SGOTM 19 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

So its been 2 days since I posted my PPP. Here is what I can glean from the posts so far.

1. This turn, trade Curr to Nappy for PH and Mono. He has no gold but the most we could get is 50 gold from HRE and they already have a tech lead.

Enkage is okay with this so long as we use it as a step to Monarchy. Nobody else cares.

2. This turn, gift clams to toku for 10 turns

No comments.

3. Whip lib in Trumpsterdam into Market, then switch to wealth without finishing the market yet

LoR wants to grow Trumpsterdam as fast as possible so I assume no whip is approved.

4. Trumptrecht, 4 archers for defense in other cities then a Lib

No comments.

5. THague, finish granary then wealth

No comments.

6. Const, whip monastary, overflow into barracks. Finish barracks then market

No comments.

7. Theslonica, Finish monument then wealth

No comments.

8. Adron, Slow build Lib then Temple of Artemis for fail gold (we already have marble)

No comments.

9. Stone builds monument, then granary

LoR agrees that the Monument is needed quickly

10. Next turn, trade curr to Alex for Monarchy and gold.

Again EnKage agrees with this.

11. Switch to HR and OR.

No comments.

12. Gspy heads to check out Toku

LoR can see that the GSpy is north of Trumpsterdam, I plan to send him directly to Toku

13. Scout heads mostly SE to check out that area.

No comments.

14. Tech Aesthetics. This seems to be the majority choice. Personally I think CoL for CHs but I can go with the teams choice. Stay at 0% until we have some gold and can run a few turns at 100%

This has the most discussion but no answers. EnKage and LoR like Aesthetics, Pigswill alludes to an agreement on this tech also. BLubmuz likes Construction, UT likes CoL.

15. Workers. Send another to Stone. Road stone so that it is ready to be hooked to rest of empire as soon as borders pop.

No comments.

I can use some suggestions for the other workers. I have never been great at micro managing worker turns and end up with a mishmash of improvements around cities. So what do you suggest building around each cities? What chops etc?

LoR wants 3 more riverside cottages in Trumpsterdam.

My thoughts are cottages around Thesslonica, Farm the sugars north of capital, Road to stone by stonecity.


So based on this, I really don't know what to do with the feedback. If I assume that all the topics that have received no comment are marks of approval, that the majority vote for Aesthetics determines our tech direction even though we will be at 0% for at least the first half of my TS and that worker turns are at my discretion so long as I build some riverside cottages, then I can play tomorrow (Wednesday) or Thursday night

 

[LincolnOfRome]

When he's got LB and Samurais? ... Where? Constantinople or Kyoto, depends by how good the latter is, but i presume the choice will be Kyoto

Yes, Unrestricted Leaders are confusing. If he gets his UU, they will be Drill III, CG I, C1 Oromo Warriors in Aksum.

We can build Pyramids and ToA for failgold now without teching anything. I'd actually love to build the Pyramids. Thinking about the game. We aren't working any commerce. We could probably squeeze another 20 commerce out per turn by working water tiles and cottages. Our economy isn't sunk.

Toku has four cities. Two are newly built and the one we see doesn't even have defenders. Yes, I saw the barb archer. Too bad Asoka's archer looks like he might protect it from the barb archer.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

My last post was a cross-post meaant for BLubmuz.

@UT: I suppose we should comment on your PPP more specifically, so I'll comment on your comment.

1. This turn, trade Curr to Nappy for PH and Mono. He has no gold but the most we could get is 50 gold from HRE and they already have a tech lead.
2. This turn, gift clams to toku for 10 turns

Both fine.

3. Whip lib in Trumpsterdam into Market, then switch to wealth without finishing the market yet

LoR wants to grow Trumpsterdam as fast as possible so I assume no whip is approved.

We will get a great person in Trumpsterdam about 23-25 turns after we work two specialists. GM's next two bulbable techs are MC and CoL. A GS will bulb Compass. Although Compass will be tradeable to AI's, MC might be more useful and worth waiting a few turns. The extra gold may be better in the long run. Could we test both scenarios and see how long the extra whip delays us on the practice map? Would it make us go broke? Could we delay archers? I also noticed that a lot of commercial tiles are not being worked and Trumpsterdam really needs riverside cottages built.

4. Trumptrecht, 4 archers for defense in other cities then a Lib
5. THague, finish granary then wealth
6. Const, whip monastary, overflow into barracks. Finish barracks then market

I'd like to build a Pyramids for failgold in either TrumpHague or Trumprecht. Trumpsterdam can build wealth and work merchants after market (and cottages). Well, not really for failgold. Pyramids are a great wonder. If we are able to get them, I'd be pleased. I'd like Constantinople to work great people as soon as possible.

7. Theslonica, Finish monument then wealth
8. Adron, Slow build Lib then Temple of Artemis for fail gold (we already have marble)
9. Stone builds monument, then granary
LoR agrees that the Monument is needed quickly
10. Next turn, trade curr to Alex for Monarchy and gold.
Again EnKage agrees with this.
11. Switch to HR and OR.
12. Gspy heads to check out Toku
LoR can see that the GSpy is north of Trumpsterdam, I plan to send him directly to Toku

Yes to all this! Twelve espionage points (Great Spy) is powerful at this point of the game. If it were up to me, I'd settle him right away. If no one wants to settle him now, then let him explore Toku's land--then settle in Trumpsterdam.

13. Scout heads mostly SE to check out that area.
14. Tech Aesthetics. This seems to be the majority choice. Personally I think CoL for CHs but I can go with the teams choice. Stay at 0% until we have some gold and can run a few turns at 100%
This has the most discussion but no answers. EnKage and LoR like Aesthetics, Pigswill alludes to an agreement on this tech also. BLubmuz likes Construction, UT likes CoL.

I'm open to construction as well. I'd like to use Great Merchants to bulb MC and CoL in the next 35-45 turns so we need to work 2 merchants in Trumpsterdam and 2 in Constantinople. If we trade for CoL, the GM can bulb CS.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

I hope this all isn't too basic for you--

I don't think we can have any decent discussion about what to tech without discussing specialists and what kind of Great People we want to produce. A merchant specialist will produce about 3.75 gold each with a market and 3 GPP toward a Great Merchant. The Great Wall produces 2 GPP toward a great spy. It will take 200 GPP to produce the next Great Person. 2 GPP (Great Spy) + 2 * 3 GPP (Great Merchant) = 8 GPP (75% Great Merchant, 25% Great Spy). 200 GPP / 8 GPP = 25 turns. In Trumpsterdam, a great person will appear in 25 turns.

Instead of two merchant specialists, we may want to work scientists. Then we will most likely get a great scientist. If he is a Great Merchant, we will get Metal Casting. If he is a Great Scientist, we will get Compass.

But there will still be a 1 in 4 chance the Great Person will be a Great Spy. If he is a Great Spy, we should use him to build Scotland Yard in Trumpsterdam. This will double the espionage points of the city. A settled Great Spy produces 12 ep and 3 beakers. A palace produces 4 ep. With Scotland Yard, Trumpsterdam will produce 32 ep. Anyway 32 ep is worth about 40-50 beakers per turn (as far as stealing techs). In other words, Trumpsterdam could build enough points to steal HBR in about 8 turns. You can also use spies to do fun stuff like destroying barracks, walls, and granaries, and making a city revolt.

You can also spy bomb a civ (kind of like a GA bomb). This gives you 3000 ep to use on another civ. You can steal a lot of technology with 3000 ep. The target cities all become bright and we can tell what they are producing in each city. By the way, 3000 ep can steal about 4000 beakers worth of techs. A Great Scientist can only bulb 1500 + 3*population beakers. The disadvantage of spies is that you have to spend hammers building spies to get that extra value. Also, if you destroy a civ before you spend all the ep's you put on them, you lose them.

 

[enKage]

I prefer market in Trumptrecht rather than capitol (possibly both). Trumprecht market before library, GM bulb path is more useful for us and with so much food whipping a market and slowbuild library (we dont need libraries when we work 0% science).

I like settling GSpy after spying tokus land, but knowing his land is a priority for us.

Stealing pigs from Comstantinople is impossinble (HolyCity + Monastery + library somewhen).

We should decide if Kublai is worth spying on or start accumulating esp points on obvious tech leader here - Huayna for final stage mass tech stealing.

I like working simultanpusly merchants in Trumpsterdam, Trumptrecht and Constantinople, so we should get 3 GM for quick bulb sequence: MC, CoL, CS or Paper in case we get one of this techs earlier. After each GM produced, turn into scientists to open Lib race. After first bulb (or trade for) of CoL, we can switch to caste for some time to make them apper really fast (Constantinople, Trumptrecht, possibly Hague will shine!)

Do we have any updated test environment ? If yes I can test that way.

I propose not playing yet until this solutions are tested.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Summary of my Great People Plan:
Build a Market in Trumpsterdam and Constantinople by Turn 85.
Work two merchants in each city.
First Great Merchant will pop in turn 109 (150 BC) - Bulb Metal Casting
Steal, trade for, beg or tech CoL
Second Great Merchant will pop turn 135 (500 AD) - Bulb Civil Service

Too late for Civil Service? By 500 AD our GP farm should be up.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

I prefer market in Trumptrecht rather than capitol (possibly both). Trumprecht market before library, GM bulb path is more useful for us and with so much food whipping a market and slowbuild library (we dont need libraries when we work 0% science).

I want to make a go for Pyramids in good production city. If we fail, the failgold will be good. TrumpHague might be fine for failgold/Pyramids venture. Imagine a period of Caste/Pacifism/Republic began and ended with a Golden Age, because of the extra GPP's we are able to produce. We could also use this period to go from being behind to a tech lead.

I like the idea of building ToA in another city, but I don't want to actually complete it. We do need to prepare Trumprecht to become GP farm. If running slavery, we need market/library in Trumprecht.

I like settling GSpy after spying tokus land, but knowing his land is a priority for us.

Yes, I understand. I'm fine with that.

Stealing pigs from Comstantinople is impossinble (HolyCity + Monastery + library somewhen).

Sometime culture acts crazy in recently captured cities. Mostly I was disappointed with how Tokugawa so quickly settled Yeha. I have issues with that kind of thing. I used to quit or replay my games every time every time an AI settled where I didn't want him to. Lately, I'm getting over that as I enjoy raising the cities of anyone that crosses me.

We should decide if Kublai is worth spying on or start accumulating esp points on obvious tech leader here - Huayna for final stage mass tech stealing.

I think we should wreak havoc with our nearest enemies first. I want Toku to suffer-destroy his buildings, steal his techs, and poison his cities. EP's are less effective on distant civs.

I like working simultanpusly merchants in Trumpsterdam, Trumptrecht and Constantinople, so we should get 3 GM for quick bulb sequence: MC, CoL, CS or Paper in case we get one of this techs earlier. After each GM produced, turn into scientists to open Lib race. After first bulb (or trade for) of CoL, we can switch to caste for some time to make them apper really fast (Constantinople, Trumptrecht, possibly Hague will shine!)

I like your ideas. These cities can still be productive even running a couple of specialists. The timelines on my previous post could be much faster if we run Pacifism. We could bulb Philo with a Great Scientist any time after we acquire CoL.

Do we have any updated test environment ? If yes I can test that way.

The closest map we have is the test map I created after I completed after my turn set. That should be close enough to test our economy, but not much use for diplomacy. I think I would have to completely remake the map now that we know all the civs we are facing.

I propose not playing yet until this solutions are tested.

Yes, absolutely. We have time.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

@UT, I agree with enKage about slowing down here and really examining our current situation. With a little testing, imagination, and practice, I think we can figure out some great things.

 

[enKage]

The earliest I can prepare testing environment would be early weekend (friday? sat?), so if You have time earlier, go on.

I can make test earlier on former made map, with other diplo situation (that means I could get CoL from trades, what possibly will not work in real game

 

[enKage]

I made a quick careless test on one of earliest test saves, CivilService 75 BC

BUT
we need golden age.

1st great merchant turn 100 or so, without GA next one will go in 35 turns if we keep 2 merchants (to avoid scientist pollution).
The problem is MC is bulbed BEFORE CoL, so we will have to get it somehow (MC or CoL instead of esthetics after we accumulate some gold?)

Anyway, waiting 35 turns for 2nd bulb is huge. If we bulb CoL then running GA with great merchant or great spy allows 2nd great person in 6 turns or so (did I mention I love Trumptrecht ?), so we could bulb CS before GAge ends and switch to beauro (and stay caste or back to slavery). Next great merchant (for paper) comes in few turns also. Because we run scientists also in other cities, there will be also some points accumulated into GScientists.


Because that save differs a lot from current situation, proper testing environment is NECESSAIRY!

If we go for CoL first maybe even earlier dates are possible. (Sorry GSpy, GAge is your mission)

 

[pigswill]

There's three proposals for the way forwards as far as I can see:

i) Construction now, cataxe war (?elepult if next tech is HbR) v Toku asap.
ii) Aesth>lit>construction, Glib, failgold, cataxe/elepult v Toku a bit later.
iii) Aesthetix>lit>music, lib>miltrad, cuir rush Toku quite a bit later.

I'm the only one proposing option iii) at the moment. We all have our reasons for promoting our preferred strategy so maybe we just test and see where we are by 1ad.

The first month will be up on March 7 which still leaves two months to complete the game so we have enough time for testing.

 

[unclethrill]

I agree that we should be in no hurry at this point. As soon as we get an updated test, I'll be glad to run more tests too but building one myself is not an option right now

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Is this the proper way to make an updated test?
1) Start an immortal game with the same unrestricted sets as the real one.
2) Open the save, edit the starting technologies, move the starting units, and edit the map with all current geographical knowledge.
3) Run my turn set exactly as it was done, followed by enKage, then by BLubmuz. AI technologies will have to edited along the way, so same tech trades can take place.
4) Edit the cities and units to current known positions.

Update the map as more is revealed.

Does this sound right? If so, the map really should be a team effort.

 

[enKage]

There's three proposals for the way forwards as far as I can see:

i) Construction now, cataxe war (?elepult if next tech is HbR) v Toku asap.
ii) Aesth>lit>construction, Glib, failgold, cataxe/elepult v Toku a bit later.
iii) Aesthetix>lit>music, lib>miltrad, cuir rush Toku quite a bit later.

I'm the only one proposing option iii) at the moment. We all have our reasons for promoting our preferred strategy so maybe we just test and see where we are by 1ad.

The first month will be up on March 7 which still leaves two months to complete the game so we have enough time for testing.

Now there is another possibility I strongly lean towards
iv) CoL, double bulb into MC, CS and any of above (constr>HBR, constr>Machin, whatever)


@LoR
More or less this way, but not neccesairy. We will not be able to repeat failgolds exactly except 1st set. We should not worry about this, new testing environment should just give us an idea how our strategy will work in such international situation :] We should just care about giving wonder to civs at the same time, the rest can be edited at the end.

The most imprortant is a map. I even think that each of us could run his own test from the beginning if the plain map is prepered, to simulate different possible starts for AIs.

 

[enKage]

I agree that we should be in no hurry at this point. As soon as we get an updated test, I'll be glad to run more tests too but building one myself is not an option right now

Don't worry, we will have soon. As I can see LoR doesnt want to wait to weekend and considers preparing a map, in any other way I am open for preparing it, but on friday or saturday.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

@enKage, Glib isn't all that critical if we are running caste/pacifism and have like 8 science specialists in Trumprecht. The GLib polutes things if you are running 8 merchant specialists to get a merchant bulb and a Great Scientist comes out because of the GLib. I'd much rather have the Mids for the extra three beakers per specialist.

Still, we need to be flexible and have alternate plans depending on what Great Person comes out. A Great Spy and an espionage economy is the most efficient use of GPP.

1) Cities don't have to be sieged with effective spy/military unit synergies (Cur rush).
2) Production can be sabatoged--destroy units before they are produced.
3) Enemy cities can be seeded with culture before they are taken so that they are immediately productive when they come out of revolt. I don't think the rules forbid this as long as we don't make them legendary culture cities. We could maybe do this with Nicaea, so it has enough culture to take the corn after we take it, for instance. Though it is not necessary in this case.
4) Tech stealing fun--we should be able to steal HBR fairly soon.

EDIT - Infiltration. A single infiltration may give us enough points to steal both Engineering and Guilds. Something like that is a lot more powerful than any other Great Person.

 

[enKage]

We will probably not have a chance for Pyras even. GLib I want to move after CoL.
For now I think GSpy may be burnt for GAge, but in test I will strogly check revolt to Caste without GAge and it will still be enough to produce 2 great merchants quickly. I doint care 1 turn of anarchy if it can bring Civil Service in BC's and leave GSpy untouched for infiltration.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

The most imprortant is a map. I even think that each of us could run his own test from the beginning if the plain map is prepered, to simulate different possible starts for AIs.

OK, I'm good at maps. I may just create a map with the right civs.

 

[BLubmuz]

So its been 2 days since I posted my PPP. Here is what I can glean from the posts so far.

I agree with all your plan but research, as you already pointed out. CoL has been researched by 2 AIs, so we can maybe trade for it.

I particularly agree about your plans for Trumpstone.

 

[BLubmuz]

Is this the proper way to make an updated test?
1) Start an immortal game with the same unrestricted sets as the real one.
2) Open the save, edit the starting technologies, move the starting units, and edit the map with all current geographical knowledge.
3) Run my turn set exactly as it was done, followed by enKage, then by BLubmuz. AI technologies will have to edited along the way, so same tech trades can take place.
4) Edit the cities and units to current known positions.

Update the map as more is revealed.

Does this sound right? If so, the map really should be a team effort.

You can even use notepad (or anything similar, i recommend editpad or notepad++, both free) to edit a WB save. It depends by your taste. Certain things are easier in WB, other in notepad.