SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Mitchum]

Is it possible that an Imperialistic AI is building a settler working a 1F2H tile with the capital on a PH or something similar? That would only be 3F though and at this time, the lowest AI has 4F (not sure what it was on T0). It could also be a stone-enhanced SH or GW...

Please don't put more fear into Jastrow than he already has.

 

[WastinTime]

Wow. I did not expect a close neighbor. Big Question: is his capital so good that we want it now, now now? or do we wait for several cities? I say OB and explore. He'd be a good tech trader for a while, but he may have to die.

 

[Jastrow]

One AI is producing 6hpt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Oracle???)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could be any wonder of course, or some pre-improoved metal for the AI, but yeah, my bet is that it is the Oracle (Could the evil map-maker somehow have tinkered with the AI to force them to pick this as their first build without pre-settling?)

11. Barb city(ies) have pop4 total. Does that have anything to do with the Democracy challenge? Capture Humbowow? Is Hombowow unreachable without paradroopers? Exploration will reveal such stuff.

All speculation at this point of course, but I suspect the democracy challenge will have a monopoly or Donald Trump theme, and therefore dont think it will be in the Humbowbow style.

cows to the north, sheep and wheat to the south, healthy, wealthy and wise

COmbining that with some calander resources, we should be good to bot rex, and grow vertically, tho a couple of nobel metals would be nice as well.

AI Hammer already has another archer.

? Sorry... I dont understand what that means?

Hm...I wanted to OB with Asoka, but forgot. We didn't discuss that, but I assume we want to OB asap.

As a default, I would open borders... Is their any downside that we should consider?

 

[Jastrow]

Is it possible that an Imperialistic AI is building a settler working a 1F2H tile with the capital on a PH or something similar? That would only be 3F though and at this time, the lowest AI has 4F (not sure what it was on T0). It could also be a stone-enhanced SH or GW...

Please don't put more fear into Jastrow than he already has.

Even if this was the case... That said AI will finish the settler soon, and then could pick a Wonder....

 

[Jastrow]

Just had a look at the save, and discovered what could be a MASSIVE GAME CHANGER!

What if we beeline STEAM POWER for dikes and coal, and DEMOCRACY for the hidden objective, and IGNORE the corperation research path alltogether??? Wouldn't that be faster? We need PP for demo anyway, so we would only need 7 extra techs to get to steam power (guilds path)... It will be MUCH faster than getting to either Sushi or Mining Inc.

How does this magically work, you may ask... HOw do we still satisfy the game objective?

The objective is "You will found or capture the Corporate HQ of at least one corporation, and monopolize (owned and accessed, or traded for) every instance of its resources on the map before winning the game in any way you choose."

Well, I am boldly suggesting we CAPTURE the Aluminium Corp, which was FOUNDED in 4000 BC!!

(I think I am right that the corp will work knowing only where cold is, without revealing aluminium, and that we dont need corperations tech to get it to work once we capture it.)

A couple of other slight tidbits I found (nothing particularly interesting)

-Choose random religion is activated... Flavour only moslty, but it means we should not panic if on turn 8, someone founds Islam or so.


BTW, should we set espionage to Asoka to 1 now, so that we dont forget later? (I ALWAYS forget in my games.)

 

[ZPV]

That 6hpt AI most likely had a copper mine prebuilt, plus a plains hill (or plains marble) start.
The other option is a mundane Expansive AI decided to build a Granary first.

I like the look of that wheat-sheep pairing to the south. Potential 2nd city site, anyone?

I have an inkling that we might want to explore far enough south to rule out a super city (barb-owned?) in the corner of the map. If I wanted to hide something to punish teams that didn't explore properly, that's where I'd put it.

With Asoka, if his capital is close, we have a choice to make: can we catch him napping while his first settler walks with most of his archers? If so, there is likely a free holy city in it for us. If not, we'll probably want to wait until we can build a proper stack and he can build us some tile improvements.

 

[ZPV]

We need to think very carefully about the ORacle now, since one AI has mega-production.

I've done a little bit of testing with mega-production AIs with Marble.
They seem to build the Oracle around the t25 mark (give or take a few turns either side).

If the mega-production AI does not have marble, we should still be able to get it, but this feels like playing on a crooked roulette wheel.

 

[Jastrow]

Why I am against the Oracle:

Lets put to the side for the minute the inherent risk of playing on a crooked roulette wheel against a spinner who is wearing a graduate of evil doctoral school T-shirt, and think about the value of the oracle.

Cost of Oracle:
75 Hammers (assuming hook up marble) = ~1 settler
80+60=140 base beakers
A likely delay in hooking up city two fo trade route.
A likely reduction in optimization of worker turns.

Benifits of Oracle:
One of:
CoL = 350 base beakers
Math = 250 base beakers
Alpha? = 300 base beakers

I beleive a base beaker = about 1.45 real beakers under these settings, assuming a prerequisite bonus in play for all these techs, so lets just make it 1.5 for simplicity.

Substracting away the invested costs of 140 in the religious techs, we are "gaining"...

COL: 210*1.5 = 315 beakers
Math: 110*1.5= 165 beakers
Alpha: 160*1.5= 240 beakers

That at the cost of the 75 beakers and the other slight penalties listed above.

What techs do we want NOW?

The first order of buisiness is to grow an empire that can sustain a war and continue to tech to at least democracy and a corp/corp resources. This means we need to rex and/or grow through war an expand in an economically stable way. What are the first techs we need for that?

1- Math.... Math will allow us to chop (WT (and I) hate chopping before math... Activating math chops helps power the growth dramatically.)

2-Currency for the trade routes.

COL is needed at some point, but I usually do not build my first courthouse until around city 12 or so is up, so it is not an immediate priority.

Timing of techs...

We are realistically looking at a turn ~ 28 oracle... If we take COL with that, we are delaying both math and currency by the time it takes to research the religious techs (at our ~turn 25 research rarte). OUr research rate will be:
Palace = 8
Copper = 1
Marble = 3
Center = 1
Sid =1

So 14.... 140 costs * 1.5... That means math and currency come in 15 turns later... COL earlier is of little use (the religion is not a significant bonus in my eyes.)

So, if we did go for Oracle, I would argue the correct tech choice is math, despite being the cheapest.

Now, if we simply forgo the Oracle and go stright for math... We are currently researching at 10 per turn (including sid's beaker)...At turn 25 we will be at 14... Lets make it 12 on average for a roungh number. 12*25=300...It cost 375... 75/14 = ~5 with some optimization...

So, we can get math at roughtly the same time (maybe two turns slower) by just researching it direcltly instead of going for the oracle, and that is WITHOUT including the benifit of the second city... With that incorperated, we likely can get math at the same turn by direct research, and then it would be garanteed, and independent of the roulette wheel (tm)

Assessment:

If we go for math and get it with oracle...

At the turn oracles come in...
-We are bassically at tech equality with the math directly approach (since the religious techs we have are useless)... True, in the oracle approach, we will have some 160 beakers invested into CoL or similar, but it is not of immediate payback.
-We essentially have one settler, and thus one city left.

Even if the result was garanteed, I dont think I would take it, and the result is far from garanteed... If we gamble and lose, we are way worst of... So we are risking alot for the potential of an almost intangible gain if at all...

On the other hand, if we Oracle CoL, we are quite a bit better off beaker-wise, but we have delayed Math and Currency by 15 turns...

The value of this currency delay is pretty easy to estimate... We are talking about the period of about turns 50 to 65, so we should have about 6 cities at the time... Currency will be worth 6 coins per turn for those 15 turns = 90 goins, or about 110 beakers (prerequisite bonus.)
Math earlier is more difficult to quantify, but as long as it is worth at least some 50 beakers (which I think we all would agree to), then the math and currency first approach will catch up.

Bottom line
With the above in mind... Even if you could garantee Oracle was safe, I dont think I particularly want it! Compairing that to the risk of missing it, and I think it is a very poor gamble.

 

[WastinTime]

We CAPTURE the Aluminium Corp, which was FOUNDED in 4000 BC!!

Great "exploring" Jastrow! Who would have thought that the designers meant for us to explore the save, not explore the map!

This is clearly the way to go, and the way the designers intend it to go. It leads everyone to the UB (Dike) which makes complete sense. And it shortens the research path considerably which is in-line with the shorter game.

Pre-game, I was thinking about asking the question about whether we need to reveal Aluminum for this Corp. Now I don't want to ask and give anything away. It's pretty clear that we only need to control the coal and not reveal Alum.

The annoying thing is: we won't know where the coal is. Seems like the best strategy now is to conquer the entire map (except one city). Once coal is revealed we have an army of settlers ready to settle on the coal tiles. If the last AI has coal, we give him a different city and then settle on his coal. We have to be ready with workers to mine coal if there are, for example, two next to each other.

btw, I'm with Jastrow on 'no Oracle'

 

[WastinTime]

I don't think we put EPs on Asoka. He won't live long (unless the scout was put far from his cities as suggested). I'm thinking we only expand to 3-5 cities max (looking like only 3 good ones available). Then we conquer everyone. We don't want to trip the domination limit, so we should stay away from the far NE and far SE corners (unless there are secrets stashes there.) So by 'stay away', I mean explore it, but try not to settle that area.

 

[Mitchum]

Thinking about it, there were 0 cities on T0 right? So which city "owns" Aluminium Corp? Is it possible that KCD pre-settled a city, founded the corporation and then razed the city? Maybe he didn't want us to take the "easy" way out with Aluminium + coal and wanted to force us to found a corporation that required control of multiple resources.

Or could it be that he gave it to the barbs? Can the barbs have a pre-settled city on T0 without us knowing about it? I guess the answer is yes so it's either controlled by Humbaba or it's been razed/eliminated...

I'm on the fence about the Oracle but I'd like to see a test game where someone is able to fully leverage the saved 75H and do something special with it. It just seems like sacrilege not to build it with marble in our capital's BFC but I guess that doesn't mean that we HAVE to build it...

As an option, what if we try to Oracle something bigger than Math? We could start with Math while we REX along. We can hook up the marble at our leisure or wait until Math is in. Then, once Math is done, we assess the situation again. If we want to gamble at that time based on more map knowledge, we research PH as quickly as possible and one-turn the Oracle for Currency/Calendar/Construction.

 

[WastinTime]

Aluminum was not the easy choice. It requires a lot more tech to found it yourself, and then there is the whole problem with finding the hidden coal. I'd be surprised if he went out of his way to eliminate this corp. However, I'm concerned now that you pointed out the issue with 0 cities at T0. More investigation is needed.

 

[WastinTime]

As an option, what if we try to Oracle something bigger than Math? We could start with Math while we REX along. We can hook up the marble at our leisure or wait until Math is in. Then, once Math is done, we assess the situation again. If we want to gamble at that time based on more map knowledge, we research PH as quickly as possible and one-turn the Oracle for Currency/Calendar/Construction.

Yes. Agreed. Math for now. That was the big hold up for this TS. what's left to decide? Scout the corner or scout West? I'd vote West, but again I don't really care, so abstain.
Copper or corn? Copper.
Whip granary 1.

Who's up next? Jastrow I believe, then I think it was suggested me after that? I'd like an early TS so I don't spend as much time as last SG.

 

[Mitchum]

I don't think LC is done yet. I think the first few turnsets can be 15 to 20 turns... of course, I LC is ready to pass the baton he can but I'd like to see him play a bit more... once we have more than one city there is always the risk that he'll give one away.

Regarding seeing 0 cities on T0, two SGOTMs ago, there were a few pre-founded barb cities in the north. Could we "see" those cities on T0 already? I'm not even sure how to tell how many cities/pops exist now, so we'll need LC, ZPV or someone who knows how to figure this stuff out to weigh in...

 

[WastinTime]

I wasn't thinking LC was done, but I think the rest plays pretty quickly. If I was up next, I'd be preparing for my TS, so I was just trying to make sure Jastrow was around for the weekend and wants to play next or if he wants to pass.

 

[WastinTime]

I did a test out to Math T29. It was tight race to get it that fast.
City 2 founded by Wheat on T24
Settler for City 3 is just born and moving to Sugar on T29.

I whipped the settlers 6->4.

Worker did copper, corn, marble, wheat and will probably road for trade routes next.

 

[Mitchum]

That sounds like a good trade-off from the CoL sling: Math + 1 extra settler. Although, 1 worker for 2 virgin cities sounds a bit light...

How does the empire look at T29? How long would it take to research Meditation -> PH if we decided to make a quick run at the Oracle? Would we have enough worker turns to one-turn the Oracle in city #2 or #3?

 

[WastinTime]

That worker was perfectly timed. As soon has he finished marble, he was ready to start wheat on the first turn I settled. The cities are at 4 pop (since I just whipped the settler last turn) and 1 pop.
I have a library and only 2 MP. Chances are we will want an archer for safety (for worker steal?) and the library will slip a couple turns. Math will probably slip to T30.

I could consider a 2nd worker now (assuming we haven't stolen one already!)

 

[Jastrow]

On my schedule... I am around today, but am away much of tomorrow (will have a bit of time in the evening)... I have time every evening this comming week apart from Friday... I am assuming LC will play on at least one, and likely another 2 mini sets, so I imagine I will not be up tomorrow.

I am thinking about my turnset already, and starting to plan... In that spirit, WT, can you give the exact build order and worked tile micro for your math T29 test? I also dont remember where wheet is to be honest... I was thinking sugar would be city two, but that is based only on the starting screenshot.

Where is Alu Corp?
Good remark about no cities at turn zero Mitchum... I dont really buy the build and raze theory however... As WT said, Alu-corp was certainly not the obvious choice, so there is no obvious reason why he would have squalched it... That leaves the barb-city theory as likely I think (unless the demographics can disproove a barb city... I dont know that.)



As for trying for a late oracle if it is still around once we get to math... Yes, I would certainly be up for that... Oracling Currency would be HUGE! It is an even bigger value (pure beakers) than COL, and speeds up a tech which is directly on our top priority path for starting. That would be a gamble worth taking!

 

[WastinTime]

T29 details: Sorry I played kinda fast.
I built granary (whip1), library, When you reach size 6, build settler 1 turn, whip 2, back to library, repeat settler at size 6. Somewhere in there I got another warrior too.

I did lots of mini-micro changes to keep the research rate going.