SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Ronnie1, I am not sure what I am supposed to see in the saves? There is the 1 food difference, but looking at the starting save I still see the work-both-food scenario getting the growth to size 3 a turn sooner. This matches the tests I ran before, so I am do not see anything different.
Indeed, as I said before, the difference always shows up on the second pop growth when the granary gets its full effect. If you are able to hit the 50% mark exactly the results are better.

@sleepless, looks good from the screenies.

I'm a brief hiatus for the next few days. Will have some access.
 
Hidden objective
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
hehehe
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Stop the Madness!
Mehmed smote his breast and tore his robes. These civil wars must be stopped once and for all.
"There can never be peace as long as brothers fight brothers. Make sure that all internal fights end! - Each nation can only have one free leader. At least one leader of each nation has to be eliminated or be vassalized."
It doesn't matter whose vassal they are.
 
Looks good, Sleepless!

So now that we know the last AI it seems we may not need astro after all. Just maybe to get all holy cities. Anyway, I'm wondering if we even need a very strong tech base at all. Feudalism for vassals and then cap AIs until domination seems like a recipe for victory. Of course some military techs could help and literature for the HE and such. So maybe PS from mids?

Slightly torn over who to declare on next. Louis looks most natural to me (also the biggest AI and potentially the strongest), but indeed we can't lose Rostov and the mids to a flip to Cathy. However, maybe once we get some culture going in the city it won't be all that bad, third ring vs 0th ring and all? At least Yaroslavl doesn't have any wonders (yet) so it's probably gone just slightly over 100 culture (with Cathy creative). Maybe we can hold on until we'll declare later on Cathy anyway (see below).

Note by the way that Churchill bribed Sulei against Victoria. Also note Victoria doesn't have an inbuilt -20 vs Churchill, that's probably why she had another worst enemy earlier on.

The hidden objective seems to lead even more to domination. We could leave Napoleon alone (Louis' land being more lush and much bigger; land needed for dom), theoretically could leave Cathy alone, but probably easier to just gobble up (after Louis). From there it looks logical to get Augustus and leave Julius alone and then it'll depend on the location who the English victim will be.
 
Very interesting hidden objective, Pollux! I like how it fits into the scenario design with the pairs of civs. :goodjob:

Agree with just about everything you wrote, nocho. :) But I am not sure yet if we will need Astro -- the barb city south of Ankara has a line of ocean tiles blocking it from the north. There may be a way to it via the island where Julius has a city, but we need to try to confirm that before we decide we don't need much research. I would not be surprised if Astro turns out to be necessary.

I also see we have a barb galley about to destroy our nets at Rheims. :( Maybe it will chase Victoria's wb instead, but that just means it will end up in the middle of our local sea. We are going to need a ship or two to handle that.

With the hidden objective revealed, we can now compile a list of all our objectives and progress towards them. :) Items in bold are not yet completed.

Game Objectives

1) Achieve victory other than conquest - not yet, leaning towards domination
2) At least one civ from each pair must be eliminated or vassalized (by anybody)
2a) Ottoman - not yet, need to clean up Suleiman's last city at some point
2b) Russian - done, Peter eliminated
2c) French
2d) Roman
2e) English
3) No one else can control a holy city - 0 of 7 so far
4) All of our cities must have at least 2 religions - no cities have any religion yet
5) Have at least 70 temples in our cities - 0 of 70 temples built so far
6) Enter and remain in Free Religion once Liberalism is learned - tech not learned so no need (so far)

Have I missed anything? Anyway, we obviously have quite a lot of work to do yet. :lol: Especially on the religious side...I really think we need to prioritize grabbing a holy city so we can start getting free spreads and start benefitting from religious civics. Grabbing a second holy city to start spreading a second religion via missionaries would also be a good idea -- the process will take time due to the limit on missionary units and I think we should avoid leaving all that work to later. We are going to need to set up a couple cities as missionary pumps and get them working.
 
Well no real problem with the hidden objective. So domination looks most likely as a victory type though perhaps an AP instead?

We do need as haphazard1 mentioned get a holy city and free spread plus find all the other holy cities. I get the feeling astro will be needed but some boats out exploring..
 
Hi all. Sorry to drop off without a word. I'm in Australia for work and haven't had time to check in on things.
I'll be back in three weeks (24 September). We might need a new team captain in the meantime.
 
I hope everything goes well for you in Asutralia, adrianj!

So...who is up next? Sleepless, do you want to play some more turns -- I think you played 6 to finish off Peter? Or are you ready to hand over?
 
I'm assuming sleepless will play some more turns, then I'll take over.

Main thing we have to decide now is on who to turn on next and tech path.
 
Main thing we have to decide now is on who to turn on next and tech path.

Who to attack next? I would like to finish off Suleiman now that we have cats and elephants to break his hill city defenders. But that is not actually urgent -- we can do that whenever.

Catherine or Louis.... I think I prefer Louis, because he has more cities (and is thus more dangerous if we leave him alone) and does not have HAs (so we do not need to wait for spears/elephants to handle them). We will need to make sure Rheims has enough defenders, might even want to build cheap walls there once the stone comes online. But the local sea sort of stretches Louis out, so we can attack him sequentially as we work around the coast. Catherine would have a broader front, plus the mobility of HAs, so I think we leave her until a bit later after we prepare a bit more and have a larger number of elephants and cats.

But I am not picky. :lol: If the team wants to go after Catherine first I will not object.

Tech path...we have several good options available to us. What do we think is more likely to become available in trade? Then we can tech a different option.

MC - forges would be very nice for our high-hammer cities, plus adding extra happiness from silver, gems, and (soon) gold. Expensive but I think well worth it.
Calendar - improve the incense at Ankara and the two bananas at Edirne, plus other resources in Louis' territory that we will soon control.
Feudalism - longbows for strong defenders, vassalage

A few other things to think about:

- National wonders, especially Moai

I am tempted to wait until we capture the barb island city, and then put Moai there. But we could also put it in Istanbul, Rheims, or a new city SE of Edirne that uses the multiple seafood there. MA could even build it, but MA has so many good non-water tiles to work that I am not sure it is the best use of Moai.

- Claiming a barb holy city (or two, or three...)

I really think we need to fit this into our plans very soon, to start the process of spreading religion throughout our empire. We do not want to leave all the religious efforts until after most of our conquering is done, as that would really stretch out our victory date.

- Exploration

We need to find all the barb holy cities; if none of them are double (or more) holy cities then we still have some to find. We also need to determine if that barb city south of Ankara is reachable without Astro. Finding Victoria and Churchill (presumably west of the Romans somewhere) so we can plan better would also be useful.

- Apostolic Palace

Assuming none of the AIs conquers a barb holy city (and the AI is terrible at naval invasions) then we can probably build the AP whenever we get around to having Theology and adopting a state religion. But we would need to act quickly once we conquer a barb holy city, as the religion might spread beyond our borders before it spreads to us. Of course there might be an AI with Theology already, since we do not have Mono to see.

Anyway, building the AP would ensure our eligibility for votes and also ensure that it is locked into our choice of religion. This might give us a tool for a quicker victory than domination, especially if we vassalize multiple AIs and did not have enough land after the halving factor. That we could get some free AP hammers for some of the many temples we are going to build anyway would also be a nice boost.

Edit: Two more things! :lol:

- Building a spy to steal Aesthetics from Catherine

Worth doing? Or wait until shortly before we are going to declare?

- Settlers for more cities

If we are going to settle open sites (east of SL for the two orphan seafood, SE of Edirne for the whales and two seafood, the copper/wheat site SW of CS) then we should probably get the settlers out and found them quickly. The first two are strong sites with good food, they can easily grow fast to whip whatever we need (a library and run scientists, military units, etc.). The copper/wheat site would be slower growing but still pretty good, if it has not already been claimed by Catherine.

We may also want a settler or two available to claim sites once we clear out Louis' control, depending on whether some of his newer cities are worth keeping.
 
I'm fine with Nocho taking over. Had my kill fest... :lol: Been to a funeral today and had a few ciders at the wake (not to many though.. ;)). So happy to pass over to Nocho.. :)
 
Ok, will see if I can get a rough plan up tonight. Instead of a funeral I'll have a wedding tomorrow which does promise too many drinks, so no playing until the weekend. ;)
 
Haph has brought up some good points :goodjob:, hope to incorporate them. ;)

General plan
Prepare for war vs Louis, declaring in about 4-5 turns (?). Tech 0% on MC. Definitely want the tech for prod and happy. If we bribe Napoleon against Louis after DoW, maybe he's more willing to trade it. Hence for now, just hoard cash.

"Boundary conditions", that is, context of the plan
We have 10 HAs in the north and 3 chariots. We'll need some replacement units for city garrison. We need to keep units in Rostov and get culture asap there. More stray units more south that likely need shipping. We need some boats to ferry units near Rheims or directly at Chartres. A settler for double sea food 3E of SL. Some CHs where maintenance gets into the 9-10 range. I think for Louis we'll need more HAs rather than cats/WEs. The latter aren't going to catch up. Louis' metal sources look vulnerable too. :scan:

Cities
SL: Cat, HAs, spy for aesthetics steal. Resume getting a scientist born. ;)
HF: Settler for site east of SL, 3 pop whip into HAs. Hammam has no hurry until closer to happy cap again or decaying hammers.
CS: Units, or HG.
MA: WE (micro for 1 turn finish), galley (whip), units
Ist: Galley (whip), cat
Edi: Archer (free up HA), cats
Ank: Archer (free up HA), LH, CH. Barracks low prio here imo.
Rhe: Galley (whip), CH
Ghu: Library (whip next turn), boats for exploration.
Rost: Monument first whipped next turn. Culture asap! Library, archers.
StP: Library (whip asap), archers to replace HAs and for future garrisoning.
Yek: Archer, granary, possibly settler for relocating Poitiers 2N1W (or 5E of Yek).

Moai, can't see it yet. Indeed MA has too many other tiles to work. The hindu city may indeed be a good idea.

HG, like it, but not sure where. Indeed in CS as proposed? Units from that city will be far from the front anyway. With stone it can build HG in 7 or 8 turns, also some wood left.

War
On DoW, Amiens can be taken immediately. That'll probably get the tile 2E1N of MA in our hands, making Rouen another city we can get on turn of DoW. Without Amiens, Louis won't have iron which is good. Bronze at Chartres and soon at that new city on the northern coast. I'm hoping our stray chariot currently in Poitiers can take care of that one if connected. That'd leave Chartres as an early target. That's why the boats at MA, Rheims and Istanbul... Although in the latter ones also for that pesky barb boat.

Trade
Sell cow to Augustus for 2 gpt (?).
Right now fine on happy so no need for spice from Louis if we DoW him soon anyway.

No tech trades available of interest atm.

Spying
Get spy to Yaroslavl for aesthetics steal.

Stopping conditions
The usual. ;)
Break at 4-5 turns.

EDIT: What to do with the GG? We have a supermedic already, how about a 2-move combat-X elephant?
 
Plan looks solid to me, nocho. :)

Happiness...I thought we had an existing happy deal with Louis? (Sugar, I think?) So we will lose that, which may affect your happiness calculations.

I like CS for the Hanging Gardens. It has tons of hammers and is relatively far from the front, so it makes a good choice. It does put the GE points in a city that will probably never pop a great person, though. :( Hmmmm. Maybe SL? Not as many hammers but still pretty decent. MA would probably be best of all if we could manage it there, as MA will probably become a GP farm eventually.

Not sure on the GG. Settling it as an instructor in a city that will build lots of military is also a possibility. Not a big difference for mounted units, but for non-mounted units the extra 2 XP would help a lot. Maybe somewhere we can build ships, get some ships with promotions? Not sure what is best. :confused:
 
GG? We have 2 stacks, would we consider 2 Super Medics?

Plan is solid. Can we get to Chartes overland in 2-3 turns and not need so many boats? If we are going to settle him, I would want to build 2 promo siege units for future wars.
 
Just a thought about city builds... More units would probably be better bearing in mind Louis has 9 cities so once the war starts we can expect to see a lot of units from him

Obviously don't try and beg from Loius otherwise we end up with a 10 turn peace deal... ;).

Also a boat to drop some units on the holy city island would be a help.

Astro for the holy cities?? I think we will probably need this so MC as next tech makes sense.
 
I agree that we shouldn't neglect unit builds.
But I also think we need a bunch of galleys to get out exploring. In previous games exploring has been something we failed to do properly, and we still need a lot of knowledge about the map before we can make sure we can win.
 
Agree with not neglecting unit builds -- Louis will put up a fight, although hopefully an ineffective one. :D

I also like the idea of some boats. We have that barb galley threatening Rheims to deal with, and we could then use the survivor(s) to land troops on the barb island to claim the holy city. Further south we could use some exploration, and sending a boat or two east and west would not hurt either. We need to extend our map knowledge and make sure we have located all holy cities.
 
^The boats are pretty much covered in the plan, aren't they? Units yeah.

Not really mentioned nor covered by the plan: do we take either rep or PS and if so, immediately? Opinions please. :)
 
I can see both civic choices being beneficial. Representation helps keep our tech rate up a bit. Police State helps production and keeps WW down in protracted wars. The production bonus comes in 25% increments on units only. So not really valuable unless we get decent base hammers in cities where we intend to build units. Whipping gets the same bonus.

I would think in the short run, still needing units and expecting to be in a war for a little while at least, PS seems best.
 
Civics now that we own the Pyramids (and of course we need to make sure that we continue to control them - culture ASAP in Rostov!)....

I think Police State is the way to go for now. We will be building plenty of units in the near and middle terms, and several of our cities generate enough hammers for the bonus to be significant. The war with Louis could last long enough for war weariness to become a factor as well.

Representation could be useful for research at some point, but only if we make a significant effort to assign lots of specialists and I do not see us doing so in the near future. The other reason for Rep would be happiness, but if we are focusing on units then we can whip to control unhappiness. We should also be able to handle unhappiness with new resources (Louis has several that we will claim as the war progresses) and with buildings (hammams, colosseums are now available, forges should become available soon, temples should become available as religion spreads).
 
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