SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Ronnie1]

What if we want to 2 pop whip the settler and overflow to complete a Granary in 1 turn?

 

[haphazard1]

We are making 2* while building the granary also, why are you in a hurry to whip it? The benefit shows up on the following growth as you noted. There is no benefit except whip anger wearing off sooner to whipping immediately. But we do get 2* for those few turns if we wait, and it costs us virtually nothing.

We are not really getting 2H per turn, though. Instead the granary just costs half the normal price. We can't overflow those theoretical 2H/turn, because they will be reduced by half, and we can't 2-pop whip the granary for more overflow. So there really isn't any reason not to whip the granary sooner, and start counting down the whip anger timer.

I think another worker before another settler the more I think about it. We could even grow to size 4, 2 pop whip the settler with near max overflow and complete a Granary at size 2 in 1 turn.

Hmmm. Interesting idea to 2-pop the settler. I have run some scenarios and it looks like we can get the settler one turn later compared to building it at size 3, with one chop (the sheep tile) in each case. The granary finishes after 10 turns in each case, with the size 3 scenario having 9 hammers more in overflow (15 vs. 6). But the 2-pop scenario gives us 24 hammers into something while we grow, presumably a barracks unless we want to build warriors instead. So we net 15 hammers for a 1-turn delay in the settler. The size 3 scenario also generates a bit more commerce since it works the riverside mine rather than the forested sheep...hmmm, looks like 4C.

Build settler at size 3, working cows/sheep/mine, worker chopping sheep tile:

1T - worker finishes
7T - settler finishes with chop (+5F, 7H) = 84 + 20 = 104
1T - start granary (4 overflow *2 = 8, + 7*2 H = 22H
1T - 1-pop whip granary for 30*2 = 60 + 22 + 4*2 H = 90H, halve overflow for 15H

Result: Size 2, Settler after 8T, granary complete at 10T with 15 hammers overflow

Grow to size 4, then 2-pop settler for max overflow:

1T - worker finishes
4T - grow to size 4 working cow/sheep/sheep (can not work mine as need max food), worker avoids chop and does combined pasture/chop action instead
3T - on settler, 14 FH/turn (+5F, 9H) = 42
1T - on settler, chop/pasture completes for 20; 2-pop whip settler; 42 + 20 + 60 + (+6F4H at size 2) = 132, overflow 32
1T - granary completes with 32*2 + 4*2 = 72 = 6 overflow after halving

Result: Size 2, settler after 9T, granary complete at 10T with 6 overflow, have 28H in something

The new city 1 turn earlier would not generate 15 hammers, so the grow to size 4 scenario looks pretty decent. This assumes we do want the settler + granary before a third worker. We could build the third worker first at size 3, with +5F7H (+1 EXP bonus hammer) it would take 5 turns and would have a bit of overflow. Or we complete the sheep chop 4 turns in and have quite a bit of overflow. We delay the settler by about 4 turns but gain 8 or 9 worker turns.

To me it seems the granary whip pretty much coincides in time with settler ready (given the chop), so I'd really recommend postponing the revolt. We'll settle next city a turn earlier thanks to it.

If we wait until after the settler to build worker #3 then the timing would work out fairly close -- within a couple turns. So we could delay the revolt until the settler is walking. But if we choose for worker #3 before the settler then I think we should revolt after worker #2 is done.

Haven't seen the save yet though, so don't know the unit situation and defensive needs. But if we have 3 warriors now (and the archer), 2 of those warriors should be around SL and the new city site respectively.

Well, "should" would be the word for it. The warriors have all been sent out exploring. We can recall warrior 1 to the copper site and warrior 2 to Silver Lining if we prefer, but it will take a few turns and stop exploration.

 

[Ronnie1]

@h1, You were the one that said to chop into workers!

2 pop whipping the settler and finishing the Granary in 1 turn at size 2 just seems to make sense to me.

 

[haphazard1]

@h1, You were the one that said to chop into workers!

And we can, if a third worker before the settler is what we want. Our next two chops are driven by the fact that we want to improve the sheep and silver tiles, not by a need for hammers. So it is just a question of priorities: what do we want first? A settler for a third city, a third worker, barracks, other?

2 pop whipping the settler and finishing the Granary in 1 turn at size 2 just seems to make sense to me.

It does work fairly well in this instance, as I tried to outline above. (Apologies if my description of the build sequences is not clear.) Net result of the 2-pop whip approach was that we get the settler 1 turn later, gaining 15 hammers and losing 4 commerce. Is that a worthwhile trade?

We can optimize in a number of different ways -- chops, whips, growth, etc. But first we need to decide what we want and in what order.

On another topic, what do we want out of Horse Farm? Do we want a chariot as early as possible? Or do we want to build the barracks so that future chariots will have a promotion? One chariot earlier would let us explore around Suleiman's borders, which would give us valuable info for a future rush. But I always hate building units with a barracks partway completed. Given the heavy forest/jungle we could get much the same scouting info from a warrior, if we had one to spare.

 

[nocho]

It seems the warriors barely moved since my set, so they didn't do all that much exploring. Which is fine with me. I think southern warrior and archer should together see to covering the bronze site until it's settled. The warrior that just left SL imo can just stay at the city. The original warrior near marble can maybe unfog some more tiles around there. Afterwards I'd keep him somewhat in the area and monitor how Peter expands. Maybe we can still settle around there (city 4). I think it's fine to build a chariot from WheatHorse (or however you'll rename it ) without promos if it's for scouting purposes.

2 pop whipping settler into granary sounds as a reasonable plan too. What would we be growing on from size 3 to 4 though, barracks? Another warrior imo isn't really needed, we should soon scout with chariots anyways.

Oh wait, you say there's a turn between settler at size 3 and size 4, but in the latter case we need to revolt to slavery obviously. So that's 2 turns difference in actually settling, right? Might prefer first option then. The second sheep would be about ready when we grow again (after settler, from 3 to 4), which looks like nice timing. Maybe wouldn't even whip the granary then, just build naturally.

I generally would prefer to settle asap. WheatCity by the way could be a worker factory at size 2 or 3 (with mine).

 

[haphazard1]

The original warrior near marble can maybe unfog some more tiles around there. Afterwards I'd keep him somewhat in the area and monitor how Peter expands. Maybe we can still settle around there (city 4).

From the score list, we can see that Peter and Julius are the only two civs still on one city. Going for wonders at size 1, maybe? Hard to see them remaining size 1 much longer, even if they are. But it is an interesting thought to see if we could still get the marble site as city #4. I think we need worker #3 after the settler for copper city, but if Peter has still not claimed marble by that point we can consider another settler.

Or...greedy thought. What about sending our next settler to the marble, with another settler after to claim copper? From what we can see, the copper site should not be contested by any of the AIs. At least not for some time. So we could almost certainly delay it and still get it, while the marble site may be gone pretty quickly.

Oh wait, you say there's a turn between settler at size 3 and size 4, but in the latter case we need to revolt to slavery obviously. So that's 2 turns difference in actually settling, right? Might prefer first option then.

This is a good point. Building the settler at size 3 means we can delay the revolt to slavery until the settler is walking, and thus would settle copper city (or marble city, greedy) 2 turns earlier.

The second sheep would be about ready when we grow again (after settler, from 3 to 4), which looks like nice timing. Maybe wouldn't even whip the granary then, just build naturally.

Once we finish the settler, we probably want another worker. And maybe even another settler.... Finding time to grow the capital is tough here. A granary would speed subsequent growth, but not the next growth. So it is tempting to 1-pop whip the granary at size 3 and do the granary-filling growth at size 2. Or wait until the second sheep is pastured and grow at size 3 using all three pastures for +8 food/turn. Should be able to get growth in 4 turns either way, I think.

 

[nocho]

I like your greediness. Copper is fairly safely ours anyways. Like before, I'd eye horse/cow/crab first, which basically secures more cities beyond.

I'm wondering if an early rush is all that necessary if we also manage to secure cities north. If we do, elepulting both Sulei and Peter might be a better idea.

 

[Ronnie1]

It seems the warriors barely moved since my set, so they didn't do all that much exploring.

The south warrior came back SE to defog the copper site! We don't want a barb city spawning there.

The original warrior has been dancing with a bear and a lion for 8 turns. I never got good odds against just the lion. I was trying to move him SE, just hasn't been safe.

So it is tempting to 1-pop whip the granary at size 3 and do the granary-filling growth at size 2.

I am not in favor of 1 pop whipping the granary in SL, I think it is inefficient. I would much rather 2 pop whip anything with near max overflow and fully build the granary the subsequent turn with the overflow. If we time the food bar properly, we will grow back to size 4 very quickly working 2*sheep = cow.

I also think we should build/chop worker 3 before any settlers. We can have another worker in 3 turns if we chop. I'm sure roading alone can save those 3 turns in settler movement.

I would prefer to not go crazy chopping before Math either. 50% is significant, it is mitigated a bit when chopping into workers/granaries. I think we are better off whipping every 10 turns than chopping in the short run.

I can see settling NE next also, the copper site seems safe for a bit anyway. My only concern is we have to start managing the economy if we are going for a 4 city start. We will need to get the silvers on line and probably put down some cottages also.

 

[haphazard1]

I like your greediness. Copper is fairly safely ours anyways. Like before, I'd eye horse/cow/crab first, which basically secures more cities beyond.

I'm wondering if an early rush is all that necessary if we also manage to secure cities north. If we do, elepulting both Sulei and Peter might be a better idea.

Waiting for elepults is a possibility, nocho. Although I do have some alternate thoughts below....

The south warrior came back SE to defog the copper site! We don't want a barb city spawning there.

The original warrior has been dancing with a bear and a lion for 8 turns. I never got good odds against just the lion. I was trying to move him SE, just hasn't been safe.

Good point about spawn-busting the copper area. Warrior 1 will focus on that. We can explore more later, once we have some chariots or other 2-movers available. And I will be careful with warrior 0. Don't want to lose him to a simple animal! Especially with his CG1 and enough XP for a second promo. He can become garrison for a marble city.

I am not in favor of 1 pop whipping the granary in SL, I think it is inefficient. I would much rather 2 pop whip anything with near max overflow and fully build the granary the subsequent turn with the overflow. If we time the food bar properly, we will grow back to size 4 very quickly working 2*sheep = cow.

If the timing can be managed, this would work well. Best 2-pop candidate is probably a barracks, or possibly a worker (although overflow gets reduced by the EXP factor). Efficiency in terms of unhappiness is not really a factor at the moment, as whip anger will have plenty of time to wear off. Saving the turn with granary in queue to avoid the whip penalty is more of an issue.

I also think we should build/chop worker 3 before any settlers. We can have another worker in 3 turns if we chop. I'm sure roading alone can save those 3 turns in settler movement.

I disagree here, because I think if we want the marble site (and being greedy I do! ) we need to get a settler there ASAP. And roading will not save us 3 turns -- it might save one. But we will quickly want the third worker, and then probably a fourth as well before the settler for copper.

I would prefer to not go crazy chopping before Math either. 50% is significant, it is mitigated a bit when chopping into workers/granaries. I think we are better off whipping every 10 turns than chopping in the short run.

Agree. The only chops I am currently planning are the sheep and silver tiles, because we have to chop them to improve them. I don't see anything else we are that desperate for right now, and we can do some whipping (or soon will be able to) as needed.

I can see settling NE next also, the copper site seems safe for a bit anyway. My only concern is we have to start managing the economy if we are going for a 4 city start. We will need to get the silvers on line and probably put down some cottages also.

OK, here is my thinking on the "big picture" right now:

What is the purpose of an early rush? (HAs or axes or whatever) It is to obtain quality cities. Usually an AI capital will be better than just about any other site, and there is the chance to obtain a free religion or wonder from the AI. Of course you also weaken/eliminate some competition, but that is usually much less important than the cities gained.

In this game, we have two very strong sites available without having to go to war: the marble region with at least 4 strong resources depending just where we plant, and the copper site with 5 strong resources. Not quite as good as an AI capital, but very strong sites. So grabbing these two before we start warring seems like a very good move to me.

Also, no AI capital in this game is going to be a holy city. So far none of the AIs have a religion at all. So that opportunity is not a factor. But wonders are a possible factor. And it just happens that one of our neighbors (Peter) is still at size 1 and has stone in his capital's BFC. I hope this means he is building Stonehenge for us. Julius might beat him to it, I guess, but let's hope Peter is very productive here.

All this leads me to the following strategy:

- Settle a marble city ASAP. Strong city site, makes sure we have future access further east and north where we have scouted many additional resources.
- Settle the copper site soon after the marble city. Very strong city site, makes sure we have future access south and west. We knew there is another barb city there, possibly a holy city, so a future target of some importance. There are also good resources already visible in this direction.
- This gets us out to four strong cities, with a very solid base of production. We will need to make sure our economy stays afloat, but two silver tiles and some cottages should easily handle that.
- Rush Peter if he does manage to complete Stonehenge in his capital, and solve our border-popping issues. Whether this is done with HAs or axes, we should have 4 cities against his (probable) 2, and should be able to muster enough military strength to crush him.

If Peter does not build us a wonder, then we can consider instead rushing Suleiman since we can never have positive relations with him. Suleiman already has a second city and will likely soon add a third. But if he is too strong then we just rush Peter instead, or even just keep expanding while researching towards elepults.

This puts our immediate focus on settling two more cities and getting at least the beginnings of a real economy going. But our tech path after Pottery can be along military lines to prepare for a slightly later rush.

Thoughts?

 

[BSPollux]

Seems like this time everyone will be waiting for you. We were allready done playing at this time during the last game. Well, not realy...

 

[haphazard1]

We are not going quite that slowly, Pollux!

We do need to pick up the pace slightly. But there have been a lot of crucial decisions in these early turns.

 

[haphazard1]

In the interests of maintaining a decent game pace, here is a revised PPP based on the strategy I described a couple posts back. (Quick summary: Be greedy and settler city #3 at the marble, followed by city #4 for the copper.)

Goals

- Research Pottery for cheap granaries, then shift to HBR for HA rush path
- Settle third city to claim the marble (plus horse and cow and seafood)

Stopping conditions

- Settle our third city
- Any AI DOW or goes WHEOOHRN
- Meet remaining two AIs (allows hidden objective to be revealed)
- Barb attack on our cities
- Religion spreads to us
- Unexpected issues

Research

Use binary research for Pottery, followed by HBR

City Builds

- Silver Lining will complete worker (1 turn), then start another settler (9 turns, but should be sped up by a chop). Follow with another worker (should also be sped up by a chop).
- Horse Farm will continue building barracks until horses are connected. Then switch to a chariot. Will invest 1 turn in a granary and then 1-pop whip when timing (food bar half full, slavery in effect) allows.

Worker Actions

- Alex finishes wheat farm at Horse Farm, then pasture the horses and road them. Then mine the grass hill.
- Billy (once completed by Silver Lining) will move to the forested sheep tile and chop the forest. Then pasture the sheep. After move to the silver tile and chop -> mine it.

Unit Actions

- Warrior 0 (our starting warrior) fog busts the marble area, waiting for the settler to arrive. Then garrison the city.
- Warrior 1 moves to the copper city location and fog busts, preventing any barb city from spawning.
- Warrior 2 returns to the capital and garrisons it.
- Scout continues cautiously exploring around French borders.
- Archer 0 remains fortified in Horse Farm.

Religion

Don't have any yet.

Civics

Revolt to Slavery after Silver Lining completes the settler for the marble city.

Espionage

Continue all points on Suleiman.

Questions and Open Issues

- On which tile should we settle the marble city? There are multiple possible options, but remember that we can not pop borders any time soon.
- Do we want to continue all EP on Suleiman?

Other thoughts, concerns, things I have forgotten to include?

 

[BSPollux]

You shouldnt care about me, take your time!

 

[adrianj]

I'll add one other reason why an early rush is good: We will have an army to defend with if Suli decides to attack us.

I am still in favour of an HA rush.

Yes, the marble site is 'ok'. It's not great until we have removed the barb triremes and have access to the seafood. Without them, it's just a food poor city on the plains.

In my opinion, the sheep+silver site and then the AI capitals are better options. To be clear, if we rush Suli and then Peter, we WILL get the marble site in due course. It's not like we are giving it up completely.

Delaying the copper site isn't just about delaying connecting a resource. It also delays us working some excellent tiles: silver, copper, sheep. With 4 forests to chop into Granary + Barracks.


EP: Perhaps we should consider which AI might be a strong techer, and candidate to steal techs from in the future. Perhaps Catherine?

Edit: Please note, I'm happy to be outvoted in anything. I can also accept that settling a Marble city does not preclude a HA rush, merely delaying the start of it.

 

[Ronnie1]

I'm more in line with aj here. On the marble is a great site. That is not an option imo at this juncture. The southern site is an early rush feast! Hopefully Math won't take too long after Archery so we can chop at will. I think a 3 city start allows us to keep teching at a decent pace, especially once we get both silvers on line. For these reasons I still like worker now and worker next chop aided.

We can 2 pop whip our other Settler and get a 1 turn Granary out of it. We have time to build our barracks. We should be in a great position by the time we can build HA's! Kill off Suli and then look north. As an aside, based on aj's earlier post about AI DOW logic, not sharing a border in the north is benefit for us in the short run.

 

[haphazard1]

All the reaction to the greedy plan seems to be negative, so we can stick to the three city HA rush plan. Here is version 3 of the draft PPP.

Goals

- Research Pottery for cheap granaries, then shift to HBR for HA rush path
- Settle third city to claim the copper (plus silver and sheep)

Stopping conditions

- Settle our third city
- Any AI DOWs or goes WHEOOHRN
- Meet remaining two AIs (allows hidden objective to be revealed)
- Barb attack on our cities
- Religion spreads to us
- Unexpected issues

Research

Use binary research for Pottery, followed by HBR

City Builds

- Silver Lining will complete worker (1 turn), then start another worker (should be sped up by a chop). Follow with barracks to grow to size 4, then switch to a settler for the copper site (planned 2-pop whip for max overflow into a granary).
- Horse Farm will continue building barracks until horses are connected. Then switch to a chariot. Will invest 1 turn in a granary and then 1-pop whip when timing (food bar half full, slavery in effect) allows.

Worker Actions

- Alex finishes wheat farm at Horse Farm, then pastures the horses and roads them. Then mine the grass hill.
- Billy (once completed by Silver Lining) will move to the forested sheep tile and chop the forest (speed up worker Charlie). Then pasture the sheep. After move to the silver tile and chop -> mine it.
- Charlie (once completed by Silver Lining) will join Billy in pasturing the sheep. (This is a bit wasteful of worker turns by moving into hills, but I don't see a better option that does not delay the sheep pasture by a turn.) Then head for the copper site via the southern road, and build road link 2E of copper and on city site to save 1 turn on settler movement. (Warrior 1 will provide cover.)

Unit Actions

- Warrior 0 (our starting warrior) fog busts the marble area, and generally keeps an eye on the northeast. Be careful of barb animals.
- Warrior 1 moves to the copper city location and fog busts, preventing any barb city from spawning. Will also cover worker Charlie once he arrives.
- Warrior 2 returns to the capital and garrisons it.
- Scout continues cautiously exploring around French borders.
- Archer 0 remains fortified in Horse Farm.

Religion

Don't have any yet.

Civics

Revolt to Slavery after Silver Lining completes worker Charlie.

Espionage

Continue all points on Suleiman.

Questions and Open Issues

- On which tile should we settle the marble city? There are multiple possible options, but remember that we can not pop borders any time soon.
- Do we want to continue all EP on Suleiman? Or switch to a possible future tech leader for possible future steals? If so, who?

Other thoughts, concerns, things I have forgotten to include?

 

[adrianj]

All the reaction to the greedy plan seems to be negative

It's not overwhelmingly negative, it's definitely an idea worth discussing. Yourself and nocho are in favour, Ron and I are opposed. McA expressed a preference for HA rush before you made your updated suggestion. dV, Ororo and Sleepy also haven't given an opinion.

Having said that, of course I'm happy for you to come to our side of the fence


PPP looks good to me. Is the marble site still an open question? Regarding EP, I think Catherine could be a good choice.

 

[nocho]

I should mention I'm on holidays now with the family, but I'll stay moderately connected and have my laptop with me for an occasional look at the save.

I indeed like the greediness, but HA plan isn't all that awful either. I would like to squeeze in myst before HBR however. The haul to HBR is a good moment to build monuments anyway. HAs need archery and therefore hunting, might as well have those hunting resources available by then. The extra happy and food by then will more than offset the time needed to tech myst. HBR is not the goal, but x number of HAs at turn t; t won't go up noticeably by going myst first, possibly even down.

 

[haphazard1]

Is the marble site still an open question?

The balance of opinions seems to be leaning against going for the marble site, and sticking to a 3-city HA rush. Maybe we will hear from more of the team? Lots of people not available right now, being vacation season for many.

Regarding EP, I think Catherine could be a good choice.

Out of the AIs we have met, I have no idea who might be a good tech steal target. The two French civs are leading in score, but I don't really think of either Louis or Napoleon as strong techers. Neither of the Romans are especially good at research either. Catherine is coastal to her north, has Peter to her east, and has us to her southeast -- I am not sure how well she is going to do in this game. Although maybe she has good land to her west/southwest?

I would actually say Suleiman is probably the best techer of the bunch. But he is obviously not an option since we do not plan to leave him alive long enough to steal from.... I guess Catherine is as good a choice as any.

I would like to squeeze in myst before HBR however. The haul to HBR is a good moment to build monuments anyway. HAs need archery and therefore hunting, might as well have those hunting resources available by then. The extra happy and food by then will more than offset the time needed to tech myst. HBR is not the goal, but x number of HAs at turn t; t won't go up noticeably by going myst first, possibly even down.

Our cities do have a decent build list while we work through the HA rush techs: granaries, barracks, stables. Since stables require HBR they have to come during Hunting/Archery research. But we need to fit in granaries and barracks while teching HBR. Is there time to include monuments as well? We will get 2 silvers online (although not immediately) and probably a cottage apiece in Silver Lining and Horse Farm (also not immediately).

Expanded borders would provide more happiness (elephants at Horse Farm) and more food (2 deer at Copper Summit). Not to mention better control of the local area and cultural defense. I am just not sure how much it might delay getting HAs out, or possibly other supporting military. It would be nice to build an axe and a spear or two once copper is hooked up, just in case, if we had the time/hammers available.

 

[adrianj]

If we can pop borders in Horse Farm to claim ivory, the extra +1 can be translated into an extra HA per city via the whip. We won't be able to chop the jungle until IW though, so the ivory tile isn't particularly great.

Another benefit of popping borders in Silver Sheep is it will gain an extra 6 forests that can be chopped.

Summary: Mysticism before HBR sounds ok to me.

Continuing on past HBR/Archery... two techs that would be great to have ASAP are Alphabet for tech trading and Maths for better chopping. With a bit of luck, the AI will tech both of these for us, and we can pick them up by sharing HBR. Maybe a little investment into Alpha required.

One other option to consider: Mysticism from trade? *If* we pick up Alphabet by trading out HBR, we could get Mysticism "for free" in a subsequent deal. Main issues with this approach are the big *If* and that it won't be available until after we learn HBR.

Second option to consider: Mysticism through begging a pleased AI to give it to us literally for free. Recall the begging value formula is (50+turns)*2 'begging points'. A 'begging point' is about 0.5 , or ~0.5. At a cost of 81, we might be able to beg for it after knowing an AI for 32 turns. Obviously AI or us must have knowledge of Alphabet, and they must be pleased with us. Keep in mind it also uses up one of our WFYABTA points.

We might also consider begging Hunting or Archery from a different AI. Same conditions apply.

(Begging: See post #12 of this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6224468#post6224468)