SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I can't check the game now, so I can't weigh in decisively about the new proposed Prague location.
2N of the wet grass banana is the site I had been envisaging for Ivory city also Dhoom based on you suggesting it earlier, and is the location I would have tested when I had time (which I thought would be before now).
2N of the wet grass banana is the site I had been envisaging for Ivory city also Dhoom based on you suggesting it earlier, and is the location I would have tested when I had time (which I thought would be before now).
Dhoomstriker
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T22, 1120 BC
The Scout Skips his turn to heal
T23, 1080 BC
Aachen builds an Archer that heads toward the City 2 area
T24, 1040 BC
We complete the Road and then settle City 2
Mansa has Copper by his second City but he hasn't improved it yet
We spot a Panther to the west of City 2 but it is out of reach of our units
Aachen has grown to Size 4 and starts to build a Worker--I will build it for 2 turns' time and then whip it, in order to get an extra Archer out sooner, which will help with Military Police issues as we regrow to completing the next Settler out of our capital
Our Scout is fully-healed and heads southward using the cover of Forests to help him on his way
Timbuktu is still Size 5
T25, 1000 BC
We start to improve City 2's Pig
Mansa sends a Skirmisher out from his City 2 toward the south-east
T26, 975 BC
We 2-pop-whip the Worker in our capital and manually switch from working the Rice to the GH Banana Mine
Our Scout has gone as far south as he can by our "settle in place area":
The Scout Skips his turn to heal
T23, 1080 BC
Aachen builds an Archer that heads toward the City 2 area
T24, 1040 BC
We complete the Road and then settle City 2
Mansa has Copper by his second City but he hasn't improved it yet
We spot a Panther to the west of City 2 but it is out of reach of our units
Aachen has grown to Size 4 and starts to build a Worker--I will build it for 2 turns' time and then whip it, in order to get an extra Archer out sooner, which will help with Military Police issues as we regrow to completing the next Settler out of our capital
Our Scout is fully-healed and heads southward using the cover of Forests to help him on his way
Timbuktu is still Size 5
T25, 1000 BC
We start to improve City 2's Pig
Mansa sends a Skirmisher out from his City 2 toward the south-east
T26, 975 BC
We 2-pop-whip the Worker in our capital and manually switch from working the Rice to the GH Banana Mine
Our Scout has gone as far south as he can by our "settle in place area":
Spoiler :
Dhoomstriker
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The AIs are kicking our butts in terms of GNP, but then again, at least 5 of that for 3 AIs is from a Religion's Holy City's Culture. Still, Commerce does seem like it really will be an issue for us in the short term.
T27, 950 BC
Mansa's Skirmisher is NW + NW of our capital
Our Archer arrives inside of City 2
Our Scout makes his way toward the peninsula via the Forests
Timbuktu has reached Size 6! Other Cities in the world have the same Sizes as before...
5
4
6 Timbuktu
3
3
T28, 925 BC
I almost crapped my pants because I saw what I thought was a Panther coming at our Warrior. Instead, it is two Workers.
We complete the Pig Pasture at City 2.
I had expected to find Mansa's capital to the west of his City 2, so I was surprised when the Archer didn't reveal any Cultural Borders that way. I am still not sure where his capital is located, but his Workers have the "angle" of having walked from the north-west, so that's where I have to assume it is located.
Here's a screenshot of our capital area.
Note Mansa's Skirmisher is lurking nearby, but I doubt that he'll attack our City with a lone unit when we have an Archer defender. Likely, his unit is AI_ATTACK, which means that it isn't going to rush to attack our City by itself, nor will it likely rush in and try to pillage all of our Resources. I'm not sure what the AI mission type for pillaging is called, but I'm pretty sure that an AI has to "obtain" that mission while its unit is within the AI's Cultural Borders.
So, we should be safe from that Skirmisher as long as make sure that it doesn't come after one of our Workers.
Here's a view of the area to the north of Mansa's City 2:
We could theoretically declare war on Mansa now, but I don't know if there is a guardian unit nearby for his Workers. I think that an AI unit has to "randomly wander" onto the same square as the Workers in order to act as their defender, but given that they are in the midst of building a Road, it's possible that a Skirmisher is right behind them...
Then again, I think that the Workers will only "get away" from a guardian if they move 2 squares away, which probably isn't likely to have happened if the Workers are in Road-building mode, as the Workers would most likely be moving 1-square-per turn and thus the Skirmisher would have "kept up" with the Workers.
That said, there is a remote chance that the Workers had built the piece of Road that likely* exists to the north-west earlier and just finished a "far move" that "lost" their Skirmisher escort but left their escort nearby.
* Otherwise, how do you get into Road-building mode with zero movement points on a square? For that to happen, you need to have started on another square where you built a Road or else which already had a Road.
If we do declare war, I might have to "make do" with just 1 Archer to guard both our Worker and Settler that will be going toward the Ivory City area, while we leave 1 Archer parked inside of our capital.
Anyway, I'll upload the game now since I'm exhausted and it will probably be too late for me to keep playing before I can get much feedback.
My current inclination is to try and Worker-steal now, but there are minor risks involved.
T27, 950 BC
Mansa's Skirmisher is NW + NW of our capital
Our Archer arrives inside of City 2
Our Scout makes his way toward the peninsula via the Forests
Timbuktu has reached Size 6! Other Cities in the world have the same Sizes as before...
5
4
6 Timbuktu
3
3
T28, 925 BC
I almost crapped my pants because I saw what I thought was a Panther coming at our Warrior. Instead, it is two Workers.
We complete the Pig Pasture at City 2.
I had expected to find Mansa's capital to the west of his City 2, so I was surprised when the Archer didn't reveal any Cultural Borders that way. I am still not sure where his capital is located, but his Workers have the "angle" of having walked from the north-west, so that's where I have to assume it is located.
Here's a screenshot of our capital area.
Spoiler :
Note Mansa's Skirmisher is lurking nearby, but I doubt that he'll attack our City with a lone unit when we have an Archer defender. Likely, his unit is AI_ATTACK, which means that it isn't going to rush to attack our City by itself, nor will it likely rush in and try to pillage all of our Resources. I'm not sure what the AI mission type for pillaging is called, but I'm pretty sure that an AI has to "obtain" that mission while its unit is within the AI's Cultural Borders.
So, we should be safe from that Skirmisher as long as make sure that it doesn't come after one of our Workers.
Here's a view of the area to the north of Mansa's City 2:
Spoiler :
We could theoretically declare war on Mansa now, but I don't know if there is a guardian unit nearby for his Workers. I think that an AI unit has to "randomly wander" onto the same square as the Workers in order to act as their defender, but given that they are in the midst of building a Road, it's possible that a Skirmisher is right behind them...
Then again, I think that the Workers will only "get away" from a guardian if they move 2 squares away, which probably isn't likely to have happened if the Workers are in Road-building mode, as the Workers would most likely be moving 1-square-per turn and thus the Skirmisher would have "kept up" with the Workers.
That said, there is a remote chance that the Workers had built the piece of Road that likely* exists to the north-west earlier and just finished a "far move" that "lost" their Skirmisher escort but left their escort nearby.
* Otherwise, how do you get into Road-building mode with zero movement points on a square? For that to happen, you need to have started on another square where you built a Road or else which already had a Road.
If we do declare war, I might have to "make do" with just 1 Archer to guard both our Worker and Settler that will be going toward the Ivory City area, while we leave 1 Archer parked inside of our capital.
Anyway, I'll upload the game now since I'm exhausted and it will probably be too late for me to keep playing before I can get much feedback.
My current inclination is to try and Worker-steal now, but there are minor risks involved.
Dhoomstriker
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As far as the game log goes, it was a pretty uneventful mini-turnset:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1120 BC to 925 BC:
Link to the REAL saved game (paused).
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1120 BC to 925 BC:
Spoiler :
Link to the REAL saved game (paused).
-I dont know about you guys, but to me, that looks like a 4 tile island to the SE.... I think we should put settler 3 or 4 on a galley, and settle it for the extra coin trade routes. We can have it share the clam with the double-banana site near the starting location if there is nothing else there. It is worth it just for the trade commerce.
-On attacking the workers... I will try to have a look at the save this evening, but I am not really familiar with the AI worker protecting code, so I cannot really follow this logic. What I am MORE intetersted than that however is, IF we declare ware now:
1-How soon will MM take to us?
2-What will it take to get peace from him?
3-When will he be willing to again trade us something?
By the way... My off-the-cuff/from-the-gut reaction is that a double-worker-steal is too good to pass up, and that we should go for it, but we should obviously weigh this decision carefully.
-On attacking the workers... I will try to have a look at the save this evening, but I am not really familiar with the AI worker protecting code, so I cannot really follow this logic. What I am MORE intetersted than that however is, IF we declare ware now:
1-How soon will MM take to us?
2-What will it take to get peace from him?
3-When will he be willing to again trade us something?
By the way... My off-the-cuff/from-the-gut reaction is that a double-worker-steal is too good to pass up, and that we should go for it, but we should obviously weigh this decision carefully.
Dhoomstriker
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The more relative war success we get against him, the sooner it will be.
Enough relative war success (more in our favour than he has against us). I think that two victories with no losses will qualify. I don't think that you get "full credit" for capturing multiple Workers on the same square... you only earn 1 victory... but I think that you still get a minor "credit" for each extra Worker captured on the same square. So, worst case, 2 Workers + winning 1 battle + losing 0 battles, but we might not even need to win a battle with 2 Workers involved.
Of course, the risk is that a Skirmisher will kill the Warrior plus 2 Workers, giving Mansa plenty of war success against us. Then again, he might not randomly roll enough "attack courage" to go after a Warrior on a GH Jungle square even if there is a Skirmisher nearby.
EDIT: Mansa has a base "attack courage" value of 0 and a random value rolled out of 8. Compare that to Monte, Alex, Gilgamesh, Shaka, etc, who have a base value of 4 and a random value rolled out of 8, and where the Barbs have a base value of 0 and a random value rolled out of 16.
As for Opening Borders, it's still a mystery to me, but I suspect that relative Power plays a role.
As for tech-trading, as soon as we make Peace/take a Cease Fire and someone learns Alphabet. It's only Open Borders where an AI will refuse you for a reason other than Attitude; for tech-trading, you just need to meet the right Attitude threshold (Annoyed or better for Mansa and he has been fluctuating between Cautious and Pleased; therefore, immediately upon someone learning Alphabet) and not be the AI's Worst Enemy.
If we were to declare war twice, we'd probably become Mansa's Worst Enemy, unless he has met another AI whom he hates more. But, one war declaration won't hurt us for tech trading, especially not if we play nicely with him otherwise (gifting him Resources and Opening Borders with him later), which could allow us to get away with two war declarations and still maintain a tech-trading relationship.
Dhoomstriker
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I'm toying with the idea of whipping either a Monument (which will double in Culture quite quickly) or an Archer (for added defence/offence against Mansa) in City 2 as soon as we grow to Size 2. That way, we can start to put our Whipping Unhappiness "Resource" to use in that City and can do so before the Cow gets Pastured.
If we don't do that, we stagnate at Size 2 for quite a while while waiting for Math to come in... it's not terrible to be building a Settler in this way, but it's not really efficient, either (using Food to convert to Hammers gives us a 1:1 ratio into a Settler, while using Food for post-Granary whipping gives us closer to a 1:2.5 ratio into a Settler), and until we get a Forest Chop into the Granary, the Granary can't be whipped.
Chopping as our next action (pre-Math, now that the Pig has been Pastured) doesn't work, either, as then we're still short on Hammers to make the Granary a 1-pop-whip.
I'll test the idea before playing, but it seems like we'd just be better off whipping a 1-pop-whip build item (Monument or Archer) and then regrowing, rather than stagnating and inefficiently building a Settler.
It might even make sense to hold off on whipping the Archer/Monument until we're about to grow to Size 3, but then you have to consider that we wouldn't be allowing the Whipping Unhappiness as much time to "cool down."
Anyway, I'll play around with things and will do what makes the most sense at the time.
If we don't do that, we stagnate at Size 2 for quite a while while waiting for Math to come in... it's not terrible to be building a Settler in this way, but it's not really efficient, either (using Food to convert to Hammers gives us a 1:1 ratio into a Settler, while using Food for post-Granary whipping gives us closer to a 1:2.5 ratio into a Settler), and until we get a Forest Chop into the Granary, the Granary can't be whipped.
Chopping as our next action (pre-Math, now that the Pig has been Pastured) doesn't work, either, as then we're still short on Hammers to make the Granary a 1-pop-whip.
I'll test the idea before playing, but it seems like we'd just be better off whipping a 1-pop-whip build item (Monument or Archer) and then regrowing, rather than stagnating and inefficiently building a Settler.
It might even make sense to hold off on whipping the Archer/Monument until we're about to grow to Size 3, but then you have to consider that we wouldn't be allowing the Whipping Unhappiness as much time to "cool down."
Anyway, I'll play around with things and will do what makes the most sense at the time.
Dhoomstriker
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Here's an updated test game.
Dhoomstriker
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2 votes for Worker stealing, none against, let's go for it.
Stealing Monte's Workers leaves us hurting a bit in terms of Unit Costs, but being able to get more improvements faster, without significantly delaying Math (maybe a 1 turn of delay) seems worth it to me.
Monte just choked us with his Skirmisher, so we can hope that Mansa will lamely do the same thing.
It does look like, ideally, we'd grow to Size 3 and THEN whip in a City that has both a Pig and a Cow to work. But, in this case, if it seems safe enough to whip a Monument, I think that I'll whip that first, just to get some early Culture out. Winning some of the land near Mansa will not only give us map intelligence but will also make it easier for our stolen Workers to cross safely toward our capital without worrying about animals jumping out at our Workers.
For future whipping, we can keep that fact in mind (that it's one of the rare cases where it makes sense to whip AFTER you grow, i.e. when you would otherwise be whipping away a Cow Pasture, assuming that you don't need the whipped build item 1 turn sooner).
Stealing Monte's Workers leaves us hurting a bit in terms of Unit Costs, but being able to get more improvements faster, without significantly delaying Math (maybe a 1 turn of delay) seems worth it to me.
Monte just choked us with his Skirmisher, so we can hope that Mansa will lamely do the same thing.
It does look like, ideally, we'd grow to Size 3 and THEN whip in a City that has both a Pig and a Cow to work. But, in this case, if it seems safe enough to whip a Monument, I think that I'll whip that first, just to get some early Culture out. Winning some of the land near Mansa will not only give us map intelligence but will also make it easier for our stolen Workers to cross safely toward our capital without worrying about animals jumping out at our Workers.
For future whipping, we can keep that fact in mind (that it's one of the rare cases where it makes sense to whip AFTER you grow, i.e. when you would otherwise be whipping away a Cow Pasture, assuming that you don't need the whipped build item 1 turn sooner).
Mitchum
Deity
Worker steal. Yes. But we don't have to do it this turn, right? We can move the archer next to them and then nab them next turn while they are buidling a road... or do we think they are doing something else? If there is a skirmisher that is not on MP duty, he will attack a warrior. 4 strength vs. 2 strength, even on a jungle hill, will give him better than 50% odds to take our warrior and the two workers back. I'd rather wait one turn until our archer can join the fun.
No on the monument. I'm fine whipping an archer, especially if we're planning to steal workers. We could use another unit and a bump in strength.
What was in Djenne when you walked by? Or did you not get close enough to see?
Finally, based on barbs you've seen plus what Mansa has, will it be doable to get the workers back safely? It may be best to split them so as not to lose them both to the same panther... if we steal, of course.
EDIT: x-post with Dhoom.
No on the monument. I'm fine whipping an archer, especially if we're planning to steal workers. We could use another unit and a bump in strength.
What was in Djenne when you walked by? Or did you not get close enough to see?
Finally, based on barbs you've seen plus what Mansa has, will it be doable to get the workers back safely? It may be best to split them so as not to lose them both to the same panther... if we steal, of course.
EDIT: x-post with Dhoom.
Dhoomstriker
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Let's think about it this way: If there is a Skirmisher nearby, next turn, it will be guarding the Workers on a GH Jungle square. On the following turn, it will be guarding the Workers on a Roaded Grassland that is next to a City with 2 Skirms in it... even if we attacked and won, then we'd most certainly have a defending Skirm come out and attack us.
If we were to wait one more turn, in the meantime, Mansa may decide to send out one of the two Skirmishers that he had in City 2 toward his Workers or he might send one out from his capital down the Road. We also don't know if there's a Barb Panther that might eat those Workers. In other words, it's potentially safer to strike right now.
If we wait to use the Archer to capture the Workers, it will be harder to escort them back. If we capture the Workers with the Warrior, it won't be nearly as easy to escort them back... with the Warrior stealing, the Workers (assuming that our Warrior doesn't die to Mansa or a Barb Unit while he's on a GH Jungle square) can move 2 squares and be guarded by the Archer, then can move 2 squares again and be within our Cultural Borders... or, if Mansa has a unit block them, the Archer can walk them the long way around.
Here's what it would give to us:
- 3 more Forests to Chop
- a Marble Resource to Quarry (yes, I was tired last night and didn't even notice it until I was updating the test game tonight, sorry)
- a G Riv Banana for us to Cottage
- no need to use an Archer to escort any of our Workers that want to head eastward toward our capital and then, say, to Ivory City... we can just rely on our Cultural Borders to do the trick
- visibility of Mansa's second City, which could prove to be quite useful
2 Skirms (I just confirmed in a old manually-saved game) plus the Skirm that he sent to the south-east toward our capital.
Dhoomstriker
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The bottom line: If Mansa has a Skirm near his 2 Workers:
i. If we attack now, the worst that will happen is that we'll lose 1 Warrior, be equal in terms of war success (or possibly in the negative, but I think that it will be 1 win + 2 Worker captures on either side), and Mansa will have killed off 2 of his Workers for us, setting him back quite a bit but saving us in Unit Costs (3 less units, heh heh)
OR
ii. If we wait to attack, Mansa will guard his Workers and they will be safe, and that will be the end of that... and he'll have too many Skirms floating around for us to dare Worker stealing with nothing stronger than Archers
If Mansa doesn't have units nearby, now is the right time to attack, to avoid the possibility of the Workers dying to a Panther and to get them home ASAP using the Archer to escort them for 1 square of their journey.
So, either way, logic dictates that now is the time to attack.
i. If we attack now, the worst that will happen is that we'll lose 1 Warrior, be equal in terms of war success (or possibly in the negative, but I think that it will be 1 win + 2 Worker captures on either side), and Mansa will have killed off 2 of his Workers for us, setting him back quite a bit but saving us in Unit Costs (3 less units, heh heh)
OR
ii. If we wait to attack, Mansa will guard his Workers and they will be safe, and that will be the end of that... and he'll have too many Skirms floating around for us to dare Worker stealing with nothing stronger than Archers
If Mansa doesn't have units nearby, now is the right time to attack, to avoid the possibility of the Workers dying to a Panther and to get them home ASAP using the Archer to escort them for 1 square of their journey.
So, either way, logic dictates that now is the time to attack.
Mitchum
Deity
Per Tachy's Slave Economy thread, MP archers will not leave a city to attack, which is why you can't use workers as bait like you could in Vanilla.
I'm fine taking the workers now, but if he has a trailing skirmisher, it will attack regardless of attack courage.
I'm fine taking the workers now, but if he has a trailing skirmisher, it will attack regardless of attack courage.
Dhoomstriker
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The second defender WILL attack if it has good odds and you are ADJACENT to the City... being on a Road seems to increase the chances of such an attack, since the unit can then retreat back into the City after beating you if your unit is the sole unit on that square.
If you walk a Warrior next to an AI's capital while at war, you can't wantonly pillage just because he has 2 Archer defenders... one of those AI_DEFENCE Archers WILL attack you. I imagine that the same will be true for one of our Archers adjacent to a Skirmisher... and even more so if our Archer was wounded by first killing a different Skirmisher.
But, if you have a pair of units, you tend to be safe against 2 Archers in a City... I haven't done enough testing against Skirms to see if the same holds true.
Dhoomstriker
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"Ideal" case of us waiting for the best time to whip a Monument in terms of Food and Hammers, but NOT taking into account much-desired Culture and not taking into account the desire for Whipping Unhappiness to wear off:
Scenario A] Grow to Size 3 ASAP and then whip a Monument
Turn 34, 775 BC:
8 Food at Size 2, 14 Hammers (counting overflow Hammers) in a Granary, 1 Culture, 9 Whipping Unhappiness Turns
Scenario B] Whip a Monument ASAP at Size 2
4 Food at Size 2, 10 Hammers (counting no overflow Hammers) in a Granary, 3 Culture, 6 Whipping Unhappiness
I suppose that it's worth waiting in order to earn +4 Food and +4 Hammers.
Actually, if we wait that long, our extra Workers may have Chopped a Forest into the Granary and we could just whip the Granary first instead, followed by whipping a Monument afterward... more efficient in terms of overall output but less efficient in terms of Worker management (it will take a while longer for our Workers to have useful things to do) and less efficient in terms of Cultural Border expansion... i.e. delaying us getting extra Workers heading east and delaying us seeing what Mansa does at City 2.
I guess that the lure of extra Food and Hammers still draws me to wait and just whip the Granary first.
Scenario A] Grow to Size 3 ASAP and then whip a Monument
Turn 34, 775 BC:
8 Food at Size 2, 14 Hammers (counting overflow Hammers) in a Granary, 1 Culture, 9 Whipping Unhappiness Turns
Scenario B] Whip a Monument ASAP at Size 2
4 Food at Size 2, 10 Hammers (counting no overflow Hammers) in a Granary, 3 Culture, 6 Whipping Unhappiness
I suppose that it's worth waiting in order to earn +4 Food and +4 Hammers.
Actually, if we wait that long, our extra Workers may have Chopped a Forest into the Granary and we could just whip the Granary first instead, followed by whipping a Monument afterward... more efficient in terms of overall output but less efficient in terms of Worker management (it will take a while longer for our Workers to have useful things to do) and less efficient in terms of Cultural Border expansion... i.e. delaying us getting extra Workers heading east and delaying us seeing what Mansa does at City 2.
I guess that the lure of extra Food and Hammers still draws me to wait and just whip the Granary first.
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Turn 28, 925 BC Continued
I move our Archer 1N GH Jungle Rice just to see if we can spot any impending threat. Seeing nothing additional to deter us, I see no reason not to go ahead with the Warrior-does-the-Worker-stealing plan, given that waiting seems to have a bigger risk of things going wrong.
I move our Archer 1N GH Jungle Rice just to see if we can spot any impending threat. Seeing nothing additional to deter us, I see no reason not to go ahead with the Warrior-does-the-Worker-stealing plan, given that waiting seems to have a bigger risk of things going wrong.
Spoiler :
Mitchum
Deity
And...
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, there's no going back now... we've stolen 2 Workers and the area looks reasonably safe, but there could be a Panther or Skirm 2N of the Warrior that could use a Road to still get us.
Things in the south could go any way at this point, but at least our Cities are defended by Archers instead of by Warriors, so I'm not TOO concerned about that wandering Skirmisher.
Things in the south could go any way at this point, but at least our Cities are defended by Archers instead of by Warriors, so I'm not TOO concerned about that wandering Skirmisher.
Spoiler :
Dhoomstriker
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I can't leave you in suspense for long, but that was a heart-rending End Turn Enter keypress, let me tell you. And the verdict is...
Mansa's Skirm is headed for our capital, but we have 2 Archers there, so we should be more than fine.
I'll risk putting the second Archer on the same square as the Worker just to see if Mansa would feel like coming at our City (Monte didn't) with just 1 Archer in it. If he won't, I'll feel safer sending out the second Archer to escort the Worker.
In the worst case, we can always use excess population to whip an emergency Archer which will have more than 0 Hammers invested in it (sorry, no Library or Galley in the capital just yet).
Spoiler :
Mansa's Skirm is headed for our capital, but we have 2 Archers there, so we should be more than fine.
I'll risk putting the second Archer on the same square as the Worker just to see if Mansa would feel like coming at our City (Monte didn't) with just 1 Archer in it. If he won't, I'll feel safer sending out the second Archer to escort the Worker.
In the worst case, we can always use excess population to whip an emergency Archer which will have more than 0 Hammers invested in it (sorry, no Library or Galley in the capital just yet).
