Yep, that is why I raised the possibility of burning some holy cities. Especially since we will certainly need at least one missionary for each one if we keep them. Of course we will need at least one missionary for all of our cities, but if we are close to completing all objectives then keeping cities may become unnecessary.
Had not spotted the possibility of vassalizing Catherine -- very nice catch there! That will certainly help us a lot, regaining lots of tiles and removing her as an enemy plus the trade opportunities. That will let us continue on Optics until we can get to Astro.
I will handle the vassalization, then begin massing troops for an attack on Rome. Sub-groups of troops will be sent to take on the known barb holy cities, with boats as available/built as needed. Which Roman do we want to attack? Julius appears to be considerably weaker, and thus likely to be faster to finish off. Do we want a kill or would vassalization be acceptable? (Not that we are likely to manage that fast enough for my turnset, but you never know....)
Once we have religion, how aggressively should we start spreading it? Passive at first, just wait for the first few free spreads and then work from there? Or start cranking missionaries as rapidly as possible?
I do think getting some religion in our cities has to be a priority now. I'd use some of the workers in Lyons to build roads towards the Christian barbs.
We need 70 temples and at least 2 religions per city. Atm we have 24 cities so shouldn't have to much trouble getting to the required temples/religions per city but that will be the slowest part of the game to my mind.
Next GP. GS bulb astro when available. GE I would fire off a Golden Age and change civics to rep/caste and make sure we get a GS during this period. Obviously we want OR as well.
Burning holy cities.. I would certainly try and keep 4 and certainly the first ones we get. Plus side of more is the ability to build more religious missionaries.
Domination seems the obvious victory to me. Settle the lands to the East and vassal West. We can always give cities back if we want.
Next GP. GS bulb astro when available. GE I would fire off a Golden Age and change civics to rep/caste and make sure we get a GS during this period. Obviously we want OR as well.
If we get a GE, we could consider going for Theology and guaranteeing ourselves the AP. Not sure it would be worth it, since we would have to adopt a state religion at least temporarily, etc. But it would greatly reduce a source of risk, both "stop the war" votes and diplomatic defeat. We did come awfully close to losing via AP last game.
Also, do we want OR? It would help with building temples, and it would allow missionaries without monasteries. But we are likely to need enough missionaries that building a few monasteries in high hammer cities and cranking missionaries non-stop might be cheaper and equally effective. Just something to consider.
Burning holy cities.. I would certainly try and keep 4 and certainly the first ones we get. Plus side of more is the ability to build more religious missionaries.
Sounds reasonable. If that is the plan, do we want to consider planting some filler cities if they have decent resources? We could place a city SW of CS, for example, with the wheat and copper, which would fill in space once the Buddhist holy city is taken. Each extra city will need a missionary later (or two, or more potentially if failures occur), but will not cost too much and adds a place to build a temple or two.
Every great priest settled counts as 4 temples. Maybe it's worthwhile to build Angkor in our NE city for the priest slots? Add a few temples for even more slots and we might well pop 3 or 4, after a GS for astro ofc.
I'm not afraid of the AP this game at all. Nobody has religions yet and likely we can easily block any vote, more so with our interest in spreading religions anyway.
OR does look like the obvious choice to me. If we can get missionaries from anywhere we also need worry a lot less about travel times.
I think we'll want about 30 cities, so settling some more is fine with me.
We don't need 2 religions in our vassal's cities, do we? (BSP? )
OK, took a more detailed look at the save. I also went ahead and vassalized Catherine, and shuffled around a bunch of tile usage, build queues, and units that had moves left. Still the same turn as before, and now I have some questions for the team:
- We have a GG in the capital. What do we want to do with it? Another GG super medic might be useful, since we are going to have multiple forces going after different targets. Or we could settle it somewhere for XP, preferably a coastal city so we can get some boats with promos. Thoughts?
- We have Philosophy available to trade to Catherine (and possibly others?). Of course she could trade it to someone else if we give it to her.... She will give us Calendar, Literature, and about half of her available gold for Philo. We could really use Calendar...and Literature would not hurt, although we would have to decide where to build our Epics. Heroic Epic at least, not sure National Epic would be useful although I guess we could put it in MA?
Anyway, do we make that trade? I think yes. Cathy is about to finish Bureaucracy which would also be nice for macemen, but which would block the Astro bulb. Do we wait 3 turns to see if we get a GS, then re-assess? I would like to have Calendar, but I would like to know what everyone thinks on this one.
- What about Optics research? We could finish it very quickly (maybe 2-3 turns) but it would consume pretty much all of our treasury. Worth doing? We can manage our economy and maybe have a couple cities build wealth if needed to avoid strikes, but once the money is gone our research will be very slow.
A lot depends on what kind of GP we get from MA in 3 turns. So I am thinking of playing just those three turns, then pausing and getting more input from the team. But I would like input on the above questions before I play even that much.
If we get a GE, we could consider going for Theology and guaranteeing ourselves the AP. Not sure it would be worth it, since we would have to adopt a state religion at least temporarily, etc. But it would greatly reduce a source of risk, both "stop the war" votes and diplomatic defeat. We did come awfully close to losing via AP last game. I can't see an AP victory likely to happen. At least by the AI..
Also, do we want OR? It would help with building temples, and it would allow missionaries without monasteries. But we are likely to need enough missionaries that building a few monasteries in high hammer cities and cranking missionaries non-stop might be cheaper and equally effective. Just something to consider.100% on wanting OR. Unless we run a religion we won't get the building benefit though. With the amount of missionaries we are going to have to build there is no point in limiting the amount of cities we can build them from. Fastest route to spreading should be the main aim from now
Sounds reasonable. If that is the plan, do we want to consider planting some filler cities if they have decent resources? We could place a city SW of CS, for example, with the wheat and copper, which would fill in space once the Buddhist holy city is taken. Each extra city will need a missionary later (or two, or more potentially if failures occur), but will not cost too much and adds a place to build a temple or two.Grabbing land for domination limits would always be a help.
Every great priest settled counts as 4 temples. Maybe it's worthwhile to build Angkor in our NE city for the priest slots? Add a few temples for even more slots and we might well pop 3 or 4, after a GS for astro ofc.
Note that we actually have a settled prophet already, courtesy of Louis. So only 66 more temples to go!
Angkor Wat would be possible, although it would take a while for MA to build it even with stone. And if we want NE there, we need to also build a library first. Really, unless we get 2+ prophets I would think using them for golden ages would be better, with an empire as large as ours.
I'm not afraid of the AP this game at all. Nobody has religions yet and likely we can easily block any vote, more so with our interest in spreading religions anyway.
I am worried about it getting built for a religion that we do not get much of, just by the random roll of the virtual dice. But I think we can always conquer it if we must.
I would trade philo for calendar/lit with Cathie. No use for us in this game anyway besides opening the astro bulb. Also Nap had 210 gold get that as well. Nocho mentioned how to change research with a vassal. Always good directing there research.. .
Pausing after 3 turns sounds good and we can evaluate from there. I would like to see some units heading towards the Christian cities though as the religion spreading will be our slow point.
We do not exactly have a lot to hit Napoleon with, right now. Plus we have several captured cities with minimal defenses that he could attack. We can fix that with some time, but is Napoleon really the most important target?
We have 24 cities currently. I have 2 settlement spots in mind -- wheat/copper SW of CS, once the Buddhist holy city culture is removed, and gems/crabs on the north coast. Need a trireme there to protect the seafood, but with the gems it will be well worth it.
Pausing after 3 turns sounds good and we can evaluate from there. I would like to see some units heading towards the Christian cities though as the religion spreading will be our slow point.
Already have 3 moving that way. I intend to take the Hindu holy city (obviously first), plus start shuffling units around the mountains for the Buddhist holy city. Some units heading for the Christian area, and will try to get some boats up to the Confucian area as well.
One more question: now that Catherine is our vassal, what to do with our EP and our spy? We would need another 12-15 turns of EP at our current rate to have enough to steal a tech from Catherine. Keep the EP going? Move to someone else? Move our spy elsewhere while we wait? Other?
Philo (bar trading) is no use in this game for us so trading for a cheapish tech like calendar won't affect us.
I'd sell aesthetics to Nap for his 210 gold that will see us through optics and then see what GP we get. Astro will still need a lot of beakers regardless.
EP possibly steal money from her? Set EP to other AI to get to see there demographics. Don't think it makes a lot of difference now.
- Yes to trading philo away for calendar, literature and cash. If Cathy still has cash afterwards, fine to use the spy to steal her remaining cash.
- Yes to getting cash for aesthetics from Napoleon
- Yes to Optics asap. We want some caravels asap! At least one from Ankara to scout the southern island. We have 11 triremes tight now (can't remember ever having that many! ), possibly we could upgrade some. St Pete's trireme build will it convert to caravel? Would be good too. Wanna scout confu island too. In any case circumnavigation might be appealing, if only for the eventual invasion of England.
- I'd put EP on Churchill probably, but won't matter too much. Getting to know power ratios to remaining AIs might be nice. Maybe somebody else will peace vassal? Napoleon possibly if we boost relations and such?
- I'd build HE in CS and settle the GG there (3rd supermedic not necessary imo). It looks out of the way, but it really isn't that much at all. Build a road SE of Vladivostok and we reach Roman lands diagonally NW quicker than from any other city. Besides, it's our strongest hammer city.
- Maybe for the NE Tours is an option. Leaves MA for unit production (closer to the front). It has a lot of wood to chop into NE. For the kicks of it, we could also try and chop Angkor here first and then NE. I do think popping some priests could be useful for getting the needed temple count down. Also fine to just go for NE here though.
- Check cities for CHs. St Pete for instance needs one still. Beach Club needs a LH too.
- Stonehenge was a nice gift from Louis actually. Once we're close to astro, maybe be aware to let some borders pop before actually getting astro and obsoleting SH. I'm referring if we have several cities at 8 or 9 culture out of 10. Minor thing, obviously.
OK, played 3 turns. We did get our GS. Unfortunately he will only bulb about 4/7 of Astro...and the remainder will take us quite a while.
Quick summary:
- Traded Philo to Catherine for Lit + Calendar + gold.
- Successfully stole additional gold from Catherine.
- Sold Aesthetics to Napoleon for his gold. Mono would not have gotten all his gold.
- Shuffled troops, built troops, built infra (courthouses, mostly, a couple forges, lighthouses where needed).
- Completed Heroic Epic in CS. It is 1-turning elephants now. Settled GG here as well for more XP.
- Learned that triremes in queue do not auto-upgrade to caravels. Building some caravels now.
- The castle in the Hindu holy city is annoying. Our cats only do 2% damage each per turn...not exactly blowing the walls down. Should have enough troops in position in another turn or two, though.
- Troops are approaching the Christian holy city of "Paulopolis". I am loving the names, Pollux! We could try for Peteropolis this turn but it would be risky; it will fall for sure next turn so probably do that instead. Castle in Paulopolis is annoying but probably will just try to overwhelm the archers there rather than waiting forever for cats.
- Buddhist holy city has annoying pre-placed forts on hills to prevent easy ferrying of troops. (Evil map maker! ) Will try to start getting some troops down there soon, with something to cover some cats to begin the slow bombardment process.
- Once we bulb the GS into Astro, there are lots of options to get CS for macemen. Unless we want to hold off for the next GP in 19 turns from Rheims...about 60% likely to be GS.
- Setting up for Angkor Wat in Tours as suggested. Couple forests pre-chopped, could wait until more are pre-chopped? Or just go ahead, and if someone beats us to the wonder we get useful fail gold. This is one area we have not done much with this game...fail gold.
- Cancelled a bunch of out-dated deals for resources we now have multiples of. Sold something (cow?) to Napoleon for his 4 gpt.
Anyway, save is uploaded for your inspection. Probably just keep on with current efforts, aiming to grab the Hindu and Christian holy cities ASAP then go after the Buddhists and Confucians. Keep accumulating troops (lots of elephants, lots and lots of cats, mix of other stuff) for war with Rome and England (or whoever).
Upload log:
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 680 AD to 740 AD:
Turn 144, 680 AD: Catherine has agreed to become a vassal state of Mehmed
Turn 144, 680 AD: You have discovered Literature!
Turn 144, 680 AD: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 144, 680 AD: The borders of Yekaterinburg have expanded!
Turn 144, 680 AD: The borders of Cherbourg have expanded!
Turn 144, 680 AD: The borders of Poitiers have expanded!
Turn 145, 700 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cherbourg!
Turn 145, 700 AD: Whip MA
Turn 145, 700 AD: Rheims has grown to size 10.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Ghuzz has grown to size 8.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Poitiers has grown to size 2.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Bursa has been pacified.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Lyons has become happy.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Victoria is the worst enemy of Napoleon.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Catherine will trade Civil Service, Music
Turn 145, 700 AD: Napoleon will trade Civil Service
Turn 145, 700 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 145, 700 AD: You have trained a Spearman in Amiens. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman (6.00) vs Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) (5.00)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Combat Odds: 73.0%
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 145, 700 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman has defeated Mehmed's Catapult 14 (Horse Farm)!
Turn 145, 700 AD: While defending, your Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) was destroyed by a Barbarian Swordsman!
Turn 146, 720 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cherbourg!
Turn 146, 720 AD: Istanbul has grown to size 9.
Turn 146, 720 AD: Ankara has grown to size 12.
Turn 146, 720 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 8.
Turn 146, 720 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 9.
Turn 146, 720 AD: Rouen has grown to size 6.
Turn 146, 720 AD: The borders of Rouen are about to expand.
Turn 146, 720 AD: The borders of Chartres are about to expand.
Turn 146, 720 AD: Your Catapult 16 (Copper Summit) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 98%!
Turn 146, 720 AD: Your Catapult 17 (Horse Farm) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 96%!
Turn 146, 720 AD: You have constructed a Stable in Marble Arch. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.
Turn 146, 720 AD: James Clerk Maxwell (Great Scientist) has been born in Marble Arch (Mehmed)!
Turn 146, 720 AD: You have trained a Trireme in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 146, 720 AD: The borders of Rouen have expanded!
Turn 146, 720 AD: The borders of Chartres have expanded!
Turn 146, 720 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Poitiers. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 147, 740 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cherbourg!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Windmill at Ghuzz
Turn 147, 740 AD: Horse Farm has grown to size 13.
Turn 147, 740 AD: Cherbourg has grown to size 3.
Turn 147, 740 AD: Tours has grown to size 6.
Turn 147, 740 AD: The borders of Istanbul are about to expand.
Turn 147, 740 AD: Victoria will trade Civil Service
Turn 147, 740 AD: Your Catapult 16 (Copper Summit) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 94%!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Your Catapult 17 (Horse Farm) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 92%!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Your Catapult 18 (Edirne) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 90%!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Your Catapult 21 (Horse Farm) has reduced the defenses of Sindhu Island to 88%!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Amiens.
Turn 147, 740 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Bursa.
Turn 147, 740 AD: Deal Canceled: Cow to Churchill
Turn 147, 740 AD: Deal Canceled: Copper to Churchill for Fur, Gold
Turn 147, 740 AD: Deal Canceled: Cow to Catherine for Rice
Turn 147, 740 AD: Deal Canceled: Sheep to Catherine
BUFFY log:
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 144/500 (680 AD) [13-Sep-2014 13:25:09] Catherine becomes a Vassal State of Mehmed Marble Arch begins: Stable (3 turns) Rheims begins: Catapult (8 turns) Ghuzz begins: Galley (4 turns) Chartres begins: Work Boat (6 turns) Rostov begins: Catapult (3 turns) Rostov begins: Spearman (2 turns) Yekaterinburg begins: Galley (9 turns) Beach Club begins: Galley (7 turns) Amiens begins: Spearman (3 turns)
Tech traded to Catherine (Russia): Philosophy Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Literature Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Calendar Tech traded to Napoleon (France): Aesthetics Copper Summit begins: Heroic Epic (4 turns) 100% Research: 395 per turn 0% Espionage: 24 per turn 0% Gold: -338 per turn, 953 in the bank
After End Turn: Horse Farm finishes: Catapult Rheims grows to size 10 Ghuzz grows to size 8 Ghuzz finishes: Galley Yekaterinburg's borders expand Cherbourg's borders expand Cherbourg finishes: Courthouse Poitiers grows to size 2 Poitiers's borders expand Tours finishes: Courthouse
Turn 145/500 (700 AD) [13-Sep-2014 18:29:00] Diplomacy: Julius Caesar (Rome) offers to trade Civil Service to Mehmed (Ottomans) for Philosophy Diplomacy: Mehmed (Ottomans) rejects trade of Philosophy to Julius Caesar (Rome) for Civil Service Horse Farm begins: War Elephant (3 turns) Ghuzz begins: Forge (9 turns) Cherbourg begins: Lighthouse (8 turns) Tours begins: Angkor Wat (50 turns) A Windmill was built near Amiens Horse Archer 29 (Copper Summit) promoted: Combat I Amiens begins: Courthouse (6 turns) 100% Research: 406 per turn 0% Espionage: 28 per turn 0% Gold: -340 per turn, 615 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Yekaterinburg The whip was applied in Orleans Tech research finished: Optics Silver Lining finishes: War Elephant Istanbul grows to size 9 Istanbul finishes: Work Boat Edirne finishes: Catapult Ankara grows to size 12 Ankara finishes: Work Boat Rostov finishes: Spearman St. Petersburg grows to size 8 Yekaterinburg grows to size 9 Amiens finishes: Spearman Rouen grows to size 6 Cherbourg finishes: Lighthouse Orleans finishes: Courthouse
Other Player Actions: While defending in Barbarian territory at Sindhu Island, Catapult 14 (Horse Farm) loses to Barbarian Swordsman (2.76/6) (Prob Victory: 27.0%)
Turn 146/500 (720 AD) [13-Sep-2014 19:01:50] Research begun: Astronomy (9 Turns) Silver Lining begins: War Elephant (2 turns) Istanbul begins: Lighthouse (3 turns) Edirne begins: Stable (3 turns) Ankara begins: Caravel (3 turns) Rostov begins: Courthouse (5 turns) Cherbourg begins: Caravel (12 turns) Cherbourg begins: Work Boat (6 turns) A Plantation was built near Fish 'n' Whale A Farm was built near Poitiers St. Petersburg begins: Courthouse (5 turns) Beach Club begins: Courthouse (9 turns) Poitiers begins: Courthouse (10 turns) 0% Research: 22 per turn 0% Espionage: 30 per turn 100% Gold: 9 per turn, 275 in the bank
After End Turn: Horse Farm grows to size 13 Copper Summit finishes: Heroic Epic Marble Arch finishes: Stable James Clerk Maxwell (Great Scientist) born in Marble Arch St. Petersburg finishes: Trireme Rouen's borders expand Cherbourg grows to size 3 Chartres's borders expand Poitiers finishes: Forge Tours grows to size 6
Turn 147/500 (740 AD) [13-Sep-2014 19:29:26] Copper Summit begins: War Elephant (1 turns) Archer 17 (Marble Arch) promoted: City Garrison I St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat (2 turns) St. Petersburg begins: Courthouse (5 turns) A Windmill was built near Ghuzz A Farm was built near Orleans
Fail gold is good indeed, just chop all that wood directly. I'd be fine to build NE first though. We could also whip things into both NE and AW. IIRC a WB was also needed, you got one?
While we need astro, it's no immediate need, so go ahead and bulb it. We'll finish it before those 19 turns. CS is nice for chain irrigation (at copper summit for example) and maces too.
A triple switch (rep, bur, OR) might be in the making but given our size will be a lot of anarchy. Can we get that next GP sooner for a GA? Whip a market or something for more slots?
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Especially since we will certainly need at least one missionary for each one if we keep them. Of course we will need at least one missionary for all of our cities, but if we are close to completing all objectives then keeping cities may become unnecessary.
That will let us continue on Optics until we can get to Astro.
Cathy is a vassal, not a permanent ally.
![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
), possibly we could upgrade some. St Pete's trireme build will it convert to caravel? Would be good too. Wanna scout confu island too. In any case circumnavigation might be appealing, if only for the eventual invasion of England.
Building some caravels now.
Should have enough troops in position in another turn or two, though.
