SGOTM 18 - BadCiv

yeah desert river sounds good to me, idk if that was clear in my previous post.

also what are our choices wrt great wall alternatives?

settler first while working the goldmine, granary first while working either the gold or the marble @ size 2, warrior(s)
 
i'm betting copper will be around since otherwise we are sitting ducks if The Good Doctor decides to send fat bastard our way... might have to be grabbed with a second city though idk.
 
also is my beelining BW first suggestion a good idea?

ahaha i dont know why dont YOU tell ME!!!! :p

also yeah we should move the warrior first i think, but IMO its worth talking about what we want our city to do in the first 30 turns first

everyone agreed warrior NW? will move when i get home from dinner in a few hours unless i hear otherwise, since everyone seemed to agree on that before
 
What are the plans for Fembot? Zigzag towards the capital or out to find the AIs? I'm in favour of sending her metallic curves out to areas unknown. We need to get trade relations going ASAP to restore our diplomatic status, IMHO. :borg:
 
here's what moving the warrior 1NW revealed:

tFMRGfN.jpg


pretty nice. vote is still to settle @ the desert river.

i think the current consensus for the fembot was to explore NE->NE or SE->SE for now, since we lose our capital this turn.
 
I really really like having as much commerce as possible in my capital, especially given that we have hammer tiles set up already, so desert river spot is pretty appetizing. however i also really want to see the rest of the land beyond the hills and i'm not afraid to settle on turn 2. after all, complete kills are required for a reason, right? so my vote is for going up on the plains hill and scoping the territory. if it's really nice we can settle there and if not we can head elsewhere and settle next turn.

also it looks to me like bronzeworking isn't a huge priority atm. there isn't a whole lot of food (wheat plus floods) for whipping, the trees are outside likely cap BFCs, and we have nice hammer tiles set up already. looking over the hills might change things but we might want to head first for writing to get beakers+diplo, then mining+bronzeworking. there is fat bastard to worry about, but he's a ways away and i don't think the AI knows where our settler is so maybe we have some time there? i don't know how much the ai cheats at knowing where your units are, if at all.
 
yeah i was thinking BW might not be a huge priority considering the lack of trees/food but thats the case for pretty much every tech we can research at the moment.

The Wheel: If we settle on the river desert tile, we won't need the wheel until we start building our first settler since all 3 of the resources that will be in our BFC are on river tiles.

Sailing: Goldmember has the GLH already. There isn't a good coastal site visible either so the Moai Statues are mostly useless.

Hunting: Its unlikely we'll have access to Ivory in the capital BFC at all. Even if we did, building a camp isn't going to add any more food which will be much more important than the +2H +1C early on. I don't think we're under any real threat of being attacked within the first 20 or so turns, so enabling Archery is of no value either.

Animal Husbandry: If we end up scouting an unimproved pigs or sheep (maybe also cow?) tile when we settle, this could be an option but like Mine/BW its still not really a huge priority given the wheat/marble/gold.

Mysticism: Gandhi already has Stonehenge so unless we wanted to try founding Hinduism/Buddhism there's no point teching this. Even then, Gandhi has an 80+ beaker head start on us (already has Mysticism) so trying to snag a religion has little if any chance of working.

Mining: Mining on the other hand will enable the +1 happiness from the gold (ps what is the happiness cap on Immortal? like 4 or something?) and also open BW. Yeah we don't have much food but even if we only get 1 or 2 good whips off I still feel like that will be a much bigger boost than almost anything else provided by the other techs (writing is the only exception).

Writing: This will allow us to get our BPT up earlier than if we go the BW route, but the returns we get are still going to be much later than if we go BW. I tried to math out the actual turns but i f'ed it up i think and i didnt take in to account the fact we're going to lose the swingers pad. it may turn out that the returns come sooner than i think or maybe sooner than BW since we have to get mining before BW.

idk... i think the only two real choices are writing and beelining BW. they're both good choices but my initial thought is that the BW route will provide benefits much sooner than the writing route. at a guess I'd say maybe like 15 or so turns? idk. i'll try math it out again later and see what happens.
 
yeah i was thinking BW might not be a huge priority considering the lack of trees/food but thats the case for pretty much every tech we can research at the moment.

The Wheel: If we settle on the river desert tile, we won't need the wheel until we start building our first settler since all 3 of the resources that will be in our BFC are on river tiles.

Sailing: Goldmember has the GLH already. There isn't a good coastal site visible either so the Moai Statues are mostly useless.

Hunting: Its unlikely we'll have access to Ivory in the capital BFC at all. Even if we did, building a camp isn't going to add any more food which will be much more important than the +2H +1C early on. I don't think we're under any real threat of being attacked within the first 20 or so turns, so enabling Archery is of no value either.

Animal Husbandry: If we end up scouting an unimproved pigs or sheep (maybe also cow?) tile when we settle, this could be an option but like Mine/BW its still not really a huge priority given the wheat/marble/gold.

Mysticism: Gandhi already has Stonehenge so unless we wanted to try founding Hinduism/Buddhism there's no point teching this. Even then, Gandhi has an 80+ beaker head start on us (already has Mysticism) so trying to snag a religion has little if any chance of working.

Mining: Mining on the other hand will enable the +1 happiness from the gold (ps what is the happiness cap on Immortal? like 4 or something?) and also open BW. Yeah we don't have much food but even if we only get 1 or 2 good whips off I still feel like that will be a much bigger boost than almost anything else provided by the other techs (writing is the only exception).

Writing: This will allow us to get our BPT up earlier than if we go the BW route, but the returns we get are still going to be much later than if we go BW. I tried to math out the actual turns but i f'ed it up i think and i didnt take in to account the fact we're going to lose the swingers pad. it may turn out that the returns come sooner than i think or maybe sooner than BW since we have to get mining before BW.

idk... i think the only two real choices are writing and beelining BW. they're both good choices but my initial thought is that the BW route will provide benefits much sooner than the writing route. at a guess I'd say maybe like 15 or so turns? idk. i'll try math it out again later and see what happens.

hmmm well, with a goldmine in our capital it would be preferable to not run a pair of scientist specialists there early, especially considering that will pollute the GPP pool's chance of landing a Great Spy. in fact, we might not even want our second specialist to be a scientist either, because you really want to great spies if you're gonna try an early espionage economy (one for the super specialist, and another for scotland yard) although we might want a scientist to bulb philosophy to run early pacifism. we'll have to see. an academy may have to wait, at any rate, and so the library can wait till a second or third city. imo, its not worth getting writing now.

so to me, that leaves the wheel and bronze working as our potential first starting techs. i agree with fippy that we have no urgent desire to whip anything, working such great tiles and being easily able to control our happy cap via the two excellent 0-food tiles. however, it would be great to reveal copper nearby, what with a combat 5 war elephant on the loose and a pissed off genghis khan somewhere else on the map. it might be a good idea to double-whip our first settler; however, if we're going TGW->worker, we have like, 24 turns or something before we'll even start on the damn thing. i'm inclined to go TW -> Mining -> BW so that we'll be able to a.) road out to our first settling spot before the settler is done and b.) double whip the settler, if we want to and c.) know where copper is located in case we're able to settle near it.

happy cap is 4 on imm yeah, 5 in capital though. so it'll be 6/5 with the gold hooked up
 
I really really like having as much commerce as possible in my capital, especially given that we have hammer tiles set up already, so desert river spot is pretty appetizing. however i also really want to see the rest of the land beyond the hills and i'm not afraid to settle on turn 2. after all, complete kills are required for a reason, right? so my vote is for going up on the plains hill and scoping the territory. if it's really nice we can settle there and if not we can head elsewhere and settle next turn.

also it looks to me like bronzeworking isn't a huge priority atm. there isn't a whole lot of food (wheat plus floods) for whipping, the trees are outside likely cap BFCs, and we have nice hammer tiles set up already. looking over the hills might change things but we might want to head first for writing to get beakers+diplo, then mining+bronzeworking. there is fat bastard to worry about, but he's a ways away and i don't think the AI knows where our settler is so maybe we have some time there? i don't know how much the ai cheats at knowing where your units are, if at all.

the AI doesn't cheat like that, no. they'll have to scout out that city first. it cheating enough via extra starting junk + production and tech discounts is more than enough cheats to get it ahead...

as far as settling goes, hmmm I suppose... I'm inclined against it though just because there's so much good stuff in this spot. it seems clear we were meant to settle somewhere around here, even if the exact spot is very debateable. also, even with all the dead tiles, its still a pretty monstrous spot, it will just peak out around lvl 11 or 12. we can always move the capital if we find a better spot somewhere too.

is there anyone else in favor of waiting a turn to settle? if we want to wait a turn, we should move onto the marble this turn I think.
 
We'll be going for philosophy cause of the liberalism race anyway but I'd just suggest we can grab pacifism even before that by building the Golden Pagoda. We'd get +100% construction speed because of gold & industrious and it only needs Aesthetics (which we'd be grabbing on our way to the Great Library) and Meditation (no problem to trade off of Mansa).
 
Mobility won't affect the fact that the settler will have to cross the river, right? So if it goes to the marble it'll be out of movement, or will it still have some remaining? You don't see mobility much in normal Civ 4 and in FFH2 it's the generic +1 movement promo.
 
john s: REALLY GOOD IDEA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :goodjob:

drach: it'll only cost 1 movement to move onto the marble, so we'll have 0.5 movement left over. we could settle on it that turn, but not anywhere else that turn. if we end up moving on it but seeing anything else interesting, I'd switch my vote to settle on it that turn, which I still think is a strong move for the early game even if it doesn't give us as much long term potential. we might need to move our capital anyways because it seems like we'll only be able to work 7-9 cottages at our capital, and while that will still be solid up to lib, it would be weak if we have to work all the way up to modern era techs like the UN.
 
ran some numbers on the marble spot:

marble hill, working gold at size 2, grassland forest at size 3:
prod at size 1: (3+1)*1.5*5 = 6*5 = 30
prod at size 2: (3+1+3)*1.5*7 = 10*7 = 70
prod at size 3: (3+1+3+1)*1.5*4 = 12 * 4 = 60
@ turn 16: great wall + 10 overflow
@ turn 19: 153 commerce from tiles, 12 food in the bin @ size 3
4 turn faster worker b/c of large overflow

marble hill, working gold at size 2, grassland forest at size 3, then growing to size 4:
prod at size 1: (3+1)*1.5*5 = 6*5 = 30
prod at size 2: (3+1+3)*1.5*7 = 10*7 = 70
prod at size 3: (3+1+3+1)*1.5*4 = 12 * 4 = 60
@ turn 16: great wall + 10 overflow
@ turn 19: 153 commerce from tiles, 12 food in the bin @ size 3
4 turn faster worker b/c of large overflow

marble hill, working floodplain till size 3, then switching to gold + grassland forest
prod to size 3: (3+1)*1.5*9 = 6*9 = 56
prod after: (3+1+3+1)*1.5*8 = 12*8 = 96
@ turn 17: great wall + 2 overflow
@ turn 18: size 4!
@ turn 19: 124 commerce from tiles, 0 food in the bin @ size 4
@ turn 24: worker (same as baseline)

marble hill, working floodplain till size 3, then switching to two grassland forest till size 4, then switching to goldmine + forest+floodplain
prod to size 3: (3+1)*1.5*9 = 6*9 = 56
prod to size 4: (3+1+1+1)*1.5*5 = 9*5 = 45
prod at size 4: (3+1+1+3)*1.5*8 = 12*3 = 36
prod at size 4: (3+1+1+3+1)*1.5*8 = 13 = 13
@ turn 14: size 4
@ turn 18: great wall + 0 overflow
@ turn 23: worker (1 turns faster than baseline)
@ turn 19: 86 commerce from tiles, 21 food in the bin @ size 4
1 turn faster worker

the marble spot is maybe a little better than I originally gave it credit for. all of these enable a much more rushed start than the other two spots, despite the worse long term potential. we'll be able to get our worker out faster, and, more importantly, get a second settler out faster too by using slavery to do a 2-pop whip at size 4. the last micromangement will even let us instantly grow back to size 3 after the whip, although it sacrifices a lot on commerce. (about a mining's worth of commerce).

so if we want to move on the marble and look around, i'd be ok with that.
 
also worth talking about is what mid-term tech goal we have. i can see 3:

1.) aesthetics for a possible alphabet trade with mansa + shwedagon paya + parthenon + onwards to literature
2.) alphabet, since no tech brokering is on we should hopefully get a lot of mileage out of this
3.) monarchy, to share HR with joao
4.) construction, if we want to rush someone

CoL will be important too, to run caste during pacifism, but it won't be any good without aesthetics first. we dont have to decide this right now, although beelining alphabet right out of the gate could be possible by just going writing->alpahabet.
 
Is the plan to focus espionage on Dr. Evil? I think that makes more sense then spreading it around but I'm not sure. I can't check the save myself now but it would be cool to know how long until we get visibility on his cities.

If so should just make sure to direct all espionage on him before ending the turn since we get a few points from the Palace before the Swinger's Pad gets razed.
 
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