SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

Unfortunately, I will not be able to, thanks to travel.

We've already got an up-to-date test game, micro suggestions for every City and every Worker, and consensus on our next tech... now it will just be a waiting game for whomever has time to play through a couple of test runs, refine any details as necessary, and play it out.


As for how long to play...
A natural stopping point would be when an AI that we know will trade techs with us (for example, if Mansa learns Alphabet)... we should have a discussion before trading.

If we learn Horseback Riding, that would be a good time to stop play, as well.

Otherwise, probably about 10 turns from now we should reassess our situation (how close we are to Horseback Riding relative to our Great Person, for example) and replan our City builds and Worker actions for the next block of time.


M00d-altering comment: Must not feed the troll, must not feed the troll... trollololol.
 
Switching hotels tonight to one with internet that actually works... "Have you tried moving your computer closer to the door?..."

Might be able to catch up and plan to get a set in this weekend.
 
"Have you tried moving your computer closer to the door?..."
To that, I might reply: have you tried installing your router upside-down? I haven't tried to do so, but it might work if their router is on the first floor, since you generally get a signal cone going out from the bottom of the router... it would be neat if all you had to do was turn it upside-down to get the opposite effect.


We're in a good position in this game... Jastrow has set us up well.

We have a plan in place for the next turnset.

Now we just need someone with some time cycles to be able to play it out.
 
We're on Turn 76. At this stage, the Ducks must have Iron Working and have connected-up their Pig Resources, as their Score indicates that their population has grown quite a bit.

By natural extension, they must also have the extra Commerce from Silver + Gems.

By Turn 90, they have a big power jump. By Turn 94, they have a big score jump, indicating that they've gone to war. Now, you can't use those turn numbers as absolute values, so perhaps they started spamming their military units a few turns sooner.


The big question is... can they already have Cuirassiers? Probably not, even with really early access to Iron Working. Knights? Maybe.


For defeating Mansa and increasing our Score with Mansa's population points, Horse Archers will be enough. Any AI that we can reach pre-Feudalism could also get crushed sufficiently with Horse Archers, while we use City Capture Gold to push our way to the next tech level.


We're just going to have to push as hard as we can toward Horse Archers and then hope that our lack of luck with Mansa learning Alphabet translates into us gaining the luck of being able to reach another AI who did not learn Feudalism.
 
I'm back from my trip and I've dug myself partway out of the hole I was in at work. I really don't have time to play but since this game has stalled, I'll try to play a turnset either today or tomorrow. Then chopster or Dhoom can pick it up after that. My goal is to play though the discovery of HBR.

I'll post a high-level PPP in an hour or two and I'll play once I have 2 approvals or 24 hours. Whichever comes first. I just have to re-read the last several posts and play around with the test game first.
 
That took longer than expected. I had to play through the test game 4 or 5 times to try out different micro in each city...

Research HBR using binary research. May use partial research if it gets us HBR a turn sooner.

Aachen: Confucian Temple (2 turns to get 14/80H) -> Mids -> whip temple just before growing to size 7 on T81 as suggested -> Mids (hire priest on T84 when growth to 5 pops to change the Mids from a 3T build to a 2T build) -> Wealth

NOTE: Or do we whip it two turns after growing to 7 pops which gives us two extra turn of having 2 scientists without delaying the Pyramids at all… In fact, then we don’t have to hire a priest since we’ll have also worked the GH mine for some extra turns.

Prague: Temple for 1 turn to get 26/80H and whip for 2 pops -> chariot -> Wealth. Grow to 5 pops and then work 2 sci, priest, pigs and cow to speed up the next great person.

NOTE: running specialists here right when we grow to 5 pops forces us to ignore two hamlets. Should we instead hire just one specialist and work the two cottages for 2 turns to speed up growth to 6 pops so that we can at least work one of the cottages while we have 3 specialists hired? I think we should since commerce seems to be a bottleneck and I hate to ignore two hamlets. If we win the culture battle over the pigs sooner, we can work that to grow even faster. This slows down the great person by 2 turns but provides +6C for those 2 turns plus gets us to 6 pops 5ish turns sooner providing +3C for those extra 5 turns. Net result is +21C for a 2 turn delay in the next Great Person (we also “lose” 3 beakers and 1H 1C for those 2 turns for not working a scientist and priest). So the full tradeoff is 10F 21C for 12 GPP, 6B, 2H, 2C… or something similar. Keep in mind that we’ll also grow to 7 pops sooner so the extra food snowballs…

Better may be to whip the turn after growing to 7 pops and keep working cottage tiles until growing back to 6 pops before hiring the 3 specialists… this maximized commerce.

Ivory City: Settler (for Dual Banana) -> Wealth (keep barracks in build queue)

Rice: Galley (2T to get 16/50H then whip for 2 pops when the 26H OF will complete the GLH so that we can work the 2 coast squares (and plains cottage starting on T80) as long as possible) -> GLH -> Wealth Building a galley instead of a spear allows us to keep working the copper and fur non-stop.

NOTE: with this micro, we have 206/200H into the GLH on T85. I could actually speed the GLH up by 1 turn by assigning the third citizen to the plains tile just before we grow to 4 pops on T77 (this delays when we grow to 4 by 1 turn). So we’d lose out on 2F2C from the fourth citizen by delaying growth and another 2F2C for the 2 turns while we work the plains instead of the coast with the third citizen. With 5 coastal cities, I think it’s worth it for +10 commerce 1 turn sooner plus a slightly more secure GLH date.

Do nothing but slow build the GLH: Finish T87 (start of T88)
Work coast instead of plains and 2-pop a galley: Finish T84 (start of T85)
Work plains instead of coast for 2T and 2-pop a galley: Finish T83 (start of T84)


Island: LH (whip when possible on T81) -> work boat for Fish -> Wealth (manually assign new citizens to work coastal tiles for the commerce pre LH).

GP Farm: Wealth (keep library in build queue)

Horse: granary (whip when foodbox is just under half full so that we can work the 2 coast squares for as long as possible or better yet a nice resource should we get IW from Mansa). We can even leave the granary at just enough to be a 1-pop whip, which happens on T81, and leave it unfinished in the build queue while we build wealth while waiting for the foodbox to get half full. Getting the granary any sooner than it being half full is a waste) -> Wealth

NE: Wealth -> Library to catch forest chops on T78 -> Wealth

Fish: Monument -> granary (or LH first?)

Silver: Monument -> Wealth


Worker micro per Dhoom’s posts 1337 and 1338.

Worker 1 (near NE): Mine at NE-E -> road mine at NE-E (to speed up getting to forest at NE-2E or in case there is iron on that tile) -> move to ivory resource at Ivory City-N+NW and road -> camp NE’s ivory at NE-S+SW just as borders pop

Worker 2 (near NE): chop at NE-N -> help build farm at NE-W -> help farm at NE-NW -> move to ivory resource at Ivory-N+NW (no worker action this turn) -> camp NE’s ivory at NE-S+SW just as borders pop

Worker 3 (near NE): chop at NE-W -> farm NE-W -> help farm at NE-NW -> road at NE-NW -> move to ivory resource at Ivory-N+NW (no worker action this turn) -> camp NE’s ivory at NE-S+SW just as borders pop

Worker 4 (near Prague): board galley and unload in Rice to put a cottage on the plains tile at Rice-W -> cottage plains tile at Fish-N

Worker 5 (near Prague): finish cottage at Aachen-W -> partial farm at Aachen-NE+NE -> chop forest at Aachen-4E into Pyramids -> road hill at Aachen-4E

Worker 6 (near NE): chop at NE-NW -> help build farm at NE-W -> farm NE-NW -> move to ivory resource at Ivory-N+NW (no worker action this turn) -> camp NE’s ivory at NE-S+SW just as borders pop

NOTE: Workers near NE actually lose some worker turns, but we get the farm up at NE-W just in time so that the city can work an improved tile rather than just a grassland tile. Since we currently have worker turns to spare, I’d rather do this than lose out on 1F…

Later, moving them to Ivory City-N+NW keeps them inside our borders and waits for the borders of NE to pop next turn so that they can camp NE’s ivory just as the city grows to 5 pops. Ivory City’s ivory gets camped 1 turn later, but it’s already working 2 improved tiles. So, I guess the question is whether we want Ivory City or NE’s ivory camped first... We do get 2 turns worth of a camp on Ivory City’s ivory on T83 and all 4 workers are standing on that tile. So we can complete either one first.


Galley 1: Drop off worker 4 in Rice city and then head west for the eventual culture bridge.

Galley 2: Head west to have two boats just in case the exploration forks by Silver Bridge.

Warrior: MP duty in Fish or Silver? Or keep an eye on Mansa?

Things to do each turn:

Don’t forget to switch to HBR on the first turn!!!
Look to see if tech trading is available.
Check to see if we have won the culture battle over the pigs near Prague and work this tile in GP Farm once available.
Manually save the game.

Open Items:

1. Whip temple in Aachen after growing to 7 pops to keep scientists hired longer.

2. When to whip the temple in Prague and whether to maximize GPP or food and commerce.

3. Whether to complete the GLH on T83, T84 or T87.

4. What to do with the warrior.
 
As for delaying the Great Person... are we thinking of switching into Police State prior to launching a Golden Age? If no, then +21 Commerce isn't better than 1 turn of Anarchy due to feeling pressured into switching into Police State, nor is +21 Commerce better than delaying our warring for game 2 turns if we feel that we really should wait until we get that Golden Age before switching into Police State.

If you can delay the whipping of the Temple without delaying when we'll get our Great Person, that's also an option.


Mitchum said:
Rice: Galley (2T to get 16/50H then whip for 2 pops
Note that building the Galley for 1 turn versus 2 turns is no different in terms of how many Hammers we'll get... but, there is a greater risk that we'll forget to whip the Galley and it will become a 1-pop-whip. It might be better to plan to build the Galley for 1 turn and switch away from building it back to The Great Lighthouse for 1 turn, giving you more leeway in case of accidentally forgetting about the Galley. Forgetting to switch building items is our team's kryptonite, so the more steps that we can take to avoid setting ourselves up for disaster, the better, I say.

Sure, feel free to micro being able to complete The Great Lighthouse 1 turn faster by working the Plains square. We were supposed to have a Worker loading onto the Galley and then unloading into Rice City, so it's possible that we could even have a Cottage on that Plains square by that point in time (I don't have the game up in front of me to check).


Mitchum said:
(manually assign new citizens to work coastal tiles for the commerce pre LH).
Maybe confirm in the test game if Emphasize Commerce will handle this detail for you, in case you forget to check while playing the real game?


Mitchum said:
Fish: Monument -> granary (or LH first?)
Since we'll probably have to 2-pop-whip whichever Building we make, it comes down to... will there be at least 1, if not 2 land squares that we can work instead of un-Lighthoused-Coast squares, in addition to the Fish? If we have some land squares to work (I forget), then Granary, but if we only have Coast squares to work then we should build a Lighthouse first (we can also optionally steal the Fur later, after The Great Lighthouse has been completed).


Mitchum said:
Galley 1: Drop off worker 4 in Rice city and then head west for the eventual culture bridge.
Do we also need to send a City Defender over to Island City first? Or, will Island City build its own Archer at some point?


Mitchum said:
Galley 2: Head west to have two boats just in case the exploration forks by Silver Bridge.
I thought that we wanted to have a boat near Fish City (Jastrow initially said a Work Boat but a Galley is a good alternative given that it speeds up The Great Lighthouse). There are also "weird coastal Ocean" squares by Fish City, and given the small height of the map, we could just as equally have a bridge by Fish City. It's not too unrealistic to think that the only bridge is by Fish City instead of by the Peaks, since the Peaks were man-made and thus the coastal Ocean squares by there are potentially quite "deep"... with the "tradeoff" being that if you settle on the Fur to waste it and only get 1 good peninsula City, you can expand your Cultural Borders faster... just a thought, but I say that it's worth being prepared to explore southward at both locations.

Also, this way, this second Galley can be used to shuttle any Military Unit that could possibly need to go to Island City.


Further, I wouldn't dump the Chariot on our Galley too soon "just to get it over with..." there might be a Worker-stealing operation that might come available again if we keep our Chariot handy.


Mitchum said:
Warrior: MP duty in Fish or Silver? Or keep an eye on Mansa?
I'm okay for him to keep an eye on Mansa for a while as long as we don't incur Unit Supply Costs for the turn (remember our Galleys and other units that may dip in and out of our Cultural Borders).


Open Items:
1. I haven't got the game in front of me, so I can't really comment right now... make your best judgment
2. Get the Great Person ASAP, to keep our options open
3. T83
4. As long as he's not needed for stifling Unhappiness and isn't costing us Gold, I see nothing wrong with having him keep an eye on Djenne, but I wouldn't send him much deeper into Mansa's territory... if you want to send a unit deeper, use the Chariot that you'll build


I haven't reviewed the Worker actions since you said that you (at least roughly) followed what I suggested.

I probably won't get more time to comment before your 24 hours have passed, so good luck! :goodjob:
 
Regarding the next Great Person, we'll finish the Pyramids before we have our next GP by several turns. So if you're going to push for revolting to Police State on the turn the 'Mids are completed, it's going to come with anarchy no matter what we do in Prague. I'm inclined to delay the GP by 2 turns personally. Jastrow wasn't wanting to "waste" the GP on a Golden Age this early anyway, so maybe we should just bite the bullet and revolt to PS on the turn the Mids are in and we've learned HBR...

I'll build a LH in Fish. There are land tiles to work (we're building a cottage on a plains square there per your suggestion) and some of them are riverside Grass shared with Rice if I remember correctly but they require IW...

I'll keep Galley 2 in the east as suggested... although we'll know if a border pop leads to anything in 1 or 2 turns there which is way before Galley 2 is even finished, in which case we could send Galley 1 east if there is a land bridge there.

Other than the GP issue in Prague, it looks like we're on the same page. Keep in mind that working the cottages likely speeds up HBR by a turn... plus we'll most likely be revolting to PS sans a Golden Age should we want to do it ASAP.
 
I just thought of something. Aachen could hire a priest after whipping the temple and possibly beat Prague to our next GP no matter what we do in Prague. I'll have to check three game tomorrow.
 
Regarding the next Great Person, we'll finish the Pyramids before we have our next GP by several turns. So if you're going to push for revolting to Police State on the turn the 'Mids are completed, it's going to come with anarchy no matter what we do in Prague. I'm inclined to delay the GP by 2 turns personally. Jastrow wasn't wanting to "waste" the GP on a Golden Age this early anyway, so maybe we should just bite the bullet and revolt to PS on the turn the Mids are in and we've learned HBR...
It was my impression that he wanted to run Representation, which would mean Great Person ASAP, switch to Representation at the start of the Golden Age, and then switch to Police State at the end of the Golden Age.

That said, you're probably right that we should just switch into Police State ASAP, as we really need to get the war going, both in terms of stealing Mansa's Cities and his Workers. Also, then being prepared to potentially go for another quick war would be great and failing that, we'd only need 1 more tech (Construction) to be able to pump out enough units to fight against Longbowmen.

Worst case, we can't reach an AI to the south but we should at least be able to reach the Barb City in the west... there isn't a full wall of Peaks over there, which is something that I discovered when setting up the test game since we'd have "seen" the Peaks from further away if they existed there, so there is definitely room to move about and the Barb City can't have a unit stronger than a Longbowman/Crossbowman anyway, plus the only (currently visible) way to get to that City is to capture Mansa's land.



I'll build a LH in Fish. There are land tiles to work (we're building a cottage on a plains square there per your suggestion) and some of them are riverside Grass shared with Rice if I remember correctly but they require IW...
Just to clarify, if we're working land squares, as you are suggesting that we can, we'd build the Granary before the Lighthouse.


Other than the GP issue in Prague, it looks like we're on the same page. Keep in mind that working the cottages likely speeds up HBR by a turn... plus we'll most likely be revolting to PS sans a Golden Age should we want to do it ASAP.
Okay, sure, then let's make it the plan to go for Police State as soon as we get Horseback Riding (we can obviously leave the Civic Revolting action to the start of the next turnset, to allow us to change our minds).


As for the Worker actions... I don't think that it is a fair assumption to make to say that we have a lot of them. We really are talking about a difference of 1 Food in total, not 1 Food per turn, since NE City will hire 2 Scientists one turn later.

The whole point of building a Road and not a Farm on the Grassland square 1W of NE City was to be able to gain Worker turns elsewhere... those gained Worker turns, for example, mean a faster Camped G Ivory For square, and all future Worker actions happening 1 turn sooner, such as the wet G Banana getting Farmed.

Further, it is at least Jastrow's hope that we'll get Alphabet at any time in trade. If that happens, Worker turns will be our most valuable Resource, as getting those Pig, Gems, and Silver Resources up-and-running will become critical actions.

Thus, I think that it still makes sense for Worker 3 to Chop, Road, then move to the G Ivory For and Road it, allowing any Worker who builds a partial Farm on the Grassland square 1W of NE City to be able to move to the G Ivory For square and put in a turn of Camping that square for free.


Thinking about it further, some of the "free" Worker actions may just translate into having a Road 1W of NE City, but better that than losing Worker turns in total.



Remember that NE City doesn't have to build a Library on Turn 76 to "catch" Chopped Hammers into a Library, as those Hammers can be parked into a Wealth build. Your PPP had us building Wealth, but I'm just confirming this fact for you.


Finally, I played it out a bit... on Turn 78, when we Chop the last 2 Forests into the Library, we will have a Pastured Pig and a GH Mine to work at Size 2.

On Turn 79, 350 AD, we will be at Size 3 and will own a Library, so we can hire 2 Scientists immediately. Thus, there's no rush on getting a G Farm 1W of NE City.

If we later want to fire some Scientists after we've had time to complete the Grassland Farm 1W of NE City, we can do so, but there's no need to rush to complete it now.


Besides, I do have a concern that we aren't prioritising sending our Workers southward.

I'd prefer to put a higher priority on Farming the wet G Banana at Ivory City than I would on Camping the Ivory for NE City.

We also need to make sure that a Worker moves from Camping the G Ivory For that is NW + N of Ivory City to the G For that is 4W of Ivory City (NE + N of the GH Banana Mine), as Chopping that Forest will speed up The Pyramids. This movement can happen within the span of 1 turn if we first have Worker 3 Roading the G Ivory For square.

I don't see the need to save this Forest to build additional Wonders, and even if we do want to build MoM or something later, we can just use the Forests that are in Djenne's Cultural Borders to do so.

As for Worker 5, I thought about it some more... I'm not exactly sure if we have enough Worker turns to do so before completing The Pyramids, but we could potentially do something like:
Worker 5 (near Prague): finish cottage at Aachen-W -> partial farm at Aachen-NE+NE -> partial Farm at Ivory City-SW+S -> Farm the wet G Banana (or at least help to Farm it) -> chop forest at Aachen-4E into Pyramids...

I'm not sure that we really need a Road on that GH square, though... I guess that if we still haven't gotten Iron Working in trade by then, you can build a Road there, as we'll want a Road there eventually, but it's a very low priority for a Worker action and I'd skip building the GH Road at this point if there's anything else useful that our Worker could do elsewhere.


Mitchum said:
Worker 1 (near NE): Mine at NE-E -> road mine at NE-E (to speed up getting to forest at NE-2E or in case there is iron on that tile) -> move to ivory resource at Ivory City-N+NW and road -> camp NE’s ivory at NE-S+SW just as borders pop
It seems that we have 5 Worker turns to use up with this Worker before we can start Camping NE City's Ivory.

1 of those Worker actions can be completing the Grassland Farm 1W of NE City.

If you count Roading the GH Mine at NE-E, that leaves two Worker actions.

After Worker 3 Roads NE-W and Roads the G Ivory For square, Workers 2 and 6, who have partially Farmed NE-W can move to the G Ivory For and Camp it for 2 turns, leaving Worker 3 to go elsewhere (heading toward the wet G Banana, for example, by partially Farming along the way (Farm at Ivory City-E, Farm at Ivory City-S, then Farming the wet G Banana).

But, that still leaves Worker 1 with four Worker actions to use up.

You did mention Roading NE-E, but it might be better to simply use Worker 1 to Mine NE-E then finish off the Grassland Farm at NE-W, which allows us to get the G Ivory For connected quickly and also allows us to temporarily fire the 2 Scientists sooner to work the G Farm and the GH Mine to be able to grow to Size 4 then rehire the 2 Scientists while working the G Farm while we wait for the G Ivory to come online.

I'm not sure what to recommend here and it depends upon how soon we might want that NE-W Farm completed. I've run out of time to check when we'd ideally want it completed.

Ideas for what to do with Worker 1's other turns include:
i. Roading the GH For at NE-2E, although I'm not sure that's totally useful
ii. partially Farming the G at NE-NW (although we will have to lose 1 Worker turn to get to the G Ivory, unless we delay completing the NE-W Farm until right before needing to move to the G Ivory, but we probably want the Farm at NE-W online sooner than that)
iii. partially Chopping the G For at NE-NW+W
iv. Roading the G Jungle that is at NE-S... actually, this option might work out okay, as it lets us get to the GH For at NE-2E after Camping the Ivory... so, maybe something like:
Worker 1 (near NE): Mine at NE-E -> finish the G Farm at NE-W, which we can do without losing a Worker action thanks to Worker 3 having Roaded that square (and have NE City use that Farm and GH Mine to grow to Size 4) -> partially Farm at NE-NW for 1 turn (or 2 turns if my math is off, but I think only 1 turn) -> move to the G Jungle at NE-S and Road it -> Camp the G Ivory at NE-SW+S -> use the fact that we have a Road at NE-S to be able to get to the GH For at NE-2E within the span of 1 turn -> Chop then Mine that square (that's assuming that we don't have Iron Working yet, otherwise we can leave that Forest for later)
 
I've taken all of this into account and will ensure that I don't "lose" any worker actions. I was trying to grow NE as fast as possible so that it was at 5 or 6 pops which would enable us to quickly whip twice and complete 4 HAs in 4 or 5 turns. If we instead want to hire scientists and only work the farms as they slowly come on line I can do that too. To me, growth of NE for whipping was more important than losing 3 worker turns but I can adjust that...

I won't be able to play until about 5 hours from now, so I'll wait for any final comments.
 
I played through 500 AD. Here's are the highlights.

- I opened the save and noticed that Mansa Musa is running Heredity Rule. I never saw that mentioned before and I didn't spend much time with the real save. In any event, he must have researched Monarchy after CoL. He has yet to learn Alphabet or to settle another city (he still has 3).

- T78 I notice that Mansa has 1gpt so I cancel the marble deal and then sell him marble for 1 gpt.

- T79 the pig resource is ours. GP Farm switches from the cottage to the pig to speed up growth.

- T80 Confucianism is spread to Ivory City.

- T81 a GM is BIAFAL

- T83 two GSs are BIAFAL

- T84 (actually the end of T83) the GLH is ours!! I set research to 100% and we'll learn HBR the next turn.

- T85 the ToA is BIAFAL

- As of 500 BC (T85) we have just learned HBR.
- We will complete the Pyramids next turn and they have not been built yet so they're ours for sure.
- We will have a galley with a chariot on board this turn at Silver Bridge so that we're ready to go in 2 turns.
- The galley is a bit later getting to Island City but it will be there a turn or two late.
- The WB for Fish will also be a turn or two late but it's the best I could do.
- During my turnset a jungle grew over NE's ivory resource, so we got a -1F hit for that.

I think that's about it. I've just uploaded the save.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 275 AD to 500 AD:
Spoiler :
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Prague have expanded!

Turn 129, 350 AD: Confucianism has spread in Ivory City.

Turn 130, 375 AD: Cornelius Vanderbilt (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 132, 425 AD: You have constructed a Confucian Temple in Aachen. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.
Turn 132, 425 AD: You have trained a Galley in Rice. Work has now begun on The Great Lighthouse.
Turn 132, 425 AD: The borders of GP-Farm have expanded!
Turn 132, 425 AD: The borders of HorseCity have expanded!
Turn 132, 425 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 132, 425 AD: Rene Descartes (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 133, 450 AD: Island city can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 133, 450 AD: NorthEastern has grown to size 4.
Turn 133, 450 AD: The borders of NorthEastern are about to expand.
Turn 133, 450 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 13 ℤ for Aachen.
Turn 133, 450 AD: Aachen will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 133, 450 AD: GP-Farm will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 133, 450 AD: You have trained a Settler in Ivory City. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 133, 450 AD: Quartermaster has completed The Great Lighthouse!
Turn 133, 450 AD: The borders of NorthEastern have expanded!

Turn 134, 475 AD: Aachen has grown to size 5.
Turn 134, 475 AD: Aachen can hurry The Pyramids for 1⇴ with 9ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 28 turns.
Turn 134, 475 AD: Prague will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 134, 475 AD: GP-Farm has grown to size 4.
Turn 134, 475 AD: Prague will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 134, 475 AD: Island city will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 134, 475 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 134, 475 AD: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 135, 500 AD: Prague has grown to size 7.
Turn 135, 500 AD: Island city has grown to size 3.
Turn 135, 500 AD: HorseCity can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 135, 500 AD: The borders of Rice are about to expand.
 
Here is an updated test game. There are a few minor differences.

The total beakers are a bit higher in the test game as they were when I inherited it as far as I can tell.

I could not duplicate the 1 gpt trade with Monte. The gold is correct now but it gets off 1 gold per turn as expected.

I have 1 extra overflow hammer in Prague in the test game than in the real game (3 vs. 2). I'm not sure how it happened but we can fix it quite easily once we build something there.

Everything else should be correct.

I forgot to say that due to not wasting any worker turns, I had more than I knew what to do with so I moved 1 worker toward Horse City to start roading the gems in anticipation of getting IW from Mansa any turn now. ;)
 

Attachments

Ok, I will say this once, get outvoted by everyone else, and then you can continue the war the way you think is correct, but...

To be clear, I think:

1-Police state is a dreadful idea!
2-We need to be planning for oxford asap.
3-There is absolutly no rush to take our MM until we explore way more of the map.

The rest of you seem convinced this is a conquest game... I think that is 100% wrong. I think the entire set-up, with only conquest available, is a set-up where we are going to need to tech deeeeeep into the tree. I fully expect to need something like Paratroupers, or nukes...
 
I was thinking about this game a bit last night and here is my current thinking.

1. Let's just bite the bullet and research IW now. It is by far the most important tech for us at this time as it will allow our cities to really shine. Just getting gems and silver online will be huge. We can always use Math and Currency (assuming Mansa doesn't know them by the time he learns Alphabet) to pick up Monarchy, Alphabet and/or CoL. IW will be huge for us. I think we got a bit screwed here. If in other games Mansa beelined Alphabet like in most of my tests, they they will have had tech trading options for at least 30 turns...

2. Mansa is going to be pretty useless for us this game other than possibly picking up a couple of techs from him. I think we should take him out as soon as he's learned Alphabet and we're able to get said techs. He's been stuck at 3 cities for a long time and has prooven himself to be worthless... other than a few extra workers. :) I wonder if us attacking him put him on the Monarchy -> Feudalism path?

3. We won't know if there is a culture bridge for 2 more turns, so our only option may be through Mansa.

4. Even if there is a culture bridge, we need to get a coastal city up in the NW sooner rather than later so we can see what's going on up there. That points to taking out Mansa soonish. My original thought was to keep Mansa around for a long time to get a ton of techs from him but I don't see that happening this game since we've pretty much sealed him off and he'll be stuck at 5 cities max all game...

Regarding Jastrow's points, if we were thinking that early Oxford was important we probably should have skipped HBR and gone for an Education beeline with the plan of generating 2 more GSs to quickly bulb it. I'm not saying that it's too late to go for Oxford, but I think HBR was an unnecessary detour.

In my opinion, here is what we should do:

1. Research IW
2. Build up an army to take out Mansa Musa
3. Possibly build a worker or three... or use our first handful of HAs to steal a few more from Mansa while we choke him for an easier conquest a few turns later.
3. Hopefully launch our attack on MM after getting a tech or three from him.
4. Expore both culture bridge options (Island City and Silver Bridge) and plan accordingly.

Taking out Mansa doesn't commit us to anything. We can still go into full-scale war mode or switch to Oxford/science mode.
 
I agree.. I think HBR was a detour... Construction would have been at least usefull later... WE had time for some detouring before education, since are unis would not be ready in time anyway... IW back then might have been a better choice of course...

To be clear... I dont see much use for MM once we pick up the techs he already has... I just dont think it makes sense investing resources into taking him out until we have our research infra-structure set up.
 
We're all bound to have disagreements, but here's where I see this game going:
1. TECH
We tech Alphabet next. It's about equivalent to teching Iron Working except that we'll get additional techs. If we do find Mansa learning Alphabet sooner or if we do meet another AI that has Alphabet who will trade it to us, then it's NO WORSE than duplicating research on Iron Working but is better in the case where no one we meet gets Alphabet
2. HORSE ARCHERS--With or Without Police State
We build enough Horse Archers to capture Mansa's Cities and some of his Workers, with or without Police State
3. REPRESENTATION
When we get our Great Person, we seriously consider running a Golden Age with Representation


Now, to expand upon some of those ideas:
2. By going to war now, we secure:
a) Enough City Capture Gold to self-tech Alphabet. That will minimally translate into Iron Working + Code of Laws for Rathauses. No matter what we do next (tech deeply, spam units, whatever) we want both of those techs quite soon
b) We secure access to the west by gaining a westside coastal City. Regardless of whether we can go south, we really need to see what's going on with the rest of the map, so that we can stop guessing about Paratroopers... if we KNOW that we will need Paratroopers, we'll be able to unite our decisions along that path. Until we know, it's just guesswork. From the looks of it, we can't build our own Coastal City except perhaps in the far north-west along the top edge of the map, and even if we do send a Settler there, Mansa may beat us to that location... and it would be far better to just take his capital and build a City there that shares one of his capital's Pig Resources, which means a MUCH FASTER Galley
c) Additional Workers, which are going to be desperately needed as soon as we get Iron Working

3. Whether we go for Representation in the long run or just in the short run, it can be useful. For example, in the long run, it gives us more Happiness and stronger Specialists. In the short run, what it can do is help us to grow our Cities beyond their non-Representation Happiness cap, at which point we can strongly consider switching into Police State at the end of the Golden Age and 2-pop-whipping War Elephants and 2-pop-whipping Horse Archers from multiple Cities, dumping overflow Hammers into Catapults. Or, we just stick it out in Representation, depending upon whether we have been able to reach an AI to the south and what its tech level and army size is like.

1. As I said, every AI will know Iron Working. So, rather than duplicating research AND also risking not being able to trade a lot, we can just as easily go for Alphabet and trade it as a partially-researched tech if the opportunity arises, otherwise, as the only player to know Alphabet, we'll still be able to make the trades that we need to make


2. Since we can go into Representation when we launch our Golden Age, the decision to revolt to Police State now for 1 turn of Anarchy only comes down to "will we gain more Hammers (which could also be thought of as "will we need to whip less population points" and thus have more remaining population points for hiring Specialists sooner) by revolting and taking 1 turn of Anarchy compared to not going into Anarchy?" My gut instinct says that we will gain more by switching to Police State, especially given that our Commerce level doesn't earn us a lot of Flasks/Gold per turn, but we also could use the test game to be certain. Given that most of our Research on Alphabet will come from City Capture Gold, and afterward, we can rely on getting Code of Laws to help our economy recover, now's the time to "recoup our investment" on Horseback Riding by making enough Horse Archers to take down Mansa. Remember that Horse Archers are BETTER than War Elephants versus Skirmishers, since we can ignore up to 2 First Strikes per Skirmisher AND we can use our fast movement to capture more population points and thus face less whipped Skirmishers. Also, recall that the whole point of going for Horseback Riding was to get enough Capture Gold to get Alphabet within about 3 turns worth of self-teching using that Gold, which sure beats playing peacefully and requiring another 12 or so turns to get Alphabet. There's no way that +3 Commerce per turn from Mansa's Foreign Trade Routes will be better than owning his lands ourselves


4. OXFORD
Okay, let's say that we do go for Oxford. Prague is the place to have an Academy and Bureaucracy and Oxford University. You want all 3 things and thus if we go this route, we definitely want Civil Service before Education. That fact means giving up on an Astronomy Lightbulb, which may actually be what we end up needing instead of Paratroopers... just knowing Astronomy instead of Fascism could end up being the key to Conquest in this game. Right now, we can't know either way. So, there's a risk that by going for a path of deep-teching, we'll actually slow our game down if "the key tech" turns out to be Astronomy.

Also, if it turns out that we CAN reach all AIs with just Galleys, then it could be that Cuirassiers will be the fastest way to win, meaning that Oxford will also be a detour.

So, to me, we need more map info to know as much as possible.

Ideally, we'll be able to send a unit southward and a Spy westward ASAP, to help us figure things out.

So, I see 4 possible approaches that might be needed, only one of which requires Oxford (scenario D]):
A] We can win the game with just Galleys and whatever military units (War Elephants + Cats?) can beat down the AIs, since we can reach all of the AIs
B] We need Astronomy to reach one or more AIs
C] We will have a slow slog of a war by going to war with War Elephants and thus Knights or Cuirassiers could be worth the investment, but otherwise, it's the same as scenario A] where we can reach all AIs already
D] We need Paratroopers, fancy teleportation tricks, or some other crazy means of reaching 1 or more AIs


5. LONGER-TECH TECH PATH OPTIONS which match the above possibilities
A] Alphabet -> Construction -> Engineering -> shut off Research or slowly tech to Cuirassiers
B] Alphabet -> Construction -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Compass -> Optics -> Astronomy
C] Alphabet -> Construction -> Cuirassiers
D] Alphabet -> Construction -> Civil Service -> Education -> later techs to get us up to Paratroopers

Now, you could argue that we could skip Construction, but it seems a waste of our Ivory to not AT LEAST use War Elephants + Cats against a Barb City that likely has Longbowmen/Crossbowmen in it, plus use them against other AIs that we can reach either to the south or to the west past the Barb City.


6. MANSA's USEFULNESS
Mansa will be most useful for some techs, his Cities, and his Workers. We want all 3 of his current Cities. We really have no chance of him getting a Great Prophet for us, so there's no point in letting him keep Djenne, plus owning Djenne = a free Wooden Wonder (i.e. MoM) from all of the Forests there.

It would be great to get his Gems Resource, even if we'll get Iron Working in trade from him soon thereafter, but we will probably actually want a Settler plus his capital to get a Galley in the west by buliding a Settler which shares his capital's Pig.

His capital would be awesome to get.

Now, if he only has 3 Cities when we're ready to declare war, we can't capture all 3 of them.

What I would suggest is leave him with his capital so that while he's entering panic mode of building Skirms, he can be trusted to build himself a Settler from his capital and have enough Skirms to escort the Settler.

So, I would aim to capture Djenne (north of Prague) and his Gems City, plus any Workers which we can obtain by using his Road networks after his Culture disappears from capturing those Cities, then wait until he builds another City before grabbing his capital... which may mean a quick Peace Treaty so that we can trade techs with him if he's dragging his heels on building a Settler.

The alternative option is to let him keep his Gems City and just take Djenne and his capital, but he'll probably take a really long time to build a fourth City this way... which could also be fine... but it means that we'll take a while longer to get +1 Happiness than if we were to just capture his Gems City right away... we'd have to wait for him to talk with us, wait 1 turn for us to stop being his Worst Enemy, and then get Iron Working in trade, then Chop the Jungle on our Gems Resource, and then Mine our Gems Resource.

Overall, I prefer stealing his Gems Resource and leaving his capital for either a second war or for after he spits out a Settler and settles a 4th City, whichever makes the most sense. But, if we don't see the need for the Gems' +1 Happiness right away (say, we'll be switching into Representation partway through the war and the test game shows that Representation will give us enough Happiness without getting the Gems Resource online in the short term), then grabbing his capital makes sense and we can just leave him marginalized in his Gems City.

Playing out the test game for a bit should help us to decide which option is better.


7. RATHAUSES
When should we build them? I'm not sure, but given that we have Confucianism so well widely-spread, I'd say that we'd want to slip into Organized Religion first, then make the call on a City-by-City basis.

A Rathaus will be a longer-term investment, but there should at least be a few of our core Cities, especially those with high Food, in which the investment will be worthwhile.
 
By the way, nice turnset, Mitchum! :cool:

4. Expore both culture bridge options (Island City and Silver Bridge) and plan accordingly.
You mean by Fish City, not Island City, right? Island City has already expanded its Cultural Borders and we can't go any further south there, since it's all Ocean to the south of Island City.


It would be nice to get a Worker or two around Prague to build another Riverside Cottage and to Chop some Forests for Dual Banana City's Granary.


Mansa has started to Chop "our" Forests by Djenne.


GP Farm getting the Pig is huge, as it could easily mean +2 Horse Archers.


It does look like we're not going to be hurting for Happiness, so I'd be okay with aiming to capture Djenne and Mansa's capital, leaving him with his Gems City.


Rice City should work a Coast square for 1 turn to grow 1 turn faster.


It's worthwhile to note that Island City gets FOUR 2-Commerce Trade Routes thanks to The Great Lighthouse. That Wonder was totally a worthwhile investment.


Worker 2 should finish the Farm 1W of NE City before Camping the Ivory. We can afford to temporarily fire the Scientists now that we have Horseback Riding. It will make sense to rehire the Scientists after we're in Representation.


Silver Bridge really needs a Grassland Farm.


We've won enough of the Cultural Battle at Djenne to be able to attack Djenne on the first turn of the war, which means 1 less whipped Skirm and no chance for Mansa to whip Spearmen, yay.


Dual Banana, not having been settled yet, may still go on the originally-planned G Riv Jungle location, to share more Cottages with Prague, if we have a Cultural Bridge to the south... without a Cultural Bridge, settling on the P Riv square could give us one more chance at getting a southerward Cultural Bridge.


To get a Worker going southward, I might do something like send Worker 2 1SW (Ivory-S) and complete the Road, then head westward, leaving Workers 3 and 5 to complete the wet G Banana Farm.
 
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