SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Jastrow]

.

Oracle costing 150 on normal though, changes things for me. 150 is a Settler, then Oracle is still better, but only if gotten, which as said, we can check via Worldbuilder-testruns.

On normal, a settler is only 100 hammrers...

WE are imperial, so more like 70 for us...

The Oracle is not one, but TWO settlers!

When I phrase it like that, I am suddently of the opinion that we should skip the Oracle all together (especially since I am of the opinion we cannot garantee it, and getting beaten to it would suck.)

 

[Seraiel]

Spoiler :

From having played the test-game:

With SIPing:

1. Improve Corn
2. Temporize Cottage / Farm on Floodplain
3. Improve Copper
3.5 worker start chopping well-chosen Forrest
4. Work 1T PHF
5. Work 2T Silks
6. Granary T14
7. Work Floodplain
8. Size 4 T18 (growing T19) Library 20/90

Settling 2S:

1. Improve Pigs
2. Improve Copper (grow on Floodplain)
3. Size 3 T10 (work PHF)
4. Work PHF instead of Pigs on turn where Granary is whipped
5. Size 4 T18 (slightly less significantly more on the Library (35/90)

-> City has 2 times improved Food + Cottage in 1T on the FP = definately stronger opening

...
...
[tried to improve approaches]
...
...

Result: Settling 2S is a lot stronger. Pigs + Corn are simply very strong, and there are some hidden advantages too. Basically the approach plays extremely well, like i. e. "city grows 1T earlier with just 1 or 2 surplus, instead of needing 1T more and having great surplus" , Worker movement seems like this opening was ment to be, only thing that disturbs me slightly is working the PHF instead of the Pigs, but that's simply because of Granary mechanics.

---------

As you can see btw., no chance to hook up the Marble yet with only 1 Worker. Maybe someone else can test a little there. Hooking up the Marble with only 1 Worker probably needs to skip on the FP-Cottage in order to build roads and connect the Marble. Not having an early Cottage on the FP doesn't hurt, because it's only 1 anyhow, and we're whipping 5 -> 3 or 4 -> 2 for the whole beginning anyhow, important are the 3 improved tiles of Pigs, Copper and Corn.

Test if improving the Corn first is stronger if you want, I personally don't believe it is. Approach posted really plays very very well, and I'm quite certain, that growing to size 4 takes longer than whipping earlier at size 3, which must not mean that it's better.

Hth.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Testing
Darn it, I was really hoping to have testing time after the real saved game came out when we could have an updated test game to incorporate fog-gazing. I'm still confused if the 3 hidden squares of 2S's big fat cross contain 2 Hills squares or 3 Hills squares. But, it looks like I won't have testing time until roughly 20 hours from now. I'm glad to see that some of you are putting in the time, thanks.


The Plan is what, exactly?
I'm also not sure what "ZPV/WT MM" refers to.


The Oracle Date
When are people building The Oracle relative to the completion of research on Math? Like, how much of a delay would there be to get Currency/Calendar/Construction from The Oracle?


The Warrior
If we're already at the point of pushing forward, I'd cast my vote for Warrior Turn 0 1N -> Turn 1 1NE. Turn 0 1NW may miss whatever is on the east side of the Peak and depending upon unstated consensus, we may not end up keeping the Warrior around as I would like and thus that area might go unexplored for quite some time.


The Scout
The Scout should come southward with the goal of moving 2 squares per turn, when possible. Ideally, he won't end his turn on a square that is eligible to receive a Forest and which is adjacent to at least one Forest, unless moving there seems ideal for movement purposes or for ideal exploration purposes. (An easy way to do so is to end your turn inside of Forests.)


Settling Location
I'm still not convinced that 2S is the best place to go if we're at all willing to try Oracling a post-Math tech like Calendar. +2 early Happiness would be wickedly strong and the capital would have 6 improvable Resource squares as compared to 4 improvable Resource squares to work in order to properly leverage that Happiness.

EDIT: City #2's location would also be strong, with shared Corn, Pig, Marble, and several Hills squares.

If we're totally against Oracling a post-Math tech, then sure, 2S seems decent enough when only looking at the City from a one-City perspective. However, I'm honestly thinking that we'll want to settle City #2 to share a Food Resource with the capital. The problem with 2S is that there isn't a great spot for sharing a Food Resource... ideally, we'd put a City where the Lake sits, but we obviously can't. That leaves 1W of the Lake, which is frustratingly one square off of the Coast, or 1E of the Lake, which gets 3 squares off of the edge of the map (but is otherwise okay as a filler City). Or, we don't share the Corn, which means going with the only viable place to share the Pig, which is 3S of the 2S location.

So, we're actually reducing our options for a good shared-Food start by settling 2S. We may get lucky and 3S of the 2S location could be a great spot to settle... or, it might not be. We should at least keep this fact in mind.

 

[Jastrow]

For the record, right now I am against Oracling period... I think I would rather have the two settlers, and use the 3 cities to research the techs by hand... The 200 gold start allows us to Rex much faster than normal without hurting our research.

I am starting to think we should actually research directly math/currency, to enable chops and currency, and rex to the max...

 

[WastinTime]

Food for thought indeed. So much thought, that I now want to try Worker-Granary (with the pig->chop->stuff improvement order) and see how it compares.

Ok, we go worker first...even after we've been given a free worker, I will use my Veto.

 

[Mitchum]

On normal, a settler is only 100 hammrers...

WE are imperial, so more like 70 for us...

The Oracle is not one, but TWO settlers!

When I phrase it like that, I am suddently of the opinion that we should skip the Oracle all together (especially since I am of the opinion we cannot garantee it, and getting beaten to it would suck.)

With marble connected, the Oracle costs 75H = 1 settler, not 2 settlers.

In my testing in cheat mode, anything pre-T30 should be very safe. I find it hard to believe that a CoL sling is riskier than any sling you try in any other game. If we go for a post-Math sling (e.g. Construction or Calendar) or something bigger then I agree that the Oracle is a big gamble. A CoL sling is a tiny gamble and I'd take these odds all day in Vega$ and be a rich richer man!

 

[WastinTime]

Having a road from city 1 to city 2 is more important to me than hooking up the marble road or the cottage.

 

[Mitchum]

Ok, we go worker first...even after we've been given a free worker, I will use my Veto.

YES!! WastinTime uses his only VETO before the game even begins. It looks like we're farming every FP, building monuments in every city, chopping the GW pre-Math and one-popping all day long.

Seriously, I'm not a fan of going for such an early worker either, especially with the ability to start a granary right away and with 4 awesome tiles to grow onto. With that said, if tests show that doing so leads to some big advantage in the future, it's hard to argue.

Since people seem to want to test, should we set some arbitrary date so that we can actually compare them with respect to F, H, C, REX, etc?

 

[WastinTime]

Although I said Warrior NW, don't hold up the game for that. If you want to go N, fine.
So consider me an 'abstain' as long as it's one of those two moves (as as long as the Warrior doesn't go East around the mountain next)

 

[Mitchum]

Having a road from city 1 to city 2 is more important to me than hooking up the marble road or the cottage.

Why? Have you abandoned thoughts of the Oracle? If not, then the 75 "free" hammers will be >> than the +2C for 10? turns we don't have the cities connected. I guess the road could speed up settling the city by a turn if we are able to pre-build it but that still doesn't make up for not getting the 100% bonus on the Oracle.

BTW, I'm fine with skipping the cottage since it won't get worked too much with whipping, it's mpt hooking up the marble that I'm unsure about.

 

[Jastrow]

IF 75 hammers, then we are hookinh up marble early, which means sub-optimum rexing... Now, if I beleived that turn 30 is safe, then I probably would agree it is worth it (tho to be honest, I am not a CoL sling fan. If I dont think I can pull of CS, I often do not sling at all.)

However, I am far from convinced it is safe... We bassically will loose ANY oracle attempt to any AI who chooses to go Oracle first... Any AI with either Marble or Industrious who goes Oracle second will also beat turn 30... Heck, what if we go grazy and combine everything, and an AI could probably get Oracle ~turn 10

Now, is that likely... Of course not... But it is not impossible... My point being simply that there will never be a safe date...

And that assumes the AI do not start with anything special. Give them a second settler (could we tell that from the demongraphics now? Probably not, but will know before turn 5, when we have to pick research), and the odds would be even worse...

It is just the more I think about it, the more I am liking a power-rex, and the less a non-great and not garanteed Oracle appeals to me.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

SIP + Religion
Another point that was glossed over... let's say that we don't revolt to Slavery right away for whatever reason, such as wanting to build a Worker (or even a Settler) when we reach Size 2.

Well, working the Lake = 4 yields compared to working the Corn or Pig for 3 yields.

Yes, people think that going for a Religious tech is generally a poor play, as you want to unlock Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, etc. But, when you have those other techs and are going for a Religious tech anyway, what's the harm in trying to score that Religion with a bit more emphasis on Commerce?

Yes, it would be a risk that we'd still miss out on founding Buddhism... but, we might get it, too. Then, we'd have:
i. Less competition for The Oracle, as there would be more competition for Stonehenge
ii. Less need to go for Code of Laws right away for a Religion
iii. A better capital for Bureaucracy, given how the team keeps talking about going for Math + Code of Laws to get at Civil Service

What does it take, 5 turns to Farm a Corn?

So, on Turn 4, we could earn 5 Food per turn.

For the first 4 turns (0 through 3), we could earn +2 Commerce per turn.

4 * 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 8 + 15 = 23 / 22 Food needed for Size 2.

Compare that with
4 * 3 + 5 + 5 = 12 + 10 = 22 / 22 Food needed for Size 2, and we would be sacrificing 1 turn of getting to Size 2 for an extra 8 Commerce... would that Commerce be enough to shave off one turn on Meditation, especially when combined with "Flask banking" for the first 5 turns?


Code of Laws
Assuming that we don't SIP, is Bureaucracy for settling 2S really that strong? What's an extra +50% Hammers when you already are whipping Settlers using the Imperialistic Trait? Essentially, it is no longer a purely relative bonus of +50%.

Yes, early Metal Casting without the Industrious Trait isn't very compelling, although early Alphabet may be decent if we want to speed up the global tech pace. I mean, the more advanced the AIs are, the faster that we can tech, and this game is mostly about teching quickly again, right?

Then, there's always the Currency, Construction, or Calendar option if we delay The Oracle. Honestly, if we're going for Math, why not time two Math-enhanced, Marble-enhanced Chops to arrive at the time of learning Math? 2 * 30 * 2 = 120 Hammers. The remaining 15 base Hammers can be earned over the course of 2 turns, say, so that you've only invested 8 raw Hammers into The Oracle in case of getting beaten to it (Failure Gold is good, but not THAT early relative to saving the Hammers for REXing, given that we have the important techs like Bronze Working and Pottery already).


Stonehenge
We haven't talked about wanting this Wonder, but it could actually be the stronger Wonder given that it is worth +1 Happiness and free Cultural Border expansion in every City... wouldn't it be WAY better for REXing?

Sure, a Religion can spread around... eventually.


Road to City 2

Having a road from city 1 to city 2 is more important to me than hooking up the marble road or the cottage.

They could be partially the same Road by SIP and settling 1E of the Marble.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Worker First

Ok, we go worker first...even after we've been given a free worker, I will use my Veto.

So, does that mean we're back to talking about settling on the PH For square for the faster Worker, as well as improving the Copper first for the 7-yield square as opposed to the Pig's 6-yields, due to the Copper being on a River?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Dhoom, if you had been testing this afternoon instead of typing, we'd all know if SIP was competitive. We'd all know when we'd complete Medit-PH-Math, and so on.

I don't mean to be harsh, just saying...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Spoiler :

Okay, I tested pigs-chop-corn-copper. I ran the tests to T25, building granary-worker (plus warrior and library filler hammers). Compared to the ZPV/WT variant:

Turn food ham coin

T23 192 204 231 ZPV/WT#1
T23 139 253 221 ZPV/WT#2 (1chop)
T23 224 181 218 LC

T25 220 220 257 ZPV/WT#1
T25 170 269 257 ZPV/WT#2 (1chop)
T25 256 201 246 LC

(where ZPV/WT#1 = the MM proposed by ZPV and WastinTime; LC Ver #1)

Improvements are equal. LC is missing one chop.

In other words, LC provides +32f in exchange for 23h+chop and 13c. The significance of the 32f is that LC can produce a settler 2 turns sooner along with everything else that comes 2 turns sooner in the ensuing turns. This is mainly relevant to the oracle city #2. I didn't look at building a settler before a worker.

Food for thought.


Edit: The LC worker is done on T17, three turns sooner and also three turns before barbs might begin spawning, in case we need to connect copper.

Inside the spoilers you see an additional version I tested on ZPV's and WastinTime's proposed MM for 2S (ZPV/WT MM). This time, I built and 1chopped the worker, so I could 2whip a settler immediately after.

COnclusions:
1. The ZPV/WT microM for 2S is the best yet.
2. Adding up total food for comparison is dubious because it depends on how much food was used for worker and settler builds.
3. I see no problem getting the Oracle built in City #2 in rapid order, since we can have 2 workers to expedite it. Ideally, we'd have 3 cities, City#2 for the ORacle, and City#3 hopefully for Confu, giving us the COnfu Missionary for City#4 border expansion.

I'm ready to play. Anyone object?

 

[LowtherCastle]

YES!! WastinTime uses his only VETO before the game even begins.

No said anything about only one veto, but I won't veto you getting only one.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I see that Seraiel has concluded that 2S is better. I'm confident that ZPV will find that worker-granary is not the way to go, so I will play to T5 now.

 

[Mitchum]

Good luck!! Although you're not giving Dhoom time to fully explore the much inferior SIP..

 

[LowtherCastle]

Turnset Report T0-T5

T0
As planned. No significant sitings.

T1
Settle Trumpster 2S of starting location.

One AI is producing 6hpt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Oracle???)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All AIs but one are producing 5fpt.
All AIs are at pop1, but including barbs, the world population = 11. Barb city(ies) have pop4 total. Does that have anything to do with the Democracy challenge? Capture Humbowow? Is Hombowow unreachable without paradroopers? Exploration will reveal such stuff.

T2
nada

T3
We meet Asoka in the south. His scout is facing SE so his scout started to our WSW somewhere. Is that where Asoka is? Incidentally, because our scout was hill-locked to the west of the marble, I calculated is was a bit better to scout southward first. I would have missed Asoka's scout if I had beelined SW. Of course, I'd also find Asoka sooner, if he's actually there. (kcd might have planted scouts around to fool us)

T4
cows to the north, sheep and wheat to the south, healthy, wealthy and wise
AI Hammer already has another archer.

T5

Hm...I wanted to OB with Asoka, but forgot. We didn't discuss that, but I assume we want to OB asap.

uploading save

Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3800 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 4000 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Trumpster adopts Slavery!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 1, 3960 BC: Trumpster has been founded.

Turn 4, 3840 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Asoka

Turn 5, 3800 BC: The borders of Trumpster are about to expand.

Yay!!! We're ahead of all the other teams!!!

 

[LowtherCastle]

We need to think very carefully about the ORacle now, since one AI has mega-production. So far, we haven't found any settling sites that are particularly exciting, but we also haven't ventured westward yet, just southward.

Asoka appears to be very close, so maybe he's the chump with all the hammers, to protect him against us. Well, if so, then we will soon know what his cities are producing and we can still mess with his feeble, rainbow-addled mind.