SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Dhoomstriker]

Or he could pillage US back to the Stone Age... If we're fighting battles behind our city walls (or gates since we have no walls), we're doing something wrong.

Not necessarily true in BtS like it was in Vanilla and Warlords. Here, AIs like to choke you and then, when they've gathered a few units together, throw them all at your City.


I'm working on updating the test game, but there's a lot to update, so it's taking a while. Stay tuned.


EDIT: As I was drawing more of the Railroad that we've revealed, I got to thinking... what if there are Humbabas at the end of the rail? Nah, not possible, but it sure would have been funny!

 

[Mitchum]

Not quite. It's 29 + whatever Food and Hammers we make on the turn that we whipped the Settler + whatever Hammers we make from working the City Centre and the GH Banana Mine on the following turn (4 Hammers).

From working the Pig + GH Banana Mine + City Centre, we earn 10 Food - 4 Food for 2 citizens + 4 Hammers, so that's 6 Food + 4 Hammers = 10 Hammers.

It should be pretty trivial to get the Galley on the turn after the Settler is completed.

29 + 10 + 4 = 43. A galley costs 50 hammers IIRC. So, like I said in my post, we'll have to either put hammers into a galley before we whip the settler or else combine a chop on either the turn we 2 pop or the next turn when we're building the galley. Or am I missing something?

If one or the other is available (Mitch: CF or DoP), it means that both are available.

Not true. I've had several cases where a DoP was possible (with me putting a city or a tech on the table) but no CF was available.

By the way, I'm still not a big fan of sinking 30H into a monument in city #2. We'll already get culture expansion from the library and there is no way we're going to win the culture battle against a holy city with an extra 1 (2 in 1000 years). We should be happy just to get and hold the inner ring to the north of our city and we don't need a monument to do that.

This city placement where we get to "screw with the AI" is actually a case where Mansa gets to screw with us. It's unfortunate that he founded CoL there...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Or am I missing something?

We already have 21 Hammers in a Galley. Jastrow was calling for one, I felt that it was a good idea, and no one was opposed to the idea... so, yes, it will be trivial to complete a Galley after the Settler gets whipped. A test game will tell us how many turns we will need to wait before whipping the Settler (perhaps just 2 turns)?

Not true. I've had several cases where a DoP was possible (with me putting a city or a tech on the table) but no CF was available.

Okay, just to be clear: what I meant was that if you can get:
Peace Treaty <-> Peace Treaty
you can equivalently get:
Cease Fire <-> Cease Fire
and vice versa.

By the way, I'm still not a big fan of sinking 30H into a monument in city #2. We'll already get culture expansion from the library and there is no way we're going to win the culture battle against a holy city with an extra 1 (2 in 1000 years). We should be happy just to get and hold the inner ring to the north of our city and we don't need a monument to do that.

I'm thinking longer term here. A Monument will soon be worth 2 Culture, so it's like a cheap +2 Culture.

Given that Mansa has a Monument (I'm almost certain) plus Confucianism, and then he can make a Monastery or a Temple (he's Spiritual so they come cheaply for him), he'll soon have 7 Culture (for the Monument's Culture doubling) plus whatever other Cultural Buildings he builds.

If we want to keep open the possibility of his Missionary-spamming us, we'll need to let him keep the Holy City for a long period of time. For that to happen, we'll need more Culture than just the +4 from the Library to hang on in the long run. +6 from a Library and a Monument and an eventual +1 from Confucianism should give us the freedom to let Mansa hold onto his Confucian Holy City for a long time and will even allow him to eventually get a Shrine for +4 Culture without us caring too much.

This city placement where we get to "screw with the AI" is actually a case where Mansa gets to screw with us. It's unfortunate that he founded CoL there...

Well, it at least made it easier to block him in expansion-wise and fog-busted a bit more for us. In either location, he'd have put Cultural pressure on us, so we can't cry over sour grapes, but we can make the best of it by putting in some investment in keeping our City for the long-term (Library + Monument). We may even want to go Library -> Archer -> Monument -> Archer, just to make sure that we get the doubling effect on the Monument soon enough.

 

[Jastrow]

Commenting on the various points being discussed...

1. I would go Currency directly... A few turns in Alpha now is a waste IF MM does not go for it next... Moreover, until we meet a second AI, getting alpha in a trade is actually semi-useless...(building research does help recover from over-rex, but is not the most efficient thing in the world. With early currency and hopefully an islan city (see 2), I think we will be ok). Math for IW is my primary focus in trades.

2. Settling... I am for on the Peninsula next... I also would like us to prioritize a settler/galley for what looks like an island south of the starting location. It effectively gives us 1 extra gold per city for the entirity of our rex.

3. War... I would end it soon... I am certainly not against another worker steal, but I am not sure overdoing it helps us much either. Firstly, we do have to pay for the workers. Secondly, we do want some tech from MM, so I dont really want to keep him completly backwards.

4.I dont like Barracks anywhere yet. I would prefer granaries and libraries for buildings (and of course settlers and MP). I get the point about the two-move worker steals, but I dont think I really want to be in war long enough to make that pay off.

5.I like having two libraries working on great scientists... Either two bulbs, or Academy+settle, are both great ways to keep the research flowing.

6. A culture battle against a holy city is futile... I do not like the monument at all as the first build. I dont mind one down the line to help protect our tiles, but Library first, is still the way to go, and then probably one or two archers. After that, slidding in a monument could make sense, depending on how much pressure we are feeling.

7.Excellent that we already have hammers in a Galley. I had not realized that, but highly approove!

8. My schedule should free up considerably on the 20th, for at least a 2 or 3 week period, so I could easily see myself taking the set at that time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Random observations while setting up the test game:
Timbuktu can build a Worker (without whipping) in a span of 4 turns with the GH Rice Farms... and probably at most 5 turns without it being Farmed.

I'm not sure what Mansa will have done, but Monte whipped a Monument in City 2 and overflowed it into a Granary.


The test game is about as close as I could get it. The Food, Hammers, Gold, and Flasks are correct, as far as I can tell. I had the Skirm follow our Warrior (okay, Monte did the work for me) from Turn 35 to Turn 38.

I let Monte's Worker do his own thing, since we can't really be sure where he's located in the real game (although we can certainly hope that we know exactly where it is! ).

 

[Mitchum]

1. I would go Currency directly... A few turns in Alpha now is a waste IF MM does not go for it next... Moreover, until we meet a second AI, getting alpha in a trade is actually semi-useless...(building research does help recover from over-rex, but is not the most efficient thing in the world. With early currency and hopefully an islan city (see 2), I think we will be ok). Math for IW is my primary focus in trades.

Agreed.

2. Settling... I am for on the Peninsula next... I also would like us to prioritize a settler/galley for what looks like an island south of the starting location. It effectively gives us 1 extra gold per city for the entirity of our rex.

Sounds good. I'll settle on the rice unless I hear otherwise. The galley can be used to scout the island area after dropping off the worker/settler on the rice. We should also loading an archer or two on the galley (after the worker/settler) so that I can drop them off on the south side of the lake to see what's there.

3. War... I would end it soon... I am certainly not against another worker steal, but I am not sure overdoing it helps us much either. Firstly, we do have to pay for the workers. Secondly, we do want some tech from MM, so I dont really want to keep him completly backwards.

Agreed. My plan is to try this turn to steal one (or two) more worker. If one isn't available this turn, I'd like to CF now. We already have 5 workers and 3 cities, so we're fine for now. A CF now almost guarantees that our warrior/worker will be safe as we should be able to OB with Mansa right away. If we don't CF now, our warrior will almost surely die and we'll be taking a crap shoot getting our worker home with barbs...

Also, it would be awesome to OB with Mansa and build a road to his city so that we can start getting foreign trade routes. This should help our situation quite a bit.

4.I dont like Barracks anywhere yet. I would prefer granaries and libraries for buildings (and of course settlers and MP). I get the point about the two-move worker steals, but I dont think I really want to be in war long enough to make that pay off.

Agreed. I'd rather build a library than a monument in Ivory City for a border pop. So the build order would go granary -> library rather than Dhoom's proposal of granary -> monument -> barracks.

5.I like having two libraries working on great scientists... Either two bulbs, or Academy+settle, are both great ways to keep the research flowing.

Sounds good. I'll work scientists as possible. In Ivory City, it will be tough to run more than one until a border pop and a banana farm.

6. A culture battle against a holy city is futile... I do not like the monument at all as the first build. I dont mind one down the line to help protect our tiles, but Library first, is still the way to go, and then probably one or two archers. After that, slidding in a monument could make sense, depending on how much pressure we are feeling.

OK, so we'll go library (2 pop at size 4) -> archer x2 -> monument as Dhoom originally suggested.

7.Excellent that we already have hammers in a Galley. I had not realized that, but highly approove!

I missed the hammers in the galley as well. That would have explained how trivial it is to get enough OF to complete the galley in 1 turn. I suggested putting hammers into a galley but they are already there...


We're leaving for camping today. Feel free to flesh out the PPP. You can even list detailed actions of you want, but I can work from a high-level plan as well. I'll aim to play on Monday if the PPP is agreeable. If there isn't a PPP developed, I guess I'll spend Monday doing so and plan to play on Tuesday.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We should also loading an archer or two on the galley (after the worker/settler) so that I can drop them off on the south side of the lake to see what's there.

I was thinking that we'd use the Scout to load up on the Galley and check out the landmass to the south of our starting area... island or peninsula? If it's a peninsula or if we spot another island to the south of there, we can consider sending the Scout further southward, as long as the Galley doesn't get too out of position for picking up the next Settler after the peninsula Settler... which, unfortunately, will only matter if there IS an island... and we don't know if there is an island yet.

As for exploring more to the south, first we'll have to find a Coast square... all that I saw were Ocean squares, so there currently IS nowhere to go south, except perhaps south of the landmass that Jastrow hopes is an island.

Basically, you'll need to balance exploration with being able to get the Galley back in time to pick up a Settler if there IS and island, versus hunting for a real island if what we hope to be an island is connected to the mainland, similar to what we see in our test game (the landmass connecting in the south and then connecting to our area in the west).

Agreed. I'd rather build a library than a monument in Ivory City for a border pop. So the build order would go granary -> library rather than Dhoom's proposal of granary -> monument -> barracks.

It would help if we got a Worker over there, so after the two Workers by City 2 finish their current G Riv Cottage, perhaps one can board our soon-to-be-built Galley while the other can make his way over to Ivory City to help with Chopping. The sooner that we expand our Cultural Borders at Ivory City, the sooner that we'll have plenty of more Worker tasks to do (Farming a wet G Banana + improving Ivory Resources + possibly Chopping more Forests).

Although I don't foresee us generating a Great Scientist out of Ivory City, I can see the appeal of running the occasional Scientists to help us limp our way to Currency.

More importantly we'll want a Library in the capital, where we have excess Food... the ability to convert the Palace's Commerce into Flasks is probably going to be a pipe dream, but if we do so for a turn or two on the way to Currency, we'll benefit a little bit. Certainly, until we get a Library in the capital, we won't bother running at higher than 0% Science Rate and even then we might not be able to afford to run higher than a 0% Science Rate.


I know that Jastrow said earlier that he is somewhat against building The Great Lighthouse, but until we learn Iron Working, the Peninsula City will be more of a Hammer City than it will a Specialist-hiring City (firing a citizen that is working a P Copper Railroad Mine and turning him into a Scientist would be a big no-no). So, I would suggest Granary -> Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse there.

If you guys are talking about +1 Commerce from getting a Trade Route with one of Mansa's Cities being a big deal, then getting +2 Commerce in a few Cities plus starting on a possible Great Merchant for later would be a relatively big deal.

Again, no real effort has to be put into this Wonder other than simply not REXing harder (which we probably can't afford to do too aggressively) and not spamming more units. I don't see a Library helping the Fur's Commerce as I don't see us being able to get above a 0% Science Rate pre-Currency, at least not for more than a turn or two, so The Great Lighthouse seems to be a better investment than a Library in Peninsula Rice City.

If we don't CF now, our warrior will almost surely die and we'll be taking a crap shoot getting our worker home with barbs...

I had a chance to do some testing last night (today I'm exhausted, so I'm paying for it). If the Warrior and Worker go NE, Monte's Skirm ignores them. He only seemed to be beelining them because the Warrior was within his Cultural Borders. Note how he chased the Warrior from far away but ignored the closer Archer.

Also, Monte CONSISTENTLY ignored our Workers. Tachy was right--BtS AIs have gone so far against the concept of Worker Baiting that they now pretty much ignore the opportunity for them to steal unguarded Workers when the Workers are not within our Cultural Borders.

If you put a Warrior or a Worker next to the Skirm by our capital, that Warrior or Worker will get attacked.

But, Skirms were walking right past our undefended Workers in between Monte's two Cities. It's like the Workers are invisible to the AIs.

It's actually just the Barbs from whom we need to guard our Workers.


As for the Worker Trap, I'd like to have 1 Worker, 2 Archers, and possibly 1 Warrior stand on one square with two or three Roads leading outward from there. That way, every time that we spring the trap, we can have 2 Archers checking for victims from the same trap, allowing us to send one of our two in-the-field Workers home. The Warrior being there would just allow us to guard the Worker (probably not needed and might even be dangerous if he draws the ire of Monte's/Mansa's units) and to pillage the Road if both Archers capture a Worker on the same turn... which is unlikely... so, we should be good with just getting 2 Archers + 1 Worker there to set up a multi-pronged trap.


I'm going to suggest that we spring the trap from the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G For Silk. We leave the Road on the G Jungle that is 1SW of the G For Silk and then we put another Road on the GH Jungle that is 1E of the G For Silk.

If we pillage the Road on the Grassland 1N of the G For Silk, we'll be able to attack that square, we'll be able to attack the G Rice square 2N of Monte's/Mansa's City 2 (Monte started to build a Worker there, so Mansa might, too), and we'll be able to attack several squares in the nearby area where Monte/Mansa might try to build a Road connection AROUND where our 2 Archers get parked.


Eventually, after about 15 turns' time, Mansa's Cultural Borders will expand, obsoleting our trap area. At that point, we can take a Cease Fire and we can be content that we've mostly hooked-up the Road network between Mansa's Cities, so that we'll quickly get Trade Routes with both of his Cities and will have the chance to trade Resources with Mansa (we'll probably just gift him a Health Resource if we can afford to do so, for the bonus Diplo).


Mansa is Financial and has several Cottages by his capital. By slowing his expansion rate, we're actually speeding up his Research rate, not slowing it down. Meanwhile, we're delaying the amount of Hammers that he could otherwise be dumping into Military Units. We WILL eventually want to take him down and the weaker he is Power-wise and Hammer-wise, with the more techs that he has in trade, the more useful he will be to us.

An AI that has 4 or less Cities is considerably faster to quickly take down than an AI with 6+ Cities, so the more that we can cut him off at the knees Hammer-wise in the short term, the better off our game will be.

 

[Mitchum]

If we're able to unload a unit from our galley on some other landmass or an area to the south, I'd much rather have it be an archer than an archer. Unloading a scout and expecting it to live long enough to fine anything useful with human barbs appearing is a pipe dream. I suggest that we use an archer on the galley for scouting and use the scout as a spawn buster somewhere where there is a lot probablility of him being attacked.

Jastrow and I are both for a CF now. At this point it's 2 vs. 1. Unless someone else weighs in or unless Jastrow or I change our minds, it's looking like a CF. Sure, 100 workers would be awesome, but we can hardly afford the units we have now. So, my proposal is to try this turn to steal one more worker. If not available, CF this turn. You can spend several posts trying to convince us otherwise, but at this point, I'd rather have the CF, OBs, two +2 TRs and safe passage through Mansa's culture of our northern worker and warrior.

We can still set the trap and keep our eyes on it. If an opportunity presents itself to DoW again and steal more workers, we should consider it.

I'm fine with the GLH. It looks like we'll have at least 4 and likely several more coastal citites, so it's benefit will be substantial.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'd rather have the CF, OBs, two +2 TRs and safe passage through Mansa's culture of our northern worker and warrior.

We might not get OBs, +2 TRs, and safe passage through Mansa's Cultural Borders. There is a cool-down time for an AI to want to Reopen Borders and I'm not sure how it works. Does anyone know?

As for safe passage for our Workers... the safest passage would be to remain at war and simply march them right past Mansa's City #2. At least that's what my testing seemed to show. If we were to take a Cease Fire and be unable to get Open Borders, it would take a lot longer and incur a lot more risk for getting our Workers home around the outside of Mansa's Cultural Borders.

I'm not totally opposed to a Cease Fire if that's really what you guys want, but unless someone can pull out some code to prove otherwise, we should not expect to get any of the benefits that you mentioned for a while, until Mansa is ready to Reopen Borders with us, and even then the Trade Route benefit will be a while in coming.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Anyway, I'll try to put together a step-by-step plan for the Workers, Warrior, Archer, and a new Archer in case we decide to extend the Worker stealing until Mansa's Cultural Borders expand a second time in roughly 15 turns' time.

If we go for an immediate Cease Fire, then there's no point in having much of a detailed unit movement plan as the timing of when we get Open Borders with Mansa will dictate heavily when and where our units will be able to move.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

How big does an island have to be for Barb units to spawn on it? For example, if there is an island, will it help to have a Scout spawn-bust it? Or, if it is small enough, we wouldn't need to bother?

I agree that a Scout will not necessarily last long exploring new territory. However, besides such exploration, he also has little other use than spawn-busting. We also don't have a lot of Archers kicking around... they are needed elsewhere... and if we go for an immediate Cease Fire, then I'd argue that we probably don't want to build yet another Archer until a Galley or a dead Scout has proven that there's a need for one.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Advanced Worker Trap
We start off with:
T38 Yellow Warrior + Blue Worker run NE
T39 Yellow Warrior 1S G
T39 Blue Worker can be super daring and go 1S G, 1SW GH Rice and the Skirm there will ignore him, since the AI thinks that we are trying to bait him; silly AI

T38 Purple Worker completes the Road
T38 Red or Orange Archer moves 1N then has two choices:
Orange captures a Worker
Red retreats since there is no Worker to capture

T39 Purple Worker + Red or Orange Archer move to the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For

Spoiler :

T40 Yellow Warrior 1SE G Jungle
T40 Blue Worker moves 1SE G, 1SE GH Jungle

T40 Red Archer moves 1NE GH Jungle to guard the Blue Worker if a Barb unit is visible
Otherwise Orange Archer skips its turn
T40 Purple Worker builds a partial Road

Spoiler :

T41 Blue Worker can spot whether or not there is a Skirm within reach of the Grassland Road square... if there is not, then our Yellow Warrior can move in to Pillage that Road
T41 Blue Worker builds a partial Road on the GH Jungle 1E of the G Silk For

T41 Purple Worker completes the Road on the GH Jungle
T41 Orange Archer explores 1W G Jungle and if he sees a Worker, he captures it as the Red Archer, otherwise he retreats as the Orange Archer

Spoiler :

T42 Yellow Warrior pillages the Road; otherwise, he just heads towards the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For
T42 Blue Worker completes the Road on the GH Jungle 1E of the G Silk For

T42 Orange Archer pillages the potentially-existing Road on the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For; Red Archer starts making his way back there
T42 If the Road was pillaged, Purple Worker partially rebuilds it

Spoiler :

Here's where we start to see the real power of the trap... a Worker can act as a scout and a Road-rebuilder on the same turn if thing are done in the right order
T43 Purple Worker completes the Road on the GH Jungle (if we're behind by a bit due to having had the Red Archer capture a Worker, then we'll eventually get to a point where this situation will happen)
T43 Blue Worker explores along the Roads, ensuring that he will have at least 0.5 movement points remaining when ending up on the GH Jungle square that is 1S of the G Silk For
T43 After Blue Worker has done his exploration, Red Archer either uses that information to capture a Worker or else Orange Archer pillages the Road
T43 If Orange Archer pillaged the Road, Blue Worker will partially rebuild it

T43 Yellow Warrior moves 1S G Silk For to avoid "scaring away" any potential Worker that could move to the G Rice next turn (or could already be there)

Spoiler :

We're getting closer now, with 2 Workers being on the same square...
T44 Yellow Warrior moves to the GH Jungle square that is 1S of the G Silk For

T44 Purple Worker completes the Road
T44 Blue Worker explores along the Road and returns to the GH Jungle square, ensuring that he has at least 0.5 movement points remaining when returning to the GH Jungle square

T44 Red Archer will capture any Worker revealed by the Worker but will not explore himself; if our Worker didn't reveal an AI Worker, then the Orange Archer will pillage and not explore... we need to have 2 Military Units on the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For in order for a Military Unit to be able to explore

T44 If Orange Archer pillaged, then Blue Worker will build a Partial Road

Spoiler :

Here's where things get really cool... we can spring the trap every turn and we can explore in 2 directions every turn... until we catch a Worker, at which point it will take a little bit longer to set up the trap again.

T45 Purple Worker completes the Road
T45 Blue Worker explores somewhere along a Road, probably 1NE GH Jungle, as it gives the most attack vectors, then returns to the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For with at least 0.5 movement points remaining
EDIT: Actually: T45 Blue Worker explores 1W G Jungle, 1S GH Rice Jungle, then returns to the GH Jungle that is 1S of the G Silk For with at least 0.5 movement points remaining. In this way, we can even reveal 3 more attack vectors not shown in the image below, 1SW, 1S, and 1SE of the GH Rice Jungle square that is 1SW of the GH Jungle square from which we are launching our trap.

T45 Red Archer will capture a Worker that we spotted; if there are no such Workers, then Orange Archer (unlike last turn) CAN afford to explore in the opposite direction than Blue Worker went and will either capture a Worker or else return back to the GH Jungle square that is 1S of the G Silk For

T45 Yellow Warrior will pillage the Road
T45 Blue Worker will partially rebuild the Road

At this point, if we haven't captured any Workers, we will find ourselves at the start of next turn in an identical position as at the start of this turn. In other words, we just keep repeating this turn's steps every turn until we capture a Worker. When we do capture a Worker, it will take a little bit more time to set the trap up again, but we'll be up another Worker, so that fact will be fine.

Spoiler :

Ideally, we'll get a second Archer to the trap square, allowing us more freedom (say, 2 Worker-captures in 2 different directions on the same turn, while still being able to Pillage the Road with the Warrior).


EDIT: Note that once we have the "complete" trap set up (as per Turn 45 in the above set of steps), we'll be able to "attack" any out of 11 squares per turn.

 

[Jastrow]

How big does an island have to be for Barb units to spawn on it? For example, if there is an island, will it help to have a Scout spawn-bust it? Or, if it is small enough, we wouldn't need to bother?

I beleive that barbs can span on a 1-tile island. However, if we are talking about the island SE of the starting spot, it looks to me like it is only 4 ot 5 tiles, and once we land a settler on it, it will obviously spawnbust the entire thing.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

By the way, I would NOT kill the Confucian Missionary, should you get the opportunity to do so. We want Mansa to spread Confucianism to us, and I imagine that he'll be more likely to do so if he no longer needs to spread it to his Cities.


The test game also has Monte founding Taoism right away; if I get time, I should start from an older test saved game and adjust that fact accordingly.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I believe that barbs can spawn on a 1-tile island. However, if we are talking about the island SE of the starting spot, it looks to me like it is only 4 to 5 tiles, and once we land a settler on it, it will obviously spawnbust the entire thing.

It's the "what could spawn before a Settler lands" part that has me being potentially concerned. At least if we drop off a Scout first, we'll know whether or not we'll need to come back with an Archer or just a Settler (just a Settler if the Scout remains there to spawn-bust).

Obviously, if it's not an island or at least not clearly an island (an island that may appear to go on really far southward would be one such example of "not clearly being an island"), then we won't be hurrying to send a Settler there, as, no matter how much water separates your Cities, if they are connected to each other via the same landmass, you won't get the Overseas Trade Route boost.

 

[Jastrow]

Well, real life just popped up with more news... I have to leave on a buisiness trip tomorrow at noon (It was originaly scheduled for 1 day later), and will be away until Thursday evening (was originally supposed to end one day earlier). I will have limited (at best) internet access during this period, so do not wait for input from me once there is a concensus reached.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@Jastrow: Do you have an opinion on the "advanced" Worker Trap? Is it something that you see us going for? It has a limited timeline... basically, once Mansa's Cultural Borders expand over top of the Roads, we will call it quits.

The nice part is that by that time, after having forced Mansa to build a couple of more Workers instead of Military Units, while our Cities have continued to grow, we should have both seen a sufficient amount of time pass to obtain Open Borders and, against Mitchum's fear, we should have more population points, assuming that factor matters like he claimed it could for getting a Cease Fire.

Whether or not we go for an immediate Cease Fire to attempt what looks like it could be a very effective Worker Trap is probably the last thing still in contention.


EDIT: The other nice thing is that we'll have helped Mansa make the Roads, so it won't be long before we can get a Road connection completed to his capital, as long as he plays nicely and Open Borders with us after that long waiting period.

 

[Jastrow]

Frankly, I cannot follow the details of the worker trap without playing with the test game, and I do not have time to do so. My gut reaction is that it is too risky (depending on the AI behaviour to be exactly the same as in the test game, despite the fact that the various units might conceivably be on different "mission" settings), that I would not really trust it without massive testing...

That is to say, I am not against it per say on principle, but I dont really trust that we have control of the details.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I updated the last image in the Advanced Worker Trap and I updated the test game to get Confucianism being founded properly (instead of Taoism).

I'm still working on tossing together a PPP.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Proposed PPP (Mitchum is slated to play it, not me, and I imagine that he'll make updates to it)
Turn 38
i. Execute the Advanced Worker Trap
Obviously, be smart about it... don't walk our Warrior on a square that is adjacent to a Skirm or anything like that, but hopefully, it will play out in a way that is similar to the plan that I outlined, with a possible turn or two of delay if the Skirm goes to an undesirable location. If you don't feel comfortable playing "fast and loose" with the northern Worker, then have the Warrior guard it... it will not be a big deal if we send that Worker southward a bit slower.
For example, if there is a delay in sending that Worker southward, you could instead have the Worker by the Archer complete the GH Jungle Road on the square that is 1E of the G Silk For by having the Archer + "Purple" Worker move to that GH Jungle square on Turn 41. Doing so would definitely make for a safer plan and would buy the Warrior + Worker some time to delay in getting down to the south.

Another thought is that if the Skirm went 1W at the end of Turn 38 (it did it one test game run for me), the Worker and Warrior can just stay in place for one turn on Turn 39... and then on Turn 40, the Archer and "Purple" Worker can head 1NE to the GH Jungle that is 1E of the G Silk For and thereby allow the Warrior 1 move 1S G Riv while the Worker can see if it is safe to move 2S to the G Jungle that is 1E of the GH Rice. The "lost" "Purple" Worker turn would be more than made up for by the "Blue" Worker getting to the south faster.
OR
ii. a) "Blue" Worker on the GH Rice completes the Road
ii. b) Orange/Red Archer moves 1N along the Road to the G Jungle and captures a Worker or else returns to guarding the Worker from Barb units
ii. c) Take a Cease Fire with Mansa
ii. d) Try to get Open Borders with Mansa ASAP... let him connect-up his Cities but do our best to connect our second City to his second City (maybe don't put a Road on his Copper to not make it TOO easy for him to get to Axemen/Spearmen)
ii. e) From here on in, you're on your own for figuring out your unit movements for these "northern" units... when our Workers are safely within Mansa's Cultural Borders or have walked home around his Cultural Borders, I'm thinking of having the Warrior explore and spawn-bust the area north of Djenne, but do whatever feels right

Research stays at 0% on Currency for the entire turnset... we may need to "spend" that Gold later on further expansion where we can get yet another City to build a Library and hire Scientists (or, in the case of a second G Riv City, work Cottages, which will pay off sooner in the short term, as it takes a while to get a Library and then regrow after whipping a Library)

Aachen continues to build a Settler
Prague continues to build an Archer
Ivory continues to build a Granary

If you want to stop what the Workers are doing, you can; otherwise, they will automatically continue their current Worker actions next turn, as I didn't stop what they were doing


Turn 39
Aachen continues to build a Settler
Prague continues to build an Archer
Ivory continues to build a Granary

Scout continues to skip his turn on the G Fur For (we don't want to risk moving him and have a Barb City spawn a couple of turns prior to us sending a Settler there)... don't get tempted to explore, not even "back and forth."

Archer 4 heads north-west toward the spawn-busting point. The key with this location is that we cover most of the fogged squares to the south to prevent Barbs spawning near to our empire, while also revealing the "obvious" settling location that has all 5 Resources in the area within its big fat cross, thereby fog-busting that square to prevent a Barb City from appearing there.

Workers 1 and 3 (refering to them by the number that you press to activate them, not their names): complete the G Riv Cottage 1SE of Prague
Worker 2 continue to Camp the G Ivory For 1N of Ivory City

Turn 40
Aachen continues to build a Settler
Prague switches to building a Library and whips it, overflowing into a Monument if we took a Cease Fire otherwise overflowing into an Archer. Work the Pig + G Riv Cottage (it hurts to not work the Cow but Commerce is important now and this way we'll time City growth with the wearing-off of Unhappiness... that said, if we have stopped the war, work the Pig + Cow for 1 turn so that next turn, we'll be able to complete the Monument at the start of next turn, instead of having 29/30 Hammers in the Monument... although you could also just make that decision next turn and work the Cottage now, working the Cow next turn to complete said Monument)
Ivory continues to build a Granary

Archer 4 heads north-west and arrives at the spawn-busting point

Here's where Workers 1 and 3 can get tricky:
Worker 1 moves 1SW G Riv and if there are no Barb units visible that can attack him, he builds a partial Road on this square, since we can see all squares that are 2-squares away and thus we will be able to see if any Panthers or Wolves can attack him; if the coast is clear, Worker 3 then moves 1E G For (1SE of the G Cow)

If, however, Worker 1 spots a Barb unit that can attack him, he will retreat to the G Riv Cottage that is 1SE of Prague; if Worker 3 won't be attackable by the Barb unit by moving to the G For that is 1SE of the G Cow, Worker 3 will move 1E G For

Otherwise, if Worker 3 would be within range of a spotted Panther or Wolf by moving 1E, he will instead "kill time" by building a partial Road on the G Riv Cottage.

Essentially, the goal is for you to get the Workers heading eastward.

In the ideal case, where no Barbs are visible, here is what those Workers can do:

Spoiler :

Turn 40:
Worker 1 builds a partial Road on the G Riv that is 1S of the G Riv Pig
Worker 3 moves 1E to the G For that is 1SE of the G Cow

Turn 41:
Worker 1 completes the Road on the G Riv that is 1S of the G Riv Pig (and thereby will be keeping an eye out for Barb threats this turn and next turn)
Worker 3 starts to build a Road on the G For that is 1SE of the G Cow

Turn 42:
Worker 1 notices that there are still no Barb units visible and moves 1NE G Riv Cottage (1SE of Prague) and builds a partial Road there
Worker 3 completes the Road on the G For that is 1SE of the G Cow

Turn 43:
A Panther or Wolf could theoretically be in reach of the G For square that is 1SE of the G Cow, but we don't care as we won't need units to end their turn on this square anymore in this ideal case.
Worker 1 completes the Road on the G Riv Cottage that is 1SE of Prague
Worker 3 moves 1E G (1N of the G Banana Jungle) and builds a partial Road there... he CANNOT move toward our capital instead as then he'll end his turn next to the Skirmisher there

Turn 44:
Worker 1 can move 2E along the Roads and finish the Road on the G that is 1N of the G Banana Jungle
Worker 3 can board the Galley

Turn 45:
Worker 1 can move NE G, E Aachen
The Galley can move into the newly-settled Peninsula City on the Rice and unload Worker 3, thereby allowing Worker 3 to move to the G Fur For and starting to Camp this turn

Turn 46:
Worker 1 can can help out at Ivory City... probably first partially Chopping the G For Road that is NE + NE of Aachen


Turn 47:
Worker 1 can move to one of the Forests at Ivory City to help with Chopping it

Turn 41
Aachen whips the Settler and works the Pig + GH Banana Mine (we should see 129/100 Hammers--don't forget that this amount is not "too many Hammers" because some will get subtracted when removing the Imperial bonus to Settler production)
Prague completes the Library and overflows into a Monument/Archer, as appropriate (Monument if we are no longer at war with Mansa)--yes, we will have 1 Unhappy person and Work the Pig + G Riv Cottage
Ivory continues to build a Granary

Scout continues to skip his turn on the G Fur For

Archer can Skip his turn from now on at the spawn-busting location 1N of the G Banana Jungle (really, it's a free way for you to get to see what's going on in the area, so why Fortify and miss potentially useful info on the Barb situation?)

Worker 2 should complete the Ivory Camp this turn, assuming that no Barb units came to harass him (we will still need a Road to get +1 Happiness)

Turn 42
Aachen completes the Settler and should be able to finish a Galley within 1 turn
Prague completes the Monument/Archer and starts on an Archer. Prague will work the Pig + G Riv Cottage
Ivory continues to build a Granary

The Settler can just end its turn in Aachen while it waits for our Galley to arrive

Worker 2 starts on a Road on the G Ivory For

The new Archer in Prague, assuming that we built one, can help Workers 1 and 3 be protected from any Barbs in the south, otherwise, he can make his way northward, probably:

Spoiler :

Turn 42
1NW G (1S of the G Copper)

Turn 43
1NW G Jungle (1W of the G Copper)

Turn 44
1N G Jungle Road (2W of Djenne)

Turn 45
1N G Jungle (2S of the G Silk For) to avoid scaring away Worker Trap victims like he might do if he were to move 1NW GH Rice Jungle Road

Turn 46
1N GH Jungle (1S of the G Silk For), where the Worker Trap is being sprung from
Alternatively, on Turn 42 we can avoid walking on the barren Grassland square near Mansa's City can can just head 1W G Jungle -> 1NW G Pig Jungle -> 1N G Jungle (1W of the Copper) -> Turn 45's move being performed on Turn 46

Turn 43
Aachen completes the Galley and builds I don't know what... perhaps an Archer for 1 turn in case we need to whip one in an emergency and then a Library

Worker 2 (unless Barbs have bothered him) completes the Road on the Ivory

Prague, given the extra Happy person, can now work:
Pig + 2 Scientists (it's always best to hire 2 Scientists at a time instead of 1 at a time when running at a 0% Science Rate, to get the free Flask... 7 for 2 instead of 3 for 1)
Ivory City continues to build the Granary

Our Settler boards the Galley (but no Worker boards the Galley)

The Galley moves to the Coast square that is 1NW of our G Rice Jungle


From here on in, it depends a lot on what happened with our units...
The big points in the future will be:
- We have a Worker board our Galley on Turn 44 and then the Galley can go into the Rice Peninsula City to unload, thereby letting the Worker start Camping the Fur
- After Camping and Roading an Ivory, our Worker at Ivory City can probably improve the next Ivory and then he and the Worker that joined him (Worker 3) can work on Chopping a couple of Forests into a Granary and then a Library... if you are somehow able to get Worker 3 there one turn faster, due to the Barbs forcing your hand or something, you could instead have both Workers move to a Forest and Chop it into a Granary such that we'd complete the Granary in time to get some carry-over Food... but, if Worker 3 can't arrive on said Forest by Turn 46 (he would arrive on Turn 47 as per my "ideal case" listed above), then you're better off just having Worker 2 work on the second Ivory Camp, as completing the Granary at the same time as growing is equivalent to completing the Granary later, but then we'd have a second improved Ivory Camp to work when reaching Size 2
- After unloading the Worker inside of Rice Peninsula City, we can take the Scout toward the hoped-for island in the east... if he dies, he will still have served his purpose, but if he lives and it is an island, then our Galley can head northward so that we can pick up the next Settler that gets whipped out of Aachen (the Settler could walk along our Road network and board our Galley on the second turn of movement... but he'd only do so if it really were an island... if it's not an island, we could consider settling a second G Riv City or else a Horse City instead)
- Once we have the Ivory connected and Aachen regrows to Size 4, we should have 4 Happy people, at which point it actually helps to work Pig + GH Banana + 2 Forests... when we only have 3 Happy people, working the Rice instead of a G For is fine as there's on difference, but working 2 G For squares gives us +1 bonus Hammer
- Our Rice Peninsula City COULD go Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse, but I think that getting the Granary first will still be better, as additional citizens can just work 2 Food + 2 Commerce Coast squares, so getting those citizens faster will probably be a better approach than skipping the Granary