant Trade-Route connection
6. It opens up one more square that can receive a Riverside Cottage.


I could go either way at this point (settling City 2 where we initially planned or 1NW of there where we'd put some Cultural pressure on Mansa). Without early Hereditary Rule, we don't need a lot of Healthiness and the default amount that we start with plus that from a couple of Health Resources is more than enough given our Happiness caps to not worry about missing the Health from the River.

I like the idea of "messing with the AIs" and putting Cultural pressure on an AI's City is one such way of messing up an AI... and also makes it a whole lot easier to steal an AI's Workers in the future.


We don't need to know exactly when we'll need Ivory City just yet, so we could play forward, but the big decision to make "right now" would be whether to make room for 2 decent Riverside Cottage Cities or to just have one and hope that we'll have 4+ nearby Happiness Resources to make for the same kind of "super City" that we had with Hereditary Rule. I'm not holding out hope for seeing 4+ Happiness Resources nearby.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, since no one has picked up the ball, I guess that I'm still the Active Player, or at least will act as though I am until someone else steps up to play.

Pre-Play Plan
1. Worker Roads the G Riv Pig -> Pastures the G Riv Pig -> Pastures the G Cow -> Chops the Forest 1N of the G Cow (just in time for Math to arrive--I think that we'll Chop it 1 turn after we learn Math) before Monte (and hopefully, Mansa, too) can get a Monument whipped to potentially temporarily steal it away from us before we get our Library up
2. Settler settles 1W of the G Cow and 1N of the G Riv Pig for the reasons listed in my last message
3. Warrior heads in a northern direction to scout out Mansa's City #2 and to see if he can figure out in which direction Mansa's capital lies
4. Archer heads in a west then north-west direction, semi in search of Mansa's capital and semi in search of another good City location to block him with our next City in the area
5. The Scout will heal then head toward the "settle in place" area, using Forests for cover as much as possible. If we can go quite far south past the "settle in place" area, we'll go as far as about 5 squares south, then will double-back to check out the peninsula area
6. The Archer that we'll build from the capital next can head toward City 2. This way, we will keep open the option of Worker stealing and also can feel pretty safe from the Barbs, while City 2 can stay busy with building itself a Granary and another Settler
7. Research will stay on Math. If we get any further than that, we'll set research to Currency. Binary Research will be used
8. Once Aachen hits Size 4, it will whip Worker 2; once it reaches Size 2 the next time, we'll whip a Settler
9. Worker 2 can start Roading toward the Ivory area and will be guarded by the next Archer that comes out after the Worker gets completed (which arrives in time to guard the Worker before the Worker will leave our Cultural Borders)
10. Aachen can build Archer (for City 2) -> partial Archer -> Worker -> complete the Archer (temporary Military Police unit and then Worker guardian) -> Archer (temporarily Military Police unit until the Settler is whipped, then he will act as the Worker guardian and the Worker guardian can act as the Settler guardian) -> whipped Settler -> Galley/Military Police unit
11. City 2 will start to build a Granary, grow to Size 2, then build a Settler until we get a Forest Chop, at which point we'll be able to whip the Granary -> regrow to Size 2 by building a partial Library (or a partial Archer if the Barbs are getting dangerous) -> complete the Settler -> Library/Archer


Chances are that we won't get very far before we have to stop play in order to make a decision, such as what to do about a Barb unit, what to do about the next AI that we meet, where to settle our Settler that will get built from City 2 (block Mansa? on the peninsula? by the Horse? a second Cottage City?), etc.


It would also be nice to have a targeted goal for the location of Ivory City, so that I can plan the Worker-Roading accordingly.

Right now, I'm seriously considering the location that is 2N of the wet G Banana. That way, we'll get 4 Ivory Resources, Fresh Water access, a GH square, the wet G Banana itself, and the suspected Iron location on the Plains square by the "settle in place" area. That City would make for a great Heroic Epic City.

It also leaves room on the Coast for a Banana + Crab + Lake "Oasis" City, without us needing to cram in too many Coastal Cities like I was doing with my Monarchy-first test.

Settling 2E of the G Gems Jungle square sucks as it doesn't have a Food Resource (that's why we invested the Scout's time to check by the Bear), so it will grow too slowly to be a productive City. We certainly won't have enough Food to work several Ivory squares at the same time as working the Gems square for quite a long time.

As it is, we'll first have to build a Monument to get access to the wet G Banana, but we'll have two Ivory Resources available to be Camped to help us in getting enough Hammers to do so. The early 4-Food wet G Banana Farm which will later become a 5-Food G Banana Plantation will make a big difference in terms of being able to work enough of the Ivory Resources within a reasonable timeframe.


I didn't receive one comment on all of the Demographic data, so I won't be tracking it anymore. If I see something exceptional, I'll make note of it, but the data is already starting to get harder and harder to interpret to the point that I'd rather spend more time looking at the City screens and looking at the map itself.

 

[chopster]

sorry guys real life has been kicking my behind lately, and I have some travel during the next 2 weeks, so I will be in and out of contact.

Will still try to stay up to date and provide feedback but game time is likely to be very limited.

 

[Mitchum]

I just got back from a camping trip. Since I got back from my over-seas trip, I've been quite swamped as well. Thanks for picking up the slack, Dhoom.

No picture, so give me a second to have a quick look...

OK. I'm fine with the plan as proposed. Sorry that I don't have more time to test. I'm assuming that you've tested this new location 1W of the cow and assumed the jungle that we can see for sure plus more jungle to the west of that in the BFC and we're not in any health issues without fresh water, right? Settling on the jungle also removes the chance of jungle growth on the cows (if that's even possible) while we're pasturing the pigs.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for picking up the slack, Dhoom.

How long should I wait?

In 30 mins it will have been 24 hours since the PPP was posted. While I wouldn't want to push the game forward if there were contentious issues, I think that the PPP addresses any concerns that have been raised about the upcoming turnset.

I will have time to play in about 30 mins' time but after that it might be a couple of days before I'll have time again.

Mostly I just want to push the game forward to a point where we're seriously needing some testing or a decision to be made... I don't think that any of the current testing or decisions are important enough to hold up playing and the lack of participation in the thread seems to send this message, as well.

I'm assuming that you've tested this new location 1W of the cow and assumed the jungle that we can see for sure plus more jungle to the west of that in the BFC and we're not in any health issues without fresh water, right?

Yes, we can comfortably get to Size 3 easily enough even with Jungle on all of hidden squares (that's counting having the Pig connected). After that, if we want to keep growing, we'll just slowly have to start hooking up our Health Resources (Rice = +2, Cow = +1, etc), which shouldn't be too hard to do.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, no further response from anyone so I'll wait until another day to play. But, if no further responses come in by the time that I'm ready to play on Monday or Tuesday evening, I'll be proceeding with play then.