RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
It's possible at any time to lose a Spy in enemy territory. However, the chances are quite small and the information gained is very valuable. I'm for the Spy scout.
SGOTM 18 - The Shawshank Redemption
- Thread starter AlanH
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Dhoomstriker
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We can ask an AI to make Peace with Goldmember. The option is available for Mansa. We SHOULD also be able to ask said AI to redeclare war on Goldmember... that's how it works in the RFC Mod.
Mitchum
Deity
Hmmm... in the test game, I was able to get Mansa to make peace with GM...
RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
We can lose some hammers on the spy, but it doesn't matter. We can arrange for a second spy to get into Evil's territory and scout ahead of our SoD. The info is important and the cost is pretty low.
RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
If they are at War, shouldn't the Dhoom less Wonder probability already be in place?
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, I can't magic units out of thin air. Do we want a Spy or a Copper-Pillaging Party for Joao to come out first?
EDIT: Forges before both of the above, right?
EDIT: Forges before both of the above, right?
Mitchum
Deity
OK. Now you're changing your argument. Are you now in agreement that it's not our EP spending relative to that of an AI? Also, what are the odds of a spy getting caught? I think it's less than 5% per turn but that's a brown number. I'll take those odds if we can use the spy to scout the map, check out the Pad, find Fat Bastard, locate Gandhi, give our troops advancing on Joao an advanced warning of what's coming, etc.
Why are you so against using spies? We used them in SGOTM-17 and could not have come close to getting second place without them. We listened to you in the SGOTM I referenced above and it hurt us big time (EDIT: didn't mean to jab quite that hard...
). PD and Kaku both used spies to the max and they got first and second.I think spies are like Monarchy for you. For a long time, you were dead set against learning Monarchy, even if we could get it for free, because you were worried about an AI piggybacking on us knowing the tech to save a handful of beakers while researching it themselves and possibly speeding up Feudalism by a single turn or two. I've seen many great players, DW included, who often get Monarchy very early even if they don't have wine for the benefit of Heredity Rule.
So it is my opinion that some of your beliefs are either holding your back or contrary to what other top teams/players do. I'm sure that I have several beliefs that are doing the same thing to me. But in this case, I think building a spy will help us, not force us to waste the 40H you're so concerned about.
Can someone code dive to figure out the odds of a spy getting caught and what the parameters are that affect it (i.e. total EP spending vs. specific EP spending, OB or not, etc.)?
EDIT: Does our lower EP spending increase the odds of a spy getting caught from 2.5% to 2.6%? Or does it go from 20% to 25%? I have no clue. But I'd like to know.
EDIT: multiple xpost
Dhoomstriker
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Also, do we want to build a Jewish Missionary after the Forge in Pig City or shall we just hope that Mansa's Jewish Missionary made it unscathed to the east side of Joao's Cultural Borders and won't die on the way to one of our Cities?
Mitchum
Deity
Yes, forges in Pigs and Cap before units.
My exact comment was: "Should we build a spy to go check out Swinger's Pad before we get there? I think yes, but I'm not sure when we can squeeze one in..."
So my suggestion is to go forges, pillaging units, 2 spies (while waiting for HBR to finish). Unfortunately, I can' magic units out of thin air either nor was I asking you to do so.
Dhoomstriker
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Sure, if I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong.
I absolutely love Spies in neutral territory. They can be game-breaking at times. It sucks when you're relying on a Spy and it dies in enemy territory.
So, the point that I was driving at was not "do not build Spies" but instead "we should probably think about spending some of our Commerce on EPs at some point in the future if we want to use Spies effectively in enemy territory."
EDIT: If we want to steal Math from Joao (it's highest on his list, so he'll tech it eventually), for example, we'll want to spend some Commerce on EPs anyway.
Mitchum
Deity
I don't think it's fair to hope a Jewish missionary will make it to us from Mansa. I'm fine building one or two. Can you magic them out of thin air?
BTW, I'm running my Myth-Busters test on asking an AI to attack a city. I'm fine asking Mansa to attack Guimaraes to continue the set. I'll report back when I'm done.
Dhoomstriker
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Can I ask Mansa to attack one of Joao's Cities and advance the turn or does someone (Mitchum) want to do some testing first?
EDIT: Cross-posted with the answer that I needed. Thanks.
EDIT: Cross-posted with the answer that I needed. Thanks.
Dhoomstriker
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By the way, there is a suspicious-looking River to the west of Mansa's capital that goes through a set of Peaks. Mansa's area looks like it is designed for him to not REX too much so that he can keep a compact empire with strong Cities and become a tech powerhouse, but without becoming an unstoppable behemoth.
Dhoomstriker
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T57, 1720 BC
I pressed Print Screen a lot and it lagged my computer. I'm not sure where the screenshots get saved, but it doesn't matter since the lag let me see where Genghis' units moved (and plus his units are still in view).
His Archer by Corn City went 1SW G (Road), which, when following our Road, is one turn away from landing on the GH Riv (Road) that is 1W of Corn City itself.
His Archer by his Worker on the Copper moved 1SE to the square 1E of the Copper.
Genghis' Worker will complete the Road on the Copper Resource next turn (unless someone speaks up and asks us to steal said Worker).
On the plus side, Genghis' Archer would have to attack our Warrior across of a River while defending on a Hills square, and we'd at most lose 1 Warrior... but Corn City would likely see an Archer breathing down it's neck.
I can move Worker 4 at Corn City to either the G Fur For, to get it improved quicker or can move to Chop a Forest a bit faster.
If we're at all considering stealing Genghis' Worker over the next couple of turns, I should move to the Forest (1SE of Corn City) to Chop it first.
We finish the Corn Farm and the Horse Pasture. We are 1 turn away from completing Cap's last FP Cottage.
Any thoughts on what to do with the Spearman? It will likely cost us in Unit Supply by sending it toward Joao, but if he has a Chariot, we'll probably be very happy to have had said Spearman on hand. So, I'm planning to send it toward Joao's area (but not into his Cultural Borders yet... just in the Jungle between Joao and us) unless someone suggests otherwise.
The 2 Archers at Joao will group-up, again, unless someone suggests otherwise.
I'm going to send our Cap-built Archer to park its butt in Gold City. It's relatively useless to "block" the "backdoor" passage to Genghis if we're not at war with Genghis, as, if he declares war on us, he won't do it until he has walked up to our Cultural Borders, so we might as well save on Unit Supply costs for now.
I pressed Print Screen a lot and it lagged my computer. I'm not sure where the screenshots get saved, but it doesn't matter since the lag let me see where Genghis' units moved (and plus his units are still in view).
His Archer by Corn City went 1SW G (Road), which, when following our Road, is one turn away from landing on the GH Riv (Road) that is 1W of Corn City itself.
His Archer by his Worker on the Copper moved 1SE to the square 1E of the Copper.
Genghis' Worker will complete the Road on the Copper Resource next turn (unless someone speaks up and asks us to steal said Worker).
On the plus side, Genghis' Archer would have to attack our Warrior across of a River while defending on a Hills square, and we'd at most lose 1 Warrior... but Corn City would likely see an Archer breathing down it's neck.
I can move Worker 4 at Corn City to either the G Fur For, to get it improved quicker or can move to Chop a Forest a bit faster.
If we're at all considering stealing Genghis' Worker over the next couple of turns, I should move to the Forest (1SE of Corn City) to Chop it first.
We finish the Corn Farm and the Horse Pasture. We are 1 turn away from completing Cap's last FP Cottage.
Any thoughts on what to do with the Spearman? It will likely cost us in Unit Supply by sending it toward Joao, but if he has a Chariot, we'll probably be very happy to have had said Spearman on hand. So, I'm planning to send it toward Joao's area (but not into his Cultural Borders yet... just in the Jungle between Joao and us) unless someone suggests otherwise.
The 2 Archers at Joao will group-up, again, unless someone suggests otherwise.
I'm going to send our Cap-built Archer to park its butt in Gold City. It's relatively useless to "block" the "backdoor" passage to Genghis if we're not at war with Genghis, as, if he declares war on us, he won't do it until he has walked up to our Cultural Borders, so we might as well save on Unit Supply costs for now.
Mitchum
Deity
Myth: AI units, when told where to attack, beeline said city and get confused, possibly even getting blocked by peaks
I set up a test where I gave Mansa 3 swords, 3 axes and 3 chariots as shown in the screen shot. I asked him to attack Swinger's Pad every turn. Observations:
1. On the first turn, Mansa moved 7 of the 9 units toward his capital and the other 2 units south.
2. The two units successfully routed south through the gap and then back north and attacked Swinger's Pad. I asked them to do so every turn.
3. In intervals, Mansa sent units out of his capital. Those units went due east through the gap and then made an abrupt turn north and beelined Swinger's Pad as asked.
4. If, prior to getting close to Swinger's Pad, I asked him to attack Nobamba instead (Dr. Evil's city to the east), any units on their way to the Pad turned and headed toward Nobamba instead.
Dhoom's Myth? BUSTED!!! The AI is smarter than Dhoom gives them credit for. When asking them to attack a city, they can successfully navigate their way there without blindly getting stuck behind peaks. The AI does truely know its a$$ from a hole in the peaks!!
I suggest that after this turn, you ask Mansa to attack Lisbon every turn.
I set up a test where I gave Mansa 3 swords, 3 axes and 3 chariots as shown in the screen shot. I asked him to attack Swinger's Pad every turn. Observations:
1. On the first turn, Mansa moved 7 of the 9 units toward his capital and the other 2 units south.
2. The two units successfully routed south through the gap and then back north and attacked Swinger's Pad. I asked them to do so every turn.
3. In intervals, Mansa sent units out of his capital. Those units went due east through the gap and then made an abrupt turn north and beelined Swinger's Pad as asked.
4. If, prior to getting close to Swinger's Pad, I asked him to attack Nobamba instead (Dr. Evil's city to the east), any units on their way to the Pad turned and headed toward Nobamba instead.
Spoiler :
Dhoom's Myth? BUSTED!!! The AI is smarter than Dhoom gives them credit for. When asking them to attack a city, they can successfully navigate their way there without blindly getting stuck behind peaks. The AI does truely know its a$$ from a hole in the peaks!!
I suggest that after this turn, you ask Mansa to attack Lisbon every turn.
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Dhoomstriker
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Now that the Horse Pasture is done, I'm thinking of Mining another GH Riv square at Pig City. The City will grow to Size 5 and will complete the Forge in 5 turns' time.
Another option could be to Farm a G Riv square and get more whipping in.
A third option could be to Chop some trees, but then we'd grow into working an unimproved square... or, we could just temporarily 1-pop-whip away the citizen working the GH Riv Mine when we're about to grow to Size 5 (whipping from Size 4 to 3 and then regrowing back to Size 4 on the following turn)... with that bit of 1-pop-whipping, we'd get more short-term Hammers by being able to focus on Chopping.
Pig City might also steal the Wheat on a random turn, allowing the City to grow quicker anyway. We could also plan to 2-pop-whip the Forge if people prefer.
I plan to 2-pop-whip Cap's Forge next turn, so that we don't grow into Unhappiness.
Fish City will grow to Size 2 next turn and can start working the Copper Mine.
Mansa hasn't moved any of the units in his capital, so I'll ask him to attack Lisbon instead this turn. He now has a Jewish Missionary in his capital as well as the 2 Skirms plus the Axeman.
Another option could be to Farm a G Riv square and get more whipping in.
A third option could be to Chop some trees, but then we'd grow into working an unimproved square... or, we could just temporarily 1-pop-whip away the citizen working the GH Riv Mine when we're about to grow to Size 5 (whipping from Size 4 to 3 and then regrowing back to Size 4 on the following turn)... with that bit of 1-pop-whipping, we'd get more short-term Hammers by being able to focus on Chopping.
Pig City might also steal the Wheat on a random turn, allowing the City to grow quicker anyway. We could also plan to 2-pop-whip the Forge if people prefer.
I plan to 2-pop-whip Cap's Forge next turn, so that we don't grow into Unhappiness.
Fish City will grow to Size 2 next turn and can start working the Copper Mine.
Mansa hasn't moved any of the units in his capital, so I'll ask him to attack Lisbon instead this turn. He now has a Jewish Missionary in his capital as well as the 2 Skirms plus the Axeman.
Mitchum
Deity
No need to waste the archer in Gold, a city that won't need an MP unit for a LONG time. I'd rather send that archer toward either Joao or Genghis. If Genghis attacks from the back door, we should have some warning right? Even with warning, would one archer in Gold stop him?
Send the spear toward the gap in our peaks toward Joao but keep him within our cultural borders for now. I suggest that we assemble our pillaging stack first and them send them all out together.
I vote "NO" on the worker steal at GK. At least for now. Once we have an archer in Corn and get to the point where we can emergency whip another unit (or close to it (i.e. the turn before growing to 2 pops), then I might change my answer.
Send the spear toward the gap in our peaks toward Joao but keep him within our cultural borders for now. I suggest that we assemble our pillaging stack first and them send them all out together.
I vote "NO" on the worker steal at GK. At least for now. Once we have an archer in Corn and get to the point where we can emergency whip another unit (or close to it (i.e. the turn before growing to 2 pops), then I might change my answer.
Mitchum
Deity
If we need an improvement in Pig, what about finishing that partial G cottage? I'm not a fan of one-popping anything because that action is happiness neutral (i.e. +1 
for whipping and -1 for dropping one pop) and happiness becomes an issue much faster.
I'm fine slow building Pigs forge and then 2-popping units out of there. Although with a forge, it's hard to 2-pop any of the units we can currently build since 1 pop = 37H.
for whipping and -1 for dropping one pop) and happiness becomes an issue much faster.I'm fine slow building Pigs forge and then 2-popping units out of there. Although with a forge, it's hard to 2-pop any of the units we can currently build since 1 pop = 37H.
Dhoomstriker
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I'm not really sure that your test is complete.
If the units already started "blocked" in the north-east corner of their starting area, they had nowhere else to go but back south.
However, I'd be more interested in a map with Peaks similar to the ones between Mansa and Joao... put the units inside of Djenne... then have Mansa attack Opporto. Give us a "real world" scenario and make sure that we have this kind of flexibility in the "real world" (aka our game world in the real game).
Here's a view of the area around Djenne:
Well, do we plan to steal another Worker from Genghis soon or not?
If not, then do we at least plan to declare war on him after his Archers have left the area in order to Pillage his Copper with our Warriors?
If either is possible in the next 5 turns or so, it's not a bad idea to have a unit in Gold City.
Perhaps you wish to "trade" one Archer for the Spearman in our "advance" mini-stack? The Archer that retreats can either be stuffed inside of Corn City to make the City very strong (2 Hilltop Archers) or can form part of our Joao-Copper-Pillaging stack that assembles within our Cultural Borders.
I think that I'd feel happier with our Spearman on the front lines, given that it's going to be Chariots which are the most likely unit to "surprise" our mini-stack near Joao with an unexpected attack.
If the units already started "blocked" in the north-east corner of their starting area, they had nowhere else to go but back south.
However, I'd be more interested in a map with Peaks similar to the ones between Mansa and Joao... put the units inside of Djenne... then have Mansa attack Opporto. Give us a "real world" scenario and make sure that we have this kind of flexibility in the "real world" (aka our game world in the real game).
Here's a view of the area around Djenne:
Spoiler :
Well, do we plan to steal another Worker from Genghis soon or not?
If not, then do we at least plan to declare war on him after his Archers have left the area in order to Pillage his Copper with our Warriors?
If either is possible in the next 5 turns or so, it's not a bad idea to have a unit in Gold City.
Perhaps you wish to "trade" one Archer for the Spearman in our "advance" mini-stack? The Archer that retreats can either be stuffed inside of Corn City to make the City very strong (2 Hilltop Archers) or can form part of our Joao-Copper-Pillaging stack that assembles within our Cultural Borders.
I think that I'd feel happier with our Spearman on the front lines, given that it's going to be Chariots which are the most likely unit to "surprise" our mini-stack near Joao with an unexpected attack.
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Mitchum
Deity
@ Dhoom
In my mind, your myth has been busted. 7 of the units went back to his capital. Upon leaving there, rather than beelining the Pad and getting stuck in the corner, the headed due east and then north once they got through the gap.
The test game doesn't have to match 100% the real game. I feel that the test game provided a scenario similar enough that we can draw conclusions.
In my opinion, if you want to ask Mansa to attack Guimaraes instead of Lisbon, it is up to you to prove that the AI is really that dumb... because I don't think it is AND I feel that I proved otherwise already.
Regarding GK, yes, I'd like to keep the option open of stealing another worker and/or pillaging the copper although I don't think we can do so just yet.
I'm not sure what you mean about "trading" a spear for an archer. Are you suggesting that we send our current spear to Corn and the archer you were going to sit in Gold to Joao? Or something else?
In any event, I do want a spear in our pillaging party for Joao. The success of that mission trumps the games we're playing with GK right now.
In my mind, your myth has been busted. 7 of the units went back to his capital. Upon leaving there, rather than beelining the Pad and getting stuck in the corner, the headed due east and then north once they got through the gap.
The test game doesn't have to match 100% the real game. I feel that the test game provided a scenario similar enough that we can draw conclusions.
In my opinion, if you want to ask Mansa to attack Guimaraes instead of Lisbon, it is up to you to prove that the AI is really that dumb... because I don't think it is AND I feel that I proved otherwise already.
Regarding GK, yes, I'd like to keep the option open of stealing another worker and/or pillaging the copper although I don't think we can do so just yet.
I'm not sure what you mean about "trading" a spear for an archer. Are you suggesting that we send our current spear to Corn and the archer you were going to sit in Gold to Joao? Or something else?
In any event, I do want a spear in our pillaging party for Joao. The success of that mission trumps the games we're playing with GK right now.
